Talk:Solar system/Archive 4

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Talk archives for Solar system (current talk page)
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Contents 1 Formation of the solar system 2 Good article nomination 3 Image for "Hypothetical planets" 4 Reference wanted 5 External Link Added 6 Good work 7 Length 8 orbital radiuses table 9 I need to settle this 10 What would it take to get this article up to feature quality? 11 Good Article Review 12 Good Article nomination has failed 13 The Linkspam issue 14 Twelve Planets 15 Wikipedia is not a crystal ball 16 Template 17 FA Status? 18 Earth and Moon: A double planet? 19 Out of curiosity 20 Recent reclassification of planets 21 Former Planet Comment 22 Not to scale? 23 Definition of solar system not complete 24 "a trans-neptunian object" 25 "Definition" 25.1 Definition 26 Capitalize Solar System? 27 Layout - removed text 28 Move to Sol Star System 29 Move to Solar System 29.1 Discussion 30 layout of the solar system 31 units 32 Asteroids 33 Pluto 34 matter 35 Why are Pluto, Ceres and Xena listed separately from their populations? 35.1 Reorganization of Solar system to keep in line with the 2006 redefinition of planet 35.2 This is an article about the solar system 36 Layout of Photos & text in article 37 Regarding relative distances of orbits and the Kuiper belt 38 "Rafie's Law" 39 Voortle, can you please explain why you are reverting Eris's name? 40 fixed vandalism

Formation of the solar system

I have created an article on the formation of the solar system. This article makes reference to some farily recent but also very exciting research that is changing the view of how the solar system formed. --EMS | Talk 04:30, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Just a thought; your article and the origin section on the Solar system section are not that different. Perhaps it would be more efficient to simply rewrite the origins section to include Theia? Serendipodous 08:50, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

At the moment they are not too different. (However, six weeks ago when I started to draft it the 2:1 Jupiter-Saturn resonance was not mentioned here.) But do note that I very much intend for the article to grow. There is a lot of stuff that an individual artice can cover that a simple section cannot. I will create a to-do list for it ASAP. --EMS | Talk 02:26, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Good article nomination

While I do not think this article is anywhere near worthy of Featured status, I believe it may still qualify for Good status. I would also appreciate as much help as possible in improving its quality. Serendipodous 22:28, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Image for "Hypothetical planets"

Can anyone find a free-to-use image of a Vulcanoid, Nemesis, or Planet X? I can't seem to find anything in the public domain. Thanks.Serendipodous 21:14, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

There are a few "Planet X" images in NASA's site. NASA is a U.S. government agency and does not claim copyright over its works, so they can be used (with proper attribution, of course). Include "site:nasa.gov" in your Google image search. --69.109.225.223 20:34, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanks! That Google advice was really really useful! Unfortunately, the only NASA image that even remotely resembles Planet X is a picture of a KBO with the words "Planet X" stamped on it. :) Not much to work with. Serendipodous 09:15, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Reference wanted

From lead section: "a main sequence G2 star that contains 99.86% of the system's known mass and dominates it gravitationally." Is there a reference for this figure?  -- Run!  00:17, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

reference added Serendipodous 10:18, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

External Link Added

Space.com solar system page added as new external link. Includes recent stories, but also collective galleries on aspects of the solar system and some original video clips derived from their Starry Night software and dvds. Also includes a virtual space tour.Starexplorer 13:23, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Good work

This article does a good job of explaining technical material. Maurreen 07:27, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

I suppose I can say thank you to that, even though I didn't write all of this article :-). I have been working flat out to improve it, and it's nice to know that it seems to be working. Serendipodous 08:20, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

You're welcome. Maurreen 16:43, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Length

The article is 63 KB. I think it could stand to be shorter. But I don't want to make any big changes on my own. Maurreen 16:43, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

What would you trim? If I wanted to be brutal I would split the "Origin and Evolution" section off into its own article (perhaps merging it with EMS's Formation of the solar system), create a new article on hypothetical planets, (though I may need help with that; I've hacked that article down rather mercilessly recently, because, quite frankly, it stank, and if I am going to recreate it I'll need to figure out a way to do it without repeating information available elsewhere). and ditch the "Extrasolar planets" section entirely, since it has virtually nothing to do with the Solar system. That said, even though it's long, the solar system is a big topic and I like the user getting the full info without having to hop between articles. Serendipodous 19:21, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

OK; I've swallowed my pride and recreated the hypothetical planet article. It's not good but it's better than it was. It's still going to need a lot of tedious work though. I'll need someone else's goahead before I do anything more drastic. Serendipodous

EMS and I are in discussion about fusing our two sections to create one gigantic Formation of the solar system article. It's still a mess, but it's getting there. Serendipodous 22:14, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

That's better. Thank you. Maurreen 03:53, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

• I would suggest reducing the 'Pluto and Charon', '2003 UB313 ("Xena")', and 'Sedna' sections by about 50%. These are somewhat minor planets in comparison to, say, Jupiter. Yet they have the longest sections. Perhaps the information about their discovery and whether they are "planets" can be left to the specific pages? Anyway, just a suggestion. — RJH (talk) 19:05, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

orbital radiuses table

There was once a very useful table with arbital radiuses of major planets and other useful info. It seems to be removed from the article now. What are the reason of the removal? I, personally, fount it very useful to get idea of solar system scale and distanes between planets. It it possible to put the table back, or move it to separate page and make a notable link to it, please? -Zigmar 18:02, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

You mean this table?

Scale of planetary orbits.
(million kilometres)
The bottom and top of each colored bar represent a planet's nearest approach to the sun and farthest distance from the sun.

I thought the reasons I got rid of it would have seemed fairly obvious. It was cumbersome, badly designed, and above all, took up WAY too much space. Wherever I attempted to place it, it completely overwhelmed the text of the article, making it impossible to read. Notice how, with the introduction of this table, your added section is now three times longer. Note also that the text at the top is already bleeding into the text I'm writing now. I subbed it with the "Sedna" image, which also shows the orbits of the planets to scale, but doesn't take up half the article to do it. However, I am always open to new ideas; if you feel that there is some way to incorporate this table into the article without swamping it, I'd be happy to see it re-instated. It's a good table in theory; it just doesn't go with this article. Also, it REALLY needs to be rethought at the design level. Hijacking the "timeline" template and reusing it for planetary distances not only makes the image virtually impossible to resize, but also leaves the page a mess in the editing window. I would be happier if it were a simple .jpg or .gif file. Serendipodous 18:44, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

By itself the image looks decent. But I expect you would get a better distribution of the data if you used a logarithmic scale for the orbital radius and then reduced the overall width and height about 20%. Plus a logarithmic scale would demonstrate the Titius-Bode law very nicely, and it could then be used on that article page. — RJH (talk) 18:54, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

I need to settle this

Poll: Should extrasolar planets be mentioned in this article?

This article is very long, and extrasolar planets and planetary systems are only tangentally related to the topic. However, they do have some relevance to it. Is that relevance strong enough to warrant an additional few paragraphs when simply providing a link to extrasolar planet would arguably suffice? Serendipodous 20:08, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

I was tempted to remove that myself at one point. I think a link to extrasolar planets in the see also section would suffice. — RJH (talk) 20:13, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

What would it take to get this article up to feature quality?

Any thoughts?Serendipodous 20:41, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

You might look at FA criteria. At the moment if doesn't meet the stability criteria due to the large number of edits, so it might need to lie fallow for some period of time. You might also look at the Manual of Style to see if this article is fully compliant. After that, I'd just go for it. FA can be a humbling experience, but you'll probably get good feedback and have a chance to fix the problems. Plus you can always take it back again after it's fixed up. — RJH (talk) 22:44, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Good Article Review

I'm in the middle of reviewing this article for Good Article status, but won't be able to finish until probably sometime tomorrow. One comment can make at this point is that the footnote positioning is frequently incorrect. The ref tag should come directly after the punctuation which terminates the associated clause (or, in English: the footnote should be right after the comma or period with no space in between). I'll give you some more specific and detailed comments with my promotion decision tomorrow. --jwanders^Talk 21:06, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

A question just of interest, is there really such rule? Because I've been told to use space before ref tag (not like this^[1] but like this ^[1]); in real life, not in Wikipedia.--JyriL ^talk 22:05, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Yup, see Wikipedia:Footnotes#Place_ref_tag_after_punctuation. Apparently that's what the Chicago MoS recommends and what WP decided to emmulate, but it might well not be universal. --jwanders^Talk 22:27, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Good Article nomination has failed

The Good article nomination for Solar system/Archive 4 has failed, for the following reason:

Though the work done on this article is very good and it is well on it's way to promotion, it's not quite there yet. Based on the numbering in WP:WIAGA, this article comes up short in the following areas:

1a)

Many areas of the article feel unfocussed. Details irrelavant to the point of the paragraph or sentence are frequently added parenthetically, making it more difficult to follow the flow of the prose. For example, consider the following sentence, "Astronomers consider Pluto, (38 AU average) the solar system's smallest planet, to be part of the Kuiper Belt population." The main point of the sentence is simply Astronomers consider Pluto part of the Kuiper Belt", though two other facts have been wedged into the middle of this idea.

1c)

A large number of minor errors in WP:MOS formatting, including the footnote placement mentioned above, missing units, captilization and punctuation errors.

1d)

Jargon is used to alluded to theories without being adequately explained for the lay-reader. For example, the Hertzsprung-Russell diagram is frequently referenced when describing the Sun in relation to other stars, but this assumes the reader has prior knowledge of that diagram.

3)

This is a fine point, but this article seems to focus heavily on "the objects in the solar system" and devote little attention to the solar system itself. The details of the planets and other objects could be summarised much more briefly (with links to their own articles), and the informatinon on solar system formation and history significantly expanded.

5)

There have been a significant number of edits today alone, and the current version differs enough from that of [a week ago] that it qualifies as unstable.

6a)

The copyright tag on the Venus image looks a little dicey. It says a link to the author's website must be included with the image, which to me sounds like it would have to be in the caption. This should be looked into this further.

Some more specific comments (these did not necessary effect the GA decision, but are merely things I spotted during the review):

Lead, para 1

Suggest "distant objects" in place of "trans-Neptunian" as Neptune has yet to be introduced.

Lead, para 3

Many of the planet symbols don't appear properly on my system; perhaps the article needs an appropriate font warning message?

Layout and distances, image caption

Should be capitalised.

Layout and distances, para 2

Not sure if "in synch" is formal language. Consider re-wording.

Layout and distances, para 3

"with their perihelions and aphelions widely spaced apart. This sounds funny to me; do you mean something like "with a large difference between perihelions and aphelion".

Sun

Wow... that first picture's really bright! It seems crazy, but I'm tempted to recommend darkening it a bit, as it really distracts from the article.

Sun, para 1

"Hertzsprung-Russell diagram" needs a brief explanation for the references to it to make sense without the reader having to go to that article.

Inner planets

Could use Main article: XXX tags. Same with outer planets.

Asteroids, para 2

"The largest asteroid, Ceres, has a diameter of almost 1000 km; large enough to be spherical, which would make it a planet by some definitions of the word." The "large enough to be spherical" comment implies that the reader would already know of the astrophysics it refers to.

Uranus

"...it is still several thousand degrees..." This ought to have units.

Pluto and Charon

In the first sentence, "(38 AU average)" should come before the comma. Also should probably be expanded to "at an average orbital distance of 38 AU".

2003 UB313 ("Xena")

"has been nicknamed "Xena" by its discoverers, after the television character." This is a mismisplaced modifier, i.e. "after the television character" is technically refering to the discoverers, currently, not to Xena. Consider, "which its discoverers nicknamed "Xena" after the television character."

Galactic context, para 4

The hypothesis explained in the later half of this para needs a citation.

Despite the issues I've identified, this article is very good and shows a lot of potential. I urge you to renomitate it once these problems have been addressed. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Jwanders (talk • contribs) 00:03, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

The Linkspam issue

I have no idea which of the external links are "approved" sites and which aren't. Obviously the NASA sites are kosher, but while I do like SolStation and Celestia, but I have no idea if they have any more "right" to be here than the other solar system sites that get linked to this page. What is linkspam and what isn't? Serendipodous 21:38, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Not familiar with SolStation (will have to check it out), but I'd say Celestia is a good choice as it is an excellent tool for learning about the solar system. --Ckatz^chat_spy 18:36, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

Twelve Planets

The number of planets may need to be expanded to twelve following the news that the International Astronomical Union has recommended to its members that Charon, Xena and Ceres be ratified as new planets. [1] The new definition states that a planet is any star-orbiting object so large that its own gravity pulls in its rough edges, producing a near-perfect sphere. 210.185.71.34 06:19, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

I dunno. I wanna wait until the final vote; this proposal seems completely arbitrary and doesn't make any sense at all. Serendipodous 06:27, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Actually, the proposal makes perfect sense. For millenia we haven't had a clear definition of what exacly defines a planet. This new proposal, agreed upon unanimously by a special committee of the IAU, will set clear standards for what is and is not a planet. See the articles planet and definition of planet for more information on that. And if you can get ahold of the August 16th Chicago Tribune article on the subject, I highly recommend it; it's an excellent piece that clearly lays the facts and reasonings behind what's going on. That said, I think we must hold off saying that the Solar System is 12 planets until the official vote scheduled for August 24th. After that, this article will need some serious updating. --TiroAethra 15:48, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

The proposal itself makes sense, even if it is a bit messy, but there's no reason to link this proposal with this random number "12 planets." If this proposal is accepted, there would be about 30 planets, not 12. Why everyone's jumping on 12, I have no idea. Serendipodous 17:04, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

My understanding is that the proposal was accompanied with the formal suggestion that Ceres, Charon and Xena be immediately prompted to planets while decision on any other objects be delayed for additional discussion. Hence accepting the proposal could immediately create a 12 planet system with more to come. Dragons flight 17:08, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

I've started a new article on this topic, see 2006 redefinition of planet. Please help to expand that article. Thank you. --Cyde Weys 18:06, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not a crystal ball

The solar system has currently nine known planets. Anything else is speculation until August 24th, and should be treated as such. So no more may become planets, please.--JyriL ^talk 17:02, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Correct, it is not a crystal ball. However, that doesn't prevent factual statements like "The IAU are currently considering whether to classify additional objects as planets" or such like. AndrewRT - Talk 19:53, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Correct. However, "has twelve planets" is not factual. It is guessing.Eh Nonymous 19:55, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

I think that the above method, would be good. But they shouldn't include moons, and they should have a fixed diameter. I really think Xena should be included as a planet, and they should hurry up with an official name. TheDalek 14:25, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Did the other planets even become planets. do they sitll have a chance or not.

Template

What do you think about having a template on the Solar System? I'll make a start on what I mean: Template:Objects of the Solar system AndrewRT - Talk 20:47, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

FA Status?

The template at top suggests it's failed its current FA application, but the FA page doesn't look like the nomination's closed? 4 days seems to be an awfully short FA nomination period, although I guess it was pretty clear which way it was leaning. Anchoress 05:55, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

I never really intended this article for feature consideration. I simply wanted some advice on what needed to be done to make it feature quality. I've answered most of their issues but it'll be a long time before I resubmit it. Serendipodous 06:01, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, I gathered that from the FA nomination page. But it still leaves dangling a) whether or not the article should have a 'failed FA' template, and b) whether or not the FA nomination is officially closed. Anchoress 06:28, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Earth and Moon: A double planet?

The section on Pluto and Charon states: "Like the Earth/Moon, Pluto and Charon are often considered a double planet, since both orbit a common barycenter between the two bodies.".

But the article Double planet states that Earth and moon are not a double planet since the barycenter lies within the more massive planet; Earth in this case.(2006 redefinition of planet and Double_planet#Debate)

I don't think this a subject of debate because of the literally defined criterion of the barycenter.

--Alif 11:49, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

The current proposal by the IAU for a definition of 'planet' suggests that we call a system a 'double planet' if its barycentre is outside both bodies. However, this is only a proposal. The term 'double planet' has been used casually for years to simply mean 'a planet with a big moon', or to refer to objects orbiting a barycentre regardless of whether it is outside the main body. There needs to be a distinction made between the casual use of the term, and this new, more specific proposal. The Singing Badger 11:55, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

I use the term "double planet" to describe Earth/Moon because the Moon's orbit around the Sun is concave; it effectively orbits the Sun directly. Serendipodous 17:11, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Out of curiosity

Are there any extrasolar systems with as many or more planets than our system? From I've seen, most systems consist of 2-3 gas giants and maybe a small rocky one. --Nog64 17:01, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

There very well could be, but we can't find them yet. Our sensors are currently detecting the mid-to-large range. To get to see the smaller rocky ones we'd need the TPF or Darwin or some other humongous next generation telescope. We might start finding those mega-systems in the future. Serendipodous 17:09, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Recent reclassification of planets

With the recent news of astronomers finally classifying what a planet is, we now have a new solar system. As a consequence this page needs updating. You can view the news here: http://www.iau2006.org/mirror/www.iau.org/iau0601/iau0601_release.html -- RND  T  C  09:20, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

It is only a draft proposal, and it is unclear if this or any other proposal will be selected. The voting will be held on August 24. No changes before that.--JyriL ^talk 09:24, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

"There were at one point nine planets, but Pluto was stripped of its status as a planet on August 24, 2006, by the International Astronomical Union, according to CNN."

The same IAU ruling that demoted the Pluto/Charon system from planet, also promoted Ceres up to being a planet - so we're still at 9.

Actually there were several "planets" added and then declassified over the years. We probably had way more than 9 at certain points.

http://aa.usno.navy.mil/hilton/AsteroidHistory/minorplanets.html

Question - Does the need for an object to have cleared its orbit of other objects now relegate Jupiter and the Earth among others from the list of planets? It seems to me that the IAU really dropped the ball here.

The most recent reclassification (IAU Resolution 5A) was really quite sloppy. The "cleared its orbital vicinity" clause technically DQ's Uranus (because Pluto is in its orbital vicinity), Jupiter (because it has Trojan asteroids), Mars (ditto), and Earth (because of the large number of NEOs). Ceres isn't even in the running since it is in the asteroid belt. That leaves something like four (Mercury, Venus, Saturn, and Uranus). I think the IAU is going to have to clear up their wording... zowie 19:56, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Zowie, the phrase in resolution 5A "(c) has cleared the neighbourhood around its orbit" may be sloppy wording, but it could be loosely defined to incorporate the following phenomena: (a) capture of satellites, (b) caused the orbital migration (scattering) of other bodies from the orbital vicinity, (c) as well as the regularisation of small bodies into Langrangian positions (Trojans) or resonant orbits (2:1, 3:2, and other trans-Neptunian populations). The inner planets may have sufficient mass to eject or capture satellites, but not nearly so well as Jupiter.

While I'm here, may I point out that an anonymous (IP only) has tried to protect the small Solar System template and moved Pluto back to the category of planet. The template probably needs to be protected from vandalism for the next while - first of all, a whole lot of possible candidates for "dwarf planetdom" were added, then removed, and finally Pluto put back where it was up until August 24. Vandals may also decide to attack certain other solar system pages. Philip Legge _@ 01:32, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't believe that Pluto and Charon are classified as a double planet system. While that was under the original proposal, I think Pluto's demotion to dwarf planet has resulted in Charon being an un-important chunk of ice, rather than part of a double planet system. 67.68.46.64 21:47, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Former Planet Comment

Formerly included in the list of planets was Pluto (♇). Numerous articles also state that Ceres was classified as a planet (see comment in preceeding discussion). If Pluto is going to be specially referenced, why not Ceres which spent years on the planet list? Just curious. Zurel Darrillian 15:43, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Not to scale?

Come on! This is Wikipedia! Are you telling me that we can't even get a scale picture of the Solar System? I, for one, am disgusted...

I guess you don't realize what a scale picture of the solar system would look like. Picture a yellow circle about a centimeter in diameter (for the Sun) and then a black expanse extending about 100 feet past the edge of your monitor. The gas giants would each be about 1 pixel. Earth would not be visible. Kaldari 23:23, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

For those having trouble visualising the scale of things in space, these images may help [2]. It doesn't show the size of the solar system however... These images incidently have been shrunk. I received them by e-mail a while back and they're larger so somewhere along the line someone shrunk them. I don't know the source of the images but you could probably find better versions if you search harder Nil Einne 15:48, 27 August 2006 (UTC) Nil Einne 15:45, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Definition of solar system not complete

This article defines the solar system as "eight planets and their 162 known moons, as well as dwarf planets, asteroids, meteoroids, planetoids, comets, and interplanetary dust". This omits the 80(?) moons orbiting dwarf planets and small solar system bodies. Please see the natural satellite article which states that there are "240 known moons within the Solar system". Kaldari 23:44, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

The sentence is, "eight planets and their 162 currently known moons." KBOs and asteroids aren't planets. Ergo their moons wouldn't be listed. Serendipodous 19:25, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm not arguing about that. I'm saying that according to the sentence, the moons of asteriods and KBOs are not included in the definition of the solar system! Kaldari 22:10, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't follow the IAU. Numerous astrologers don't follow the IAU. In all likelihood, hundreds of thousands of people all over the world don't follow the IAU. Therefore, I see nothing wrong in considering asteroids and KBOs to be planets. — Rickyrab | Talk 21:23, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

"a trans-neptunian object"

The new caption for that picture is quite sad. Can't we just say its Pluto, for old times' sake?

"Definition"

I've shifted this short section over to the talk page, because it's somewhat unclear as to where it belongs.

Definition

As of August 2006 the following rules must be passed for a celestial body to count as a planet in our solar system: A planet is a celestial body that (a) is in orbit around the Sun (b) has sufficient mass for its self-gravity to overcome rigid body forces so that it assumes a hydrostatic equilibrium (nearly round) shape (c) has cleared the neighborhood around its orbit.

---

First of all, the title is misleading; this article is about the solar system, not about planets, so "definition" would refer to the Solar system in this context, not to planets.

That aside, the section was oddly placed and didn't really fit into the overall structure of the article. There are enough mentions of the IAU's decision in the article already without having to go into so much detail. Serendipodous 22:31, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Capitalize Solar System?

Why isn't "solar system" capitalized since it refers to the name of our stellar system, named for our star "Sol"?

There was a long discussion about this years ago, and it was decided not to capitalise it. For further info, check the earlier discussion archive. Serendipodous 08:24, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

We can capitalize it. I see no reason why someone else's decision from years ago should apply to current Wikipedia. — Rickyrab | Talk 21:25, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

In official nomenclature, as put out by the IAU, the words `Solar System' are, in fact, capitalised. Shouldn't we at wikipedia be adhering to the definition provided by the IAU - as for instance is done with defining other celestial objects. See this IAU Link http://www.iau.org/SPELLING_OF_NAMES.240.0.html jkm 09:20, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Layout - removed text

I've removed the following text from the "Layout" section:

"By and large, the planets within the solar system are arranged so that each is roughly double the distance from the Sun as the one before it, an effect described by Bode's Law. Venus is roughly twice as far from the Sun as Mercury, Earth is roughly double the distance as Venus, Mars double that of Earth, and so on."

Looking at this table, the numbers just don't support the above assertion - even with a "by and large" disclaimer. The reference to "Bode's Law" isn't great, either, as it makes T-B appear to be a law, rather than a "law". Any thoughts? --Ckatz^chat_spy 18:44, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

It's one thing to just remove text; it's another thing to redraft it with something you feel is more accurate. Some mention of the layout of the solar system should be included in that section. If you feel you are not qualified or inclined to create it, then don't remove the text. I originally included a deeper discussion of Bode's law in earlier drafts, but decided that it was irrellevant and dropped it. I have no idea how it suddenly crept back into the text again. Serendipodous 19:11, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

I have to disagree with you on one of your points. You stated: "If you feel you are not qualified or inclined to create it, then don't remove the text." The text is incorrect, and the data on planetary orbits supports that contention. It would be bad practice to leave the text in there. I did not "just remove text" - instead, I transferred it to the talk page, so that the community could discuss it. --Ckatz^chat_spy 20:05, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

Then what would be correct? Certainly saying that all the planets are the same distance appart is incorrect. And it is (roughly) true that the planets double their distances from one another with each orbit, particularly if one includes the asteroid belt. If you feel a more accurate description is needed, then please create one. Otherwise I don't see what's wrong with saying that the planet's orbits roughly double. Serendipodous 16:00, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm not clear on what, exactly, your argument is. Here are some of the points you're making:

"...saying that all the planets are the same distance appart is incorrect"'

- true, but not what I proposed at all.

"...it is (roughly) true that the planets double their distances from one another with each orbit, particularly if one includes the asteroid belt..."

- again, do the numbers support this? Looking at the table, it seems we can make this "roughly" work if we drop Earth and Neptune, and reclassify Pluto and Ceres as planets. That, to me, doesn't make for a sound statement.

"I don't see what's wrong with saying that the planet's orbits roughly double."

- There's nothing wrong with saying it, as long as it is true. Unfortunately, it isn't the case with the eight defined planets, and it still doesn't work if we try to force it by adding other bodies.

Look, if I've missed something, if my math is faulty, then say so. I won't debate the point if I've missed a decimal here or there, and everything actually fits "roughly" into place. However, I don't think it does. --Ckatz^chat_spy 00:18, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

First of all, my main issue isn't that you disagree that the planets' orbits are roughly double. It is that you took out the only direct reference to the layout of the solar system in a section called "Layout" and didn't replace it with anything. If you feel my assertion that the planets' orbits are roughly double is wrong, then come up with a description of your own. Don't just delete the text without replacing it.

The section is just fine without the text. Your solution is to leave in an incorrect assertion until something else is written to replace it. If an article about the United States stated that it was the largest country in the world, would you have me leave that erroneous statement in there until something was written to replace it? We would be doing a disservice to the readers. --Ckatz^chat_spy 16:03, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Second, if you follow the orbits from Earth outwards (not necessarily counting Pluto and Ceres as planets, but certainly counting the asteroid and Kuiper belts as orbits), with the exception of Neptune they are almost exactly double. That's six orbits out of ten, which, for my money, qualifies as "by and large." see here Serendipodous 11:19, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

The text said "planets". The math does not support this. Add in the asteroid belt, ignore Mercury and Venus, whatever, the math does not support it. As nice as it would be to have a convenient description like that, it doesn't apply to our solar system. --Ckatz^chat_spy 16:03, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

What I don't understand is why you feel it has to be exact or nothing. We're not dealing with a mathematical construction here; we're dealing with nature. And, even if a statement about nature is only 70 percent correct, it would still qualify, in my book, as a useful generalisation. As I said, if we wanted to make a statement about the orbits in the solar system, what would be more correct; that they are, by and large, double, or that they are arranged linearly? A lot of people don't know that the orbits of the planets increase exponentially, because diagrams of the solar system (like the one in this article) depict them as linear. Some mention of the exponential nature of the orbits of the solar system is necessary to counter this common misconception. Indeed I would say that doing so is important enough that keeping an only vaguely accurate account of the orbits in the solar system in is preferable to taking it out. Again, I repeat, if you don't want to use the word "double" than come up with your own word, but don't just delete it. Serendipodous 17:22, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

I've never said that it has to be exact or nothing, nor would I - as you said, it's nature. If the statement were a close approximation, then it would be useful. However, as worded, it is "by and large" inaccurate and misleading, two qualities which would warrant removal. Fix it, tweak it, rewrite it, fine - but when a statement is wrong, it gets pulled, not when a replacement is found, but right away. (I'm not even going to touch on the Titus-Bode "law", as you yourself dismissed it as "irrelevant" in an earlier statement.) Your concern is that we should attempt to dispel the layperson's notion that the planets are in a linear progression. Fair enough, and a worthy goal. Now, let's test the "doubled" progression, as that layperson might attempt it. They would probably get a pen and start drawing circles, doubling the distance each time. If they do that, they'll be way off the mark by the time they get to Earth (drawing it past Mars' orbit), and really out at Mars (now beyond the asteroid belt). Jupiter, Saturn, and Uranus would each be pushed outwards by increasingly substantial amounts, and Neptune (would be drawn out past Pluto (which, at over 15 billion km, would make 2003 UB₃₁₃'s actual orbit seem "local".) If we factor in the asteroid belt, then it's even farther out of whack, and asking people to "start with Earth", or ignore Neptune, or count "orbits" ("but remember, they're not planets") will only compound the confusion. Remember, anyone who's attempting to use this sort of solution probably isn't going to be comparing the actual numbers, or compensating for errors with each subsequent orbit (i.e. "Venus to Earth, 2x108,000,000=216,000,000 vs. actual 150,000,000, now Earth to Mars, 2x150,000,000=300,000,000 vs. 228,000,000, etc.") They'll start at Mercury and keep on doubling the numbers. Look, I'm not questioning your desire to establish the non-linear progression. What doesn't make sense is that you would want to hang on to a statement that you, yourself, have described as "only vaguely accurate". --Ckatz^chat_spy 07:43, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

So, how would you phrase it? Serendipodous 08:08, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Given how many words we've expended to get to this point, I'm not sure there are any left to use in a statement... <grin> Ummm, I'll ponder this for a bit. Off the top of my head, points to mention would be 1) not linear 2) no simple "pattern". Might be worth opening a new section for this discussion - we should probably get input from the other editors, but they might well miss this part of the thread amidst all the other text. --Ckatz^chat_spy 07:30, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

And given that I said several times that my main complaint was not that you removed the reference but that you didn't replace it with something more accurate, I don't see why we did go through circles to get here. Anyway. I think starting a new section is a good idea. "No simple pattern" is not particularly helpful, especially since we have to explain what "not linear" means. I'll shift this down to the bottom. Serendipodous 07:47, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Move to Sol Star System

Move to Solar System

layout of the solar system

CKatz and I have been engaged in a rather spririted discussion concerning his removal of the statement that the orbits of the planets are roughly double. I said that this was by and large true, as six of the solar system's ten known orbits are double; however he claims it is misleading. It is important to clarify that, at the very least, the distances between the planets are not linear; that they are not, as the picture at the top of the article suggests, the same distance apart. So how should it be phrased? Serendipodous 12:04, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

For reference, this is the text up for revision. It was originally in the "Layout" section: --Ckatz^chat_spy 16:32, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

"By and large, the planets within the solar system are arranged so that each is roughly double the distance from the Sun as the one before it, an effect described by Bode's Law. Venus is roughly twice as far from the Sun as Mercury, Earth is roughly double the distance as Venus, Mars double that of Earth, and so on."

Well, CKatz, it looks as if the only people who care about this are you and me. Guess we have something in common after all. Beer? Serendipodous 14:15, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Hey there... sorry I've been absent from this discussion for a bit. Thanks for getting a start on the revamp. As you'll see, I've built upon what you wrote. I've changed the Venus-Earth orbital distance example to Mercury-Venus, because Earth is one of the exceptions to the layout we're attempting to describe. The Mercury-Venus spacing is comparable in AU, so it still makes a good contrast to the other two examples. --Ckatz^chat_spy 06:45, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

units

Near the top, this article claims that Other units in common use include the gigametre (abbreviated as "Gm," one billion metres) and the terametre ("Tm", one trillion metres). This sounds like science-fiction cruft. Can someone provide references that demonstrate the usage is, as claimed, "common"? None of the references I use mention them. They all stop at kilometres, but prefer the AU. mdf 15:33, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Have a look at the Wikipedia pages for some of the more distant planets (Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus, Neptune etc.) Their infoboxes all list their orbital circumfrences in Tm. And since when are standard scientific units "science fiction"? Serendipodous 17:08, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, if we are allowed to cite Wikipedia for usage, then SI prefixes says that "At large scales, megametre, gigametre, and larger are rarely used. Often used are astronomical units, light years, and parsecs; the astronomical unit is mentioned in the SI standards as an accepted non-SI unit." This reflects my experience, as I can't recall ever having seen "Gm" or "Tm" being used, let alone "commonly". Megametre agrees re: usage, also commenting on the science-fiction connection (I've seen it in various works). The actual standard is ISO 1000. I don't want to pony up the $$$ to buy a copy, but those in the know state that it says that units larger than the kilometre are not in common use, contrary to the claim made in this artcile. Maybe things have developed since 1992, hence my request for some references. mdf 17:27, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Ok; I only put the information there in the first place because other Wiki articles used them and I felt they needed explaining. Serendipodous 07:25, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Asteroids

I'd like to replace the current image (seen on the left here) with a new one (seen on the right). I can tweak the color scheme, resize, etc, on request. mdf 16:41, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Your image looks nicer and is more informative but doesn't show up well at lo-res. You might want to change the colours of the trojans so that they appear on the same scale, because they're invisible now. Serendipodous 17:10, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Tweaked to use larger dots for the asteroids, but the result is still less than ideal -- I've increased the size of the image to compensate a bit. More details added to the text as well. mdf 14:43, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

• Nice job. Do you have a version without the names?! I would like to use it in the Portuguese language version. BTW can you use blue? the blue seems nicer than black.--Pedro 10:59, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Added the blue, and uploaded a label-less version (click on image). mdf 20:22, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, I did upload it and it was there. But now it appears to have been deleted by entites and reasons unknown. If anyone needs a copy, leave a note on my talk page. mdf 20:46, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Pluto

Pluto should not become a dwarf planet. its been descovered as a planet, so it should stay a planet.1;07 pm september 2 2006

By that logic, we should call America India. Serendipodous 18:10, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Ceres was also "discovered as a planet", but after additonal discoveries it became clear that a new designation of "asteroid" was required. Similarly, for a long time Pluto was the only object in our solar system that was out there of its size, but with recent discoveries it has become apparent that if Pluto were a standard for defining a planet, we could end up with dozens of planets. The IAU addressed this by demoting Pluto as a planet because it has more in common with all of the other "junk" floating out there than it does with the other eight planets. Science does not rest on tradition - we identify our observations until new observations either confirm our theories or disprove them. Scott Osborne 19:03, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

but just because its small doesnt mean it cant be a planet

The definition doesn't exclude Pluto because it's small; it excludes Pluto because it doesn't dominate its region by mass. If Pluto were circling out by itself, it would certainly be a planet, but it isn't. Serendipodous 18:33, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

I concur - Mercury is very small (there are moons of Saturn that are larger than Mercury), but there really isn't anything else orbiting close to it - there aren't asteroids or other chunks of rock that are similar in size, making it a planet. Pluto on the other hand, is apparently one of many similarly sized objects in the Kuiper Belt, at least one of which is larger, and so it is a dwarf planet. Scott Osborne 19:09, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Mercury is more than twice as massive as any satellite of any planet, and larger in radius than all but Ganymede (Jupiter), and Titan (Saturn). I think it's probably worth pointing out that, when first discovered, Pluto was believed to be a lot larger, and much more massive than the current size and mass determinations. Originally, size estimates were comparable to the Earth. Telescopes were not good enough to resolve the disc of Pluto to directly measure its size, and the satellite Charon was not discovered until 1978 - so no mass estimates could be done accurately. Determination of the size could only be done by measuring its brightness and its distance from Earth and the Sun, and estimating based on how reflective the surface is. As it turns out, Pluto's surface is very reflective - similar to that of Venus, and many times more reflective than our Moon, and most asteroids. If you make an assumption of a low reflectivity, then you reach a conclusion of a larger radius. The discovery of Charon allowed the mass of Pluto to be measured, based on the distance, and orbital period, and then in the 1980s, Pluto and the Earth were aligned so that Charon was being occulted every orbit. This allowed direct measurements of the true radius of both objects. Anyway, enough rambling - but the point is that you make measurements and determinations of what you discover based on the available evidence, but if new evidence (smaller size and mass - other, perhaps larger objects discovered) comes to light, then you must be prepared to revise your understanding of the discovered object. Richard B 16:57, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

matter

Somone tell me did the matter in the earth come from the same place as the matter in jupiter?

that would be a yes Eevo 18:24, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

The theory is that all of the matter in the solar system began orbiting a central mass, and over time pools of it began swirling together making planets and the sun. So, yes, Virginia, the matter on earth more or less came from the same pool of stuff as Jupiter, Saturn, and the other planets. Scott Osborne 19:13, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Why are Pluto, Ceres and Xena listed separately from their populations?

Can someone provide me with a source that says that Pluto, Ceres and Xena, because they are now dwarf planets, are no longer members of the asteroid belt, the Kuiper belt or the scattered disc? Serendipodous 12:32, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm going to make the alteration. If anyone has a problem with it they can take it up here. Serendipodous 09:46, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Since these are major classifications this would be logical and would aid in people doing research. This being said their major category as a Dwarf Planet superseeds their minor category as an asteroid, a KBO and a Scattered Disc Object. Stating that these "Dwarf Planets" can be classified as other system objects should be mentioned also. -- UKPhoenix79 10:11, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

The version you reverted to didn't just not mention that Pluto, Xena and Ceres were members of their populations, it specifically stated that they no longer were classified as such. I would like to know where whoever wrote that got that information, because it's news to me.

Also, I think including Pluto's, Xena's and Ceres's description paragraphs in a separate dwarf planet section is somewhat short-sighted. It's only a matter of time before Sedna, Orcus, Varuna, Quaoar, Ixion and perhaps hundreds of other objects are also listed as dwarf planets. Are we going to write descriptions for them all? Pluto is not distinctive because it is a dwarf planet; countless other objects will soon join it. Pluto is distinctive because it is the largest member of the Kuiper belt, just as Ceres is distinctive because it is the largest asteroid, and Xena is distinctive because it is the largest SDO.Serendipodous 10:28, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Reorganization of Solar system to keep in line with the 2006 redefinition of planet

In the 2006 redefinition of planet approved by the International Astronomical Union They have redefined the orginization of objects in the Solar system into 4 major categories. These major categories contan many of the commanly known sub categories.

• Sun
• Planets
  • Terrestrial planets
  • Gas giants
• Dwarf planets
• Small solar system body
  • Asteroids
  • Centaurs
  • Trans-Neptunian Objects (including Kuiper belt & Scattered disc objects)
  • Comets
  • possably meteoroids

These changes are in line with the new official rulings. Personally I liked having the Asteroid Belt seperating the inner and outer planets but since this is an encyclopedia we should try to keep it as encyclopedic as possable. -- UKPhoenix79 08:23, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

This is NOT AN ARTICLE ABOUT THE REDEFINITION OF PLANET. There are TWO OTHER ARTICLES dealing with that topic. This is an article about the solar system. The solar system consists of a number of regions, many of which contain both dwarf planets and small solar system bodies together. To lump the entire asteroid belt into "small solar system bodies" is completely wrong. One asteroid is already a dwarf planet, and three more could join it. The Kuiper belt could contain hundreds of dwarf planets. The scattered disc more than that. The only group of bodies that are unequivocally all small solar system bodies are trojans, comets and centaurs. That's it. Serendipodous 08:38, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Where did I say that this was an article about the redef of a planet? This is keeping factual information and grouping solar system objects according to the new rulings put forth by the IAU. That ruling did change classifications of objects in our solar system, so an article about the solar system should reflect those changes. They stated that "small solar system bodies" are all solar system bodies that are not Planets or Dwarf Planets.

Therefore it refers to these objects that can be further classified based on their orbit or composition:

• all known minor planets that are not dwarf planets, i.e.:

• the classical asteroids (except the largest one, 1 Ceres);
• the Centaurs and Neptune Trojans;
• the smaller Trans-Neptunian Objects (except the dwarf planets Pluto and 2003 UB₃₁₃ "Xena");

• all comets;
• It is not yet clear whether there will be a lower bound on the group of small solar system bodies, or if it will encompass all material down to the level of meteoroids.

So unless specifically stated as otherwise in the list of Dwarf Planets then the objects in those regions are small solar system bodies. Like I said personally I liked having Asteroids seperating the outer & inner planets but that is not how this enclyclopedia should list them any longer since they now are not a major class of solar system objects but a sub class of small solar system bodies. It is what it is and science changes, all we can do is accuratly list those changes as they evolve. -- UKPhoenix79 08:54, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

I think Serendipodous is correct in this case - the article should reflect the layout of the solar system. There is ample opportunity to indicate what class each object belongs to within such a structure. --Ckatz^chat_spy 08:57, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

What you're actually arguing for is a completely different philosophy in organising this article. To do it properly, the entire article would have to be rewritten from the ground up. Right now, at least in the majority, this article is "geographically" organised. The objects in the solar system are listed according to region. If you want to list the objects in the solar system according to class, you would have to eliminate all mention of the asteroid belt (since it consists of both small solar system bodies and a dwarf planet), the Kuiper belt (ditto) and the scattered disc (ditto). Personally, I find a "class" organisation ugly and cumbersome, as it doesn't give an idea of the overall structure and layout of the solar system. Sure, the classifications "dwarf planets" and "small solar system bodies" should be mentioned, but Ceres still belongs in the asteroid belt, Pluto in the Kuiper belt and Xena in the scattered disc. Serendipodous 09:01, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Look, I'll edit the article in the way I think would make a good compromise. If you don't like it, revert it, but at least explain why. Serendipodous 09:11, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Removing the selection of Dwarf planets would not make sense since they are now considered a type of planet and should be seperated and listed as such. But thanks for the honest attempt. -- 09:40, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

And again, I'll add my support for the "geographical" arrangement. There are many articles that cover the solar system on the basis of classification, but it is equally important to have a solid, easy to follow explanation of the physical system. --Ckatz^chat_spy 09:16, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Where does it say that you have to eliminate all mention of the asteroid belt... Kuiper belt... and the scattered disc that dosen't make sense. Just because an object that lays inside of the small solar system bodies is considered a Dwarf Planet doesn't negate other objects. That ONE particular celestial object is now a Dwarf planet that is also a (...) just like Mercury is a Planet and a Terrestrial planet. Stating that solar system objects that are NOT planets or dwarf planets are in this group is perfectly logical! This article is not called the solar system according to geography just the solar system. While I have said that I prefere the asteroid belt seperating the inner and outer planets this is not how they are properly grouped. The only middle ground that I could see would be to organize objects past Neptune under the small solar system bodies heading thus keeping it geographic. But frankly this is still not keeping true to what Asteroids are now considered. -- UKPhoenix79 09:20, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

You said, "I prefere the asteroid belt seperating the inner and outer planets this is not how they are properly grouped.". This is correct if you are describing the types of objects in the system. If, however, you are describing the solar system, as it would appear to an observer, than it is very much the correct way to group objects. Your concerns can be addressed very easily, merely by adding mention of the "sssb" classification in the asteroid belt section. --Ckatz^chat_spy 09:25, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

This is an article about the solar system

it is not an article about dwarf planets, small solar system bodies, or the redefinition of "planet." This article was originally laid out according to the solar system's geography; inner planets, asteroids, outer planets, kuiper belt, scattered disc, Sedna, heliopause. Now that everyone seems to want to rejig the order to emphasise the IAU's decision, it makes no sense. Ceres is not a small solar system body, but it is mentioned along with the asteroids. Pluto is not a small solar system body, but it is mentioned along with the Kuiper belt. To say nothing of the fact that the idea that this new emphasis creates the misleading impression that the solar system consists of eight planets, three dwarf planets and small solar system bodies. Many objects in the asteroid and Kuiper belts are likely to be made dwarf planets before too long. It is a mistake to place them in a "small solar system bodies" category.

And I repeat, including Pluto's, Xena's and Ceres's description paragraphs in a separate dwarf planet section is somewhat short-sighted. It's only a matter of time before Sedna, Orcus, Varuna, Quaoar, Ixion and perhaps hundreds of other objects are also listed as dwarf planets. Are we going to write descriptions for them all? Pluto is not distinctive because it is a dwarf planet; countless other objects will soon join it. Pluto is distinctive because it is the largest member of the Kuiper belt, just as Ceres is distinctive because it is the largest asteroid, and Xena is distinctive because it is the largest SDO. Serendipodous 08:21, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Your making an assumption about the final numbers, yet I would agree that "Sedna, Orcus, Varuna, Quaoar, Ixion" will be included in the definition of "Dwarf Planets." But there is no reason why they should not be mentioned since if the early draft of the IAU would have passed then they would have become regular planets and we would have included them in this list.

Dwarf planets are a major classification of objects in our solar system now and even though these objects will have another classifications such as a KBO. They are seperate from other "small solar system bodies" and since this is an encyclopedia it must be listed as such. I would say that it is not misleading to say that the solar system containes "eight planets, three dwarf planets and small solar system bodies" just like a month ago I would have said it wasn't misleading to say the solar system containes 9 planets. Until things change that statement is factually correct and if we find another planet (assuming that it "cleared the neighbourhood") then we will again have 9 just like how the number will rise when other objects are declared dwarf planets. This is an encyclopedia after all and we should classify things in an encyclopedic mannor. -- UKPhoenix79 08:39, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Even so, there is no justification for placing the asteroid belt, the Kuiper belt, and the scattered disc into "small solar system bodies", because even according to the current definition, all three regions contain dwarf planets alongside small solar system bodies. Serendipodous 08:46, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

As I stated below all objects that are not planets and dwarf planets are considered small solar system bodies. One needs only to say that to keep with the IAUs rullings. Dont forget that they used to be major classifications for objects in the solar system but now there are only 4 Sun, Planet, Dwarf Planet and Small solar system bodies that is it. Now since this article is about the Solar system this article should reflect these new scientific terms with open arms. As science changes the enclyclopedias that contain the knowledge of science should change to reflect those changes. -- UKPhoenix79 08:59, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Fine. But as I said below, if you're going to do that, then you'd better eliminate the asteroid belt section, since you are claiming that the region is less important than the objects within it. I don't want to see this article become a mere categorised list of objects in the solar system with no notion of place within the overall structure. I want the solar system to be a skeleton. You want it to be a nicely ordered box full of bones. Serendipodous 09:05, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Dont understand why you think that if its organized this way that you'd have to eliminate objects in the solar system since that just does not make any sence and is not what the IAUs rullings state they state that anything not a plant or a dwarf planet are small solar system bodies that is it the cut and dry of it. They dont say that if something from that region becomes a dwarf planet all other objects should be ignored or reclassified. And I like your analogy of the body because that is what I am trying to do Classify things by their major like head, arms, torso and legs. If you were going to study the human skeliton you would devide them into their basic parts and learn from there. This is now how people are going to classify the solar system Sun, Planets, Dwarf Planets and SSSBs. -- UKPhoenix79 09:28, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Dont understand why you think that if its organized this way that you'd have to eliminate objects in the solar system since that just does not make any sence

Not objects. Regions. The asteroid belt is a region of the solar system that contains both a dwarf planet and sssbs. If you are going to group the solar system by either dwarf planets or sssbs, then there is no place for the asteroid belt. You can have Ceres (a dwarf planet) or asteroids (sssbs) but not the asteroid belt. Serendipodous 09:39, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

That would make sence if Dwarf planets were regions that intersected other regions but they arn't they are special bodies that are classified differently. You did a good job earlier saying simply that SSSBs are

1. all asteroids save Ceres
2. all centaurs
3. all Trans-Neptunian Objects, including Kuiper belt & Scattered disc objects, with the exception of Pluto and 2003 UB₃₁₃
4. all comets

That is all I have been saying this whole time. All you do is say that they are EVERYTHNG save these 3 objects and that is it :) Chat to you later -- UKPhoenix79 09:44, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Dwarf planets were regions that intersected other regions

That't the point! They are! (well, objects that intersect other regions, rather than regions). They may be in their own separate class but they are still part of the asteroid belt, the Kuiper belt and the scattered disc! The asteroid belt is a particular region that contains both sssbs and a dwarf planet! I don't understand why you're having such difficulty understanding this.Serendipodous 09:52, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

S. - I've restored your re-edited version as I feel that it presents the solar system in a more logical fashion, according to layout. I also like having the subsections for Ceres and Pluto. There could probably be some revisions to incorporate (for example) information on the SSSB classification in the asteroids section. Good work, though. --Ckatz^chat_spy 09:55, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Dwarf Planets are small planets and will be taught that way. These objects are SPECIAL objects in the solar system. They do not negate other objects in the area but are considered different and thusly are classified differtly. They are unique objects in the solar system and are grouped together because of their unique nature. They are a part of a region of space we all know that since all objects in the solar system can be grouped together. Using the Asteroid belt as an example just because one object inside of it is a Dwarf Planet does not mean that everything else cannot be listed as a SSSB since they are.

Dwarf Planets must be listed seperatly just like all of the other planets must be listed seperatly also. Dwarf planets are second only to Planets when it comes to major objets within the solar system so we must list them as special objects within our solar system. The only reason I put forth the idea of grouping other SSSBs into one category is because that is the proper scientific thing to do. I have said before that I prefer having Asteroids listed geographically so if people end up not liking the idea I am ok with that. But not having the Dwarf Planets listed together as they should would be compleatly incorrect. Like I said before if the early draft of the IAU would have passed the would have become planets (as would several other objects) and we would have listed them umong the other 8. They decided to create the classification of Dwarf Planet and those objects need to get the same respect as the larger planets do. -- UKPhoenix79 10:34, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

believe me I do want this to get resolved but I have to get some sleep for work but please use the talk page to help work out this issue -- UKPhoenix79 10:42, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Ceres is described as a dwarf planet in the introduction to this article. Ceres is described as a dwarf planet in the "Dwarf planets and small solar system bodies" section. Ceres is described as a dwarf planet in the main section for the asteroid belt. And Ceres is described as a dwarf planet in its own subsection. There is simply no need to describe Ceres as a dwarf planet a fifth time. Yes. Ceres is a dwarf planet. That is why it, and it alone, over and above all the millions of other asteroids, gets its own subsection in the asteroid belt. That is also why Pluto, even though there are probably other dwarf planets soon to join it, gets its own section in Kuiper belt, and that is why Xena gets its own section in Scattered disc. This article arranges the objects in the solar system by region, not by class. That doesn't mean that class is not mentioned. To change the article in the way you intend would require it to be completely rewritten. Serendipodous 10:43, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

As regards my reversion: I didn't initially revert it. But since someone else did, it's quite clear that my position is shared by others on this board, and that you are in the minority. My subsequent reversion merely reflected majority opinion. Serendipodous 10:43, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Conversations about other planets or mentions about other planets does not preclude them from being included as planets. If things are getting redundent then remove the redundancies. But excluding special objects from other simalar special objects doesnt make sense either. If we were going to have children read this they would not be thinking where could the dwarf planets be located in the solar system but want to have them listed. These are special objects and should be treated as such. I am in agreement that there will be more added sooner than later but that should not preclude them from being mantioned when they are declared as such. Even the new picture of the solar system included Dwarf Planets as a different and seperate class of planet, but still an important one. And if ONE other person is a majority in wikipedia when the discussion has been up for over an hour I dont think that is right. Please lets try to get a real response before a majority is called! -- UKPhoenix79 10:55, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

You still do not understand. And I have no idea how I am going to get you to understand except to repeat what I have already said about six times. This article is not arranged by class. This article is arranged by region. If it were arranged by class, there would be no "inner planets" section and no "outer planets" section. Instead, there would simply be a "planets" section, and all planets would be grouped together. There would be no mention of the asteroid belt, only a mention of Ceres among the dwarf planets and the asteroids among minor solar system bodies. There would be no mention of the Kuiper belt, only Pluto among dwarf planets and the remaining KBOs under minor solar system bodies. There would be no mention of the scattered disc, only Xena among the dwarf planets. There would be no mention of the heliopause or of the heliospheric current sheet, because they fall outside the boundaries of class. The fact that the three dwarf planets are indeed dwarf planets is amply mentioned in this article; please do not disrupt its regional structure to hammer the point home unnecessarily. Serendipodous 11:06, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Im with Serendipidous on this one -- Nbound 11:16, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

I also agree with Serendipidous Scott Osborne 02:30, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Layout of Photos & text in article

Maybe its just me, but if you decide to edit the article, please, please make sure that when you are done there aren't any big ugly spaces between headings and the start of the text or pictures pushing the words into the center of the page - make sure it looks tidy, like an encyclopedia should. It looks like this article is a candidate for good or featured status, and if the arrangement of the article looks sloppy, that idea is going to get shot down. Scott Osborne 02:30, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

It's difficult to plan for that sort of thing, because different computers will show the layout differently. I haven't noticed any big gaps on my computer screen. Ironically, your alterations have actually made the article harder to read for me. Serendipodous 07:04, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

I just tried a different formulation; how does that look? Serendipodous 20:39, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Regarding relative distances of orbits and the Kuiper belt

I noticed that neither the previous version of the final paragraph of "Layout," nor the most recent version, give justice to the nuances of planetary orbits or to the scientific modesl thereof. The article contradicts itself by saying that, "...the classical Kuiper belt begins roughly 10 AU from the orbit of Neptune," (last paragraph of Layout) and then later saying the Kuiper belt "...actually begins inside the orbit of Neptune...." (Second paragraph of Kuiper belt). Also, merely calling historical attempts to explain planetary orbits "unsuccessful" denies them [the theories] the human effort that attempted to create them and the intrinsic verve that inspired later more "modern" theories.

I propose here that we not mention either historical or contemporary theories in that particular line of the main article, but that we instead add a footnote detailing which theory from antiquity set the precedent of searching for a model and which contemporary theories exist in pursuit of said model.

Since I am afraid of being "bitten" by the "Be Bold"-sayers, I say now that I am proposing this as opposed to doing it since I am not a particularly experienced editor myself, nor do I know many particular details concerning the minutia of the solar system, nor am I willing to fully engage myself in this article as it has a long, detailed, and embittered history which I am unwilling to engage myself in.

Thank you.

--Iamunknown 05:37, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

That is not necessarily a contradiction. The classical belt is different from the resonant belt, which begins before the orbit of Neptune. According to Wikipedia's own Kuiper belt article, the classical belt begins at roughly the 2:3 resonance (that is, 39.5 AU, or 9.5 AU farther out than Neptune). Perhaps that could be elaborated on in the Kuiper belt article. The whole issue can be avoided anyway by simply saying that Neptune's orbit is roughly 20 AU farther out than that of Uranus.In fact that would make a lot more sense. I'll switch it.

The whole issue of Bode's Law, which seems to attract a lot of speculation, is one that this article has deliberately shied away from. The main reason for that is that, first of all, Bode's law does not fit all the orbits, particularly for Neptune, but also for "Xena". People across the spectrum of amateur science have expended a great deal of effort trying to solve the discepancies of Bode's law; however that does not mean that, until a solution emerges that is scientifically reviewed and accepted, that this article, which is first and foremost scientific, should give them credence. Serendipodous 09:22, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Would it be responsible to mention the quixotic attempts to solve the discrepancies in Bode's law? I do not propose putting the amateur theories at an equal footing as Bode's law, but perhaps we could move both Bode's law and any mention of amateur attempts to a footnote. --Iamunknown 19:30, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

No. This is not an article about Bode's law. Even putting that info into a footnote in the Bode's law article would be a contentious decision. Serendipodous 20:59, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

"Rafie's Law"

Chantelle2004 rewrote the last sentence of the "Layout" section as follows:

OLD TEXT: "Attempts have been made to determine a correlation between these distances (see Bode's Law, Rafie’s Law), but to date there is no accepted theory that explains the respective orbital distances."

NEW TEXT: "Unsucessful attempts have been made in the past to determine a correlation between these distances (see Bode's Law). However a recent paper published in the Astronomical and Astrophysical Transactions Journal (see Rafie’s Law), calculates the orbital distance as a function of the orbital number, the eccentricity and the inclination of the orbits."

I'm concerned about this reference to "Rafie's Law", and whether or not it is an appropriate addition to the article. I've done a bit of Googling this evening and I can't find any references to the term "Rafie's Law". Frank Rafie seems to trace back to Lake Washington Technical College in the state of Washington, USA. The reference source listed in the Rafie's Law article is listed for sale here, with the following description:

"...The purpose of this paper is to demonstrate that the specific angular momentum (angular momentum per unit mass) of any planet in the Solar System can be expressed in terms of the specific angular momentum of the planet Mercury and, consequently, to prove that the semi-major axis of any planet, asteroid or comet can be expressed as a multiple of the semi-major axis of Mercury."

The paper is categorized as a research paper, and it was published in Astronomical & Astrophysical Transactions, described as "the Journal of the Eurasian Astronomical Society". The journal is described as "...a forum for the rapid publication of material from all modern and classical fields of astronomy and astrophysics, as well as material concerned with astronomical instrumentation and related fundamental sciences. It includes both theoretical and experimental original research papers, short communications, review papers and conference reports."

No slight intended against Chantelle2004, and my sincere apologies if there are any errors on my part. However, the editor's only edits to date are to write the article about the "law" and then insert statements in this article that (in my opinion) presents it as the "solution" to an old problem. Given PlanetCeres's recent attempts to spam information about the "New Bode Adjustment" (a revision of Bode's Law), I'd like to open this up for discussion before the text is returned to the article. (This may also be affected by discussion of Iamunknown's points above.) Thanks. --Ckatz^chat_spy 08:12, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Voortle, can you please explain why you are reverting Eris's name?

It's official. It's been officially listed by the Minor Planet Center. That's its name. What's the problem?

EDIT: Hmm. I'm confused. Anyway. Seems like you changed it back. OK. No hard feelings. Serendipodous 03:09, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

fixed vandalism

I restored the previous version. Someone had vandalized the page and replaced it with something inappropriate. See page history.