Talk:Soka Gakkai International/Archive 9

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Getting ready to rework the midsection

I have done some editing of History, Practice, and Excommunication sections, but the Doctrine and Criticism sections still need work (too tired to do it today, and other matters press). After that's all done, I will make another pass to remove redundacies, including redundant links (some concepts are linked more than once—bad style). If you have information to add or other suggestions, please make them so I can incorporate them in a consistent manner (or do it yourself). I suggest not deleting material that you merely do not like or agree with. Thanks to all involved, Jim_Lockhart 15:15, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

I like the edits. I think its much clearer, much more fair and unbiased. I think it makes clear the distinction between SG and SGI, and puts perspective on the organizations' development that add real information. I noticed a few points probably those you didn't get to) that still seemed they could use some "neutralizing", so I gave it a shot. Hope you like it and don't mind. I don't think I deleted anything, just reorganized, tried to rephrase a bit, and add some points for perspective and clarification... Thanks. - Ruby--151.198.23.150 06:11, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

The criticsm section could use some reworking too, it looks too much more like a apologetist section now. We could summarise the part on the cult of personality explaination. The unverifiable quote on SGI not being a buddhist organization is suspect too and should be removed. I hope someone can give me further input on my suggestion.Gammadion 01:12, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

I was thinking the same, but it is a delicate area. And as Ruby will promptly (and rightly) point out, sources are needed. Also, you mention "religious equality laws," so I assume you're thinking of the situation in a certain country or countries; people (readers) outside those countries may not understand what is meant, so some explanation may be necessary. G'day, Jim_Lockhart 02:25, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

Ruby's edits of 2005.11.29

Hi Ruby. I would say your edits today are a fair attempt to brings things more in line with a neutral point of view, but I also think we have a bit to go.

For the time being, I copy-edited this a bit to cut out some redundancy and make it a bit more concise (e.g., if you [generic you] write continues to serve as..., adding to this day is redundant because the predicate already implies that).

A historical inaccuracy is the statement about State Shinto. I believe (but have to check) the government started making Shinto the state religion back in the 1870s and it was more rigorous enforcement of this (by requiring people to install kami-fuda in their homes and workplaces) that initially brought Makiguchi and Toda into conflict with the secret police. (Things they said at discussion meetings where also a cause.)

Also, the references to Nichiren Buddhism, whether intended to be such or otherwise, look like an obfuscation: Makiguchi and Toda were interested in Nichiren Shoshu, an no other form of Nichiren Buddhism; why not just be straightforward and say so? I think that would be better than presentation that leaves itself open to accusation, given that the relationship is a matter of historical record.

Finally, the section on Daisaku Ikeda is too long for this article: it goes too far in shifting focus from SG/SGI (the subject of this article) to him. If I had my druthers, I'd shorten it to just a few lines and leave the rest to the Daisaku Ikeda article (that's what hyperlinks are for... <g>).

One last thing: I changed practitioners' dissatisfaction with having lost President Ikeda for two reasons:

1. "practitioners" alone implies all practitioners of NS Buddhism, which is inaccurate; it was SG members who were dissatisfied.
2. "loss of Pres. Ikeda" implies that Ikeda died or something. I know what you mean: members were unhappy that Ikeda was no longer their president, so I tried to rephrase it that way.

I find that some of the other events are also a bit mischaracterized, but I think they can stand as-is for the time being and be balanced out somewhere else.

Best regards Jersey_Jim 05:55, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

Hi Jim. I checked out some of your comments in the main article, provided citations where I could, and worked on the State Shinto question (more below). I and understand and accept much of the criticism about the length of the entries and going off on Ikeda, but would like to point out these were attempts to neutralize by introducing additional info, and using language that would soften (rather than cutting out) what was leaning a bit to far to the other side. As long neutrality is maintained, I don't have a problem with making edits to it.

The use of "Nichiren Buddhism" was just an oversight, really. It is commonly referred to in that way, elsewhere. But I can appreciate the point - technically, it was Nichiren Shoshu Buddhism that they practiced. However, since we're talking about it, I do think it can be argued that their (Makiguchi up until today's SGI) practice existed seperate from Nichiren Shoshu - I mean, their ideas were there, and the religion just provided a framework for it intiailly. Then, esp. after WWII, the relationship was a mutually advantageous one -- Makiguchi, esp. Toda, accepted (welcomed?) the priesthood's overseeing ceremonial rights, like funerals, and such, and SG brought a whole bunch or paying practioners to NS. NS gave authenticity to SG (this point I can document). I think that it is worth pointing out, but if it can't be stated explicitly, it seems fair to avoid the detailed argument by just sticking with the generic term. [Besides, one of the main reasons, as far as I know, that Makiguchi and Toda even belonged to NS formally was because it was imposed upon them by state law (in that same time period, I believe) that they all citizens must belong to a temple. As I understood it, practioners of Nichiren Buddhism prior to that didn't necessarily have to belong to any one sect; in fact, many practiced individually, and seperate from any priesthood at all, as was fitting to Nichiren's views, really (unless you are in NS and believe in the priesthood framework) -- I read this somewhere, but I'll find the source on that, though, before introducing it any further.]

As for use of "practioners" I get your point -- but I don't fully agree with it - I don't believe it implies "all of" any group - merely "those of the practitioners who..." Perhaps "many practitoners" would be better? To use anything else seems to me to lean back towards a sort of derogation of those folks. At any rate, I think that whole section still needs work, from both sides, frankly -- it's still just too touchy. I am looking into some sources to use for support and language. Will try to get something in later this week.

In my understanding and reading of the Shinto question, it is one of those cultural things -- Shinto is the national (read, "native") religion and has been forever, because it is native to the country. In the late 1800s the Emperors role changed -- but in fact many other relgions had existed in Japan alongside Shinto for centuries. In fact, the 1889 Constitution had a provision for religious freedom in it - something that had not existed before, and was actually a reflection of a desire to become more western and more open. (see State of Civil Society in Japan, ed. Frank Schwartz)

I liken the situation to here in the states - Christianity is, basically our national relgions -- but we don't all practice it, nor is it imposed upon us that we join a church, all have crucifixes in our homes, etc. As I understand it, it was in the 1920s and 1930s that the government really started stepping into people's lives,regulating religion, by trying to restructure them, and to demand that all citizens practice Shinto, etc. That is a dramatic change, and what is really meant (in my view) when we talk about "State Religions". I edited, but given other commentaries here, it will probably be considered too lengthy. Edit if you want, but I hope the intent will remain - that is to show the shift from a national to a state religion, and how and why that had the impact it did on the developement of SG...With that, I bid you adieu. Trying t change my ways, so logging off (relatively) early tonight! -- Ruby --70.111.27.59 07:10, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

Hi Ruby. Sorry for not getting back to you—I ran into another busy patch as well as got side-tracked by a couple of other articles. I'll get back to you on the details above as soon as I can, perhaps over the weekend. On the Shinto question: please have a look at the Wiki article on Shinto, specifically the section on Shinto#State Shinto and the description further down the page on the different types of Shinto. This article is, to my (admittedly limited) knowledge of the subject, historically accurate. More details later. G'day :), Jersey_Jim 03:14, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

No problem. Life's gotten a bit hectic for me as well, lately. No time for much tonight either, but did make a few slight changes, spelling here and there (my typos are out of control - apologies to all!!) and deleted the word "unfortunately" as was suggested by reader above...that's about it. I'll keep checking back, though... Peace! - Ruby--70.111.27.59 07:34, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

Suggest new introductory lead

I think this article needs a new introductory lead, and I've tried one (see below) to see if it would meet with participants' expectations. Be warned: there will be something for everyone to like and for everyone to hate <g>, so please be fair.

Once this is out of the way, then maybe we can tackle the body, which I think needs an organization plan or outline of some sort. I also wonder if Soka Gakkai and Soka Gakkai International do not warrant separate articles with cross references where the two organizations overlap. Other SGI subsidiary organizations—such as SGI-USA, SGI-UK—when big enough, might also warrant discrete articles.

This suggestion is a bit long as a lead-in, so let's see what we can do to pare it down without sacrificing any informational content. (One way to do this is to say something only once, which I have no necessarily done here.)

Here goes...

Soka Gakkai International (創価学会インターナショナル) is the international umbrella organization for local Soka Gakkai organizations in over 190 countries. Founded at a function on Guam on January 26, 1975, as the International Buddhist League and later renamed Soka Gakkai International (SGI), it has over 12 million members, who practice a form of Nichiren Buddhism. As its name suggests, the SGI was born as a sub organization of the Japan-based Soka Gakkai from which it later took over its current function as the international umbrella. that developed as a response to the spread of the religion to other countries.

Soka Gakkai was originally formed as Sōka Kyōiku Gakkai (lit. "Value-Creation Education Society") in 1930, an organization whose goal was the reform of the then highly militaristic education system to one more humanistic in its aims. Its founders became convinced that the practice of Nichiren Buddhism could affect the change they sought to achieve. Following World War II, during its reconstruction, Sōka Kyōiku Gakkai became Soka Gakkai, an organization whose function was to provide support to followers of Nichiren Buddhism, particularly Nichiren Shoshu, with which it was affiliated. Soka Gakkai grew rapidly during the post-war period due in large part to the efforts of its president, Josei Toda, and as a lay organization of the Nichiren Shoshu school of Japanese Buddhism. It gave birth to supported the development of a number of subsidiary organizations in Japan, including a publishing arm, with a newspaper (Seikyo Shimbun) claiming 5 million daily subscribers, a political party, and a school system. It is strongly pacifist and has a decidedly cultural facet, yet, at least during its affiliation with the Nichiren Shoshu priesthood, has been known in the past for "strident conversion activities," (cite please) and was considered by some to be a tightly regimented organization.(cite please)

As Japan's largest single religious group organization, Soka Gakkai has become a is now an major important influence in the country's society and politics, as well as a focus of controversy: Though formally separate from the New Komeito Party, Soka Gakkai is perceived by many of the public as being the de facto controlling entity. Soka Gakkai promotes numerous good causes, yet the organization and its motivations are widely frequently mistrusted. As an organization, it donates generously to victims of natural disasters, and its members support each other in the most mundane and sublime of ways,( cite "Buddhists in America", among others. Its membership donations go to wards building and supporting lavish (or cite this - ours, for example, is far from "lavish"!) activity centers to support the membership in their practice, provide meeting spaces, and act as organizational and operational centers. It is accused by some of the media, particularly in Japan, (cite sources) of being a vast money-making machine (cite or rephrase). Outside Japan, Soka Gakkai International promotes cultural exchange and peace initiatives, but has also been accused of being a cult, for example by the French government (cite) (NOTE: the French Government has a very broad definition of a cult -- Jehovah's Witness, Seventh Day Adventists, Mormons, Christian Scientists, and the Universal Church of God also fit on their list, and though I personally might agree, at least in the case of Jehovah's Witness, I am not sure of the value in using them as a source for this complaint, unless you also explain France's system for defining cults and/or the fact that they include other religious organizations which here in the US are not necessarily considered to be "cults.") (see http://cftf.com/french/Les_Sectes_en_France/cults.html)

Detailed explanations of particular aspects and occurrences (I may have been a bit too specific here, too) should going into the body of the article, not the lead. I look forward to your input :). Best regards, Jersey_Jim 02:25, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

Hi Jim - I made some edits in the above introduction. Hope they help. I noticed there is still some tendency to mix SG and SGI together, so that might want to be clarified. So, I agree, I think individual articles might be necessary... I italicized my edits, and crossed out what I though was biased, repetitive, or whatever. I also thought there was a need to place some of the contents in context, and/or to provide citations to support certain points. I put in the one that I knew of...you may know of others...? Look forward to hearing your responses. Night! - Ruby --70.111.27.59 05:09, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

Discussion continues on the main talk page at Talk:Soka Gakkai International#Rude awakening: where to go from here.