Talk:Software patent debate

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[edit] Impossible to read so many patents

One of the criticisms raised against software patents (and patents in general), is that it is extremely expensive to have a qualified patent attorney read through all potentially relevant patents and determine if a particular piece of software infringes any of them. The use of keyword searches helps, but since inventors can be their own lexicographers, there may be critical patents missed.

Is there anyone working on automated means for determining if a given piece of software infringes a patent? Any open source efforts? If so, I think at least a mention of these efforts would be an excellent addition to this and other patent articles.--Nowa 10:59, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

But how'd you write such software in a software patented world? --(ip) 16:08, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
It is still possible. This article is not about whether writing software by everyone is desirable. You can write software after you cleared the rights. Podmok 23:55, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Anon comment

I removed this comment:

NOT ALL SOFTWARE IS PATENTABLE: only software which embodies a new, useful, non-obvious invention is patentable. Lumping all software together for a discussion of patents is similar to racism: because software is computer code it "all looks the same." Under law, an invention is only patentable when it is non-obvious or lacks an inventive step. If an invention exists but it is an obvious improvement to one of ordinary skill in the art, it can still be protected as a trade secret. If no software is patentable (and thus the idea will not become public), it may stifle innovation more than buying a license under a patent. - User talk:68.77.170.34

as it is more commentary than encyclopedic writing. --Trödel 20:28, 21 November 2006 (UTC)


[edit] keeping up to date with developments

something recent - http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20061215131844340

Since the wikipedia article is not really up to date and its not really a well defined issue in regards to what software is, perhaps it should simple be removed. to use an analogy is to create an article debate as to whether or not we should have the hindu-arabic decimal system replacing the roman numeral system. Now wouldn't that be silly? Or how about whether or not the earth is the center of the universe? There was a time when it was up for debate but today we know the answer and its not an opinion, but opinions are exactly what this debate is and will remain until the facts of what software is are accepted, then there won't be a debate, nor this article. Unless its a who won what and that really would not be neutral.

I'm not sure I'm following your point, but I think an addition to the article referencing the groklaw article would be a good contribution. As far as whether or not articles on controversies (or debates) are appropriate for Wikipedia, there is certainly precedent. See Evolution_debate. I get the sense, however, that you feel that it is self evident that software should not be patentable. Many certainly share your view. Many others, however, equally well educated and knowledgeable, look at the same facts and come to the opposite conclusion. Hence the fact that the debate exists and the fact that the issue is currently before the US Supreme Court. --Nowa 03:28, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
PLEASE DO NOT REMOVE THE ARTICLE!
I found this entry very useful. Together with this talk page provides a good, balanced starting point.
It should be noted, that the European Parliament did not ratify the proposed unified European legislation (CII) on software patents. However, maybe this is not the final word yet. --User:BruckP 1 February 2007
Parliament does not "ratify". The Commission proposes legislation, parliament and council may reject or amend it. Podmok 23:57, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
That Groklaw article adds nothing new and The Software Freedom Law Center view is already plenty represented within the article. The view that software "cannot be a component of a patented invention" is also a very extreme view, so therefore should not be over-represented within the article. The reason I say extreme is that, if accepted, it would exclude software-controlled ABS (and other real-world physical processes performed by computer programs) from patentability, something which very few people (including the FFII) actually want to see happening (See [1] and [2] for example).
As for the article: it's a mess and may be beyond saving, but is a useful example of how nobody agrees on anything when it comes to setting a dividing line between patentable and non-patentable when it comes to software. It's a shame the article is painted as being a black and white debate (since that falls in the hands of extremists), but hopefully any intelligent reader will still be able to glean that there are many many shades of gray. I therefore say keep the article. GDallimore 10:12, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
A table could be helpful. Podmok 23:49, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
I disagree, this article should stay and it should not be removed, it should be improved. The reason being is that patents in technology is on the rise especially as it relates to software. There are some interesting rulings still to be made by higher courts in the US as well as federal courts in Australia, courts in New Zealand etc. To simply say lets withdraw the article is absurd. I have no issue with providing information in the for and against debate that can be directly attributable to legal argument. Mtukaki 02:21, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

After taking some time to try and work around the issue, I would like to argue against the maintaining of the majority of this article, and would take the side of removal of it or recreating it using a different focus. The main problem I see is based on the topic itself being turned into a discussion forum for various soapbox attempts. This is not necessarily saying that as an article overall it is not NPOV by expressing both sides, but that the article itself has degraded into an actual debate as opposed to studying the debate itself. There is a large chunk of this article which follows this pattern

  • Software patents may affect open source and small to medium software enterprises (SMEs) that do not have a large defensive patent portfolio.
    • If SMEs are not as inventive as large corporations then society would benefit from their removal.
      • The number of patents filed is not a measure of inventiveness.
      • The value to society should not be measured by inventiveness.
      • Open source and small to medium companies might believe they are inventive in creating new ideas and software, but maybe blocked from doing so by an existing patent on one of the algorithms they desire to use, originally created another person, that ends up blocking all uses without a proper license.

This expresses both sides of the argument, but is in fact an argument itself. It is pushing forward many individual opinions for and against patents and not pulling back to the topic at large. I think this article may still have hope, but don't see large sections of "one side vs other side" as the answer. Instead I would propose that the article takes the form of studying debates and activities dealing with software patent law that has occurred in the past, with more research going towards laws that have changed due to these debates and how various countries have been influenced by the success or failures of the patent system implementations of other countries. Then again, NPOV#POV_forks implies that points of view on a topic should be handled in the main topic itself, and not be forked off into another, so perhaps the issue would be better summarized within the Software Patent article itself, where it may get a more concise, and less opinionated showing.Roadm (talk) 06:22, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Time and effort to get a patent clearance opinion on a new piece of software

The following speculation was introduced to the article by an anonymous user:

contesting all the patents purporting to apply to a single piece of software could take thousands of man-hours

I removed the speculation and others since it was unreferenced. None the less, can anyone cite a reference that provides data on what a patent clearance opinion typically costs for a significant piece of software?--Nowa 12:58, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] First Software patent?

First software patent? us patent 1700
First software patent? us patent 1700

The article makes the assertion that software is merely an mathematical algorithm. Does that make this 1840 patent the first "software" patent? us patent 1700?--Nowa 13:03, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Does mathematics or algorithms qualify as software? Note that e.g. the EPC excludes software and algorithms, it is not the same.Podmok 23:59, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Patents cause serious harm to small companies

The article states that one of the arguments against patentability of software is "The U.S. patent system has caused serious harm to small companies in the U.S.". I put a "citation needed" on this because I wasn't sure that this was actually an argument put forward by opponents to software patents. I wasn't questioning whether or not the assertion was true, just whether or not it was part of the debate.--Nowa 11:15, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

I think it is part of the debate, but the immediate comeback is that patents have also benefited small companies and individuals who would have been unable to compete against the big boys if said big boys had been able to rip-off the small company's innovative ideas. Where a fact tag would always belong would be on some assertion that the overall harm was greater than or more relevant than the overall benefit. Many people have opinions on such things, but nobody knows for certain. GDallimore (Talk) 11:30, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
please cite your source. The point is that the application of the patent system to a certain field must be justified by an economic rationale, not the non-application of the patent system. The reason is that the natural state is the free market. Here the patent system by its virtues restricts the free market in order to solve a problem, i.e. market failure. You reverse the burden of proof Podmok 23:48, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
I think there are references available than can reflect the true nature of the failing of the patent system to protect small business, but i would suggest it is more universal that simply pondering its affects on us business. The use of business method patents which is the patenting of a process that could mean the invention of pretty much anything described in two sentances of less is an example. Real life examples could be the international banking systems. Mtukaki 02:18, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
It is not software specific, in general the patent system discriminates small companies, economies of scale are the main reason and prohibitive fees. I think it does not really belong to the debate. Podmok 00:02, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
References are easy to find here; look for any news article on Vonage. 24.59.104.253 20:36, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] NPOV

I added a {{NPOV}}.

The arguments FOR software patents are immediately followed by rebuttals. The arguments AGAINST software patents are immediately followed by explanations and elaborations.

Either rebutt in both sections, or elaborate in both sections.

I prefer the elaboration route myself, as rebuttals after each line make wikipedia look like a debaters club. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wcudmore (talk • contribs)

OK, we need a decision on this page. Currently it's not tolerable. Do we put rebuttals underneath arguments or not? If we do, it should be done more systematically; if we don't, there's a lot to delete. 24.59.104.253 20:41, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Some of the rebuttals in the FOR section already exist as arguments in the AGAINST section, I suggest that all the rebuttals be rewritten that way and removed from the FOR section. If necessary the related points in opposite sections could reference each other briefly, i.e by inserting "(however, see...)" immediately after the explanation of the argument. Ecoffey 04:22, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Moved the NPOV to the sections - plese to not NPOV whole article next time!--Kozuch (talk) 19:55, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] List of software patents

The companion article to this one, listing important software patents, has just been nominated for featured list status. Please take a look, see how that article might be improved and leave comments. Let's prove that there can be at least one uncontroversial article on this topic! Thanks. GDallimore (Talk) 15:08, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] NPOV

It is not NPOV to quote the pro arguments first as it is a common media scheme to refer to the stronger party first (see news articles), that is why the article is biased. I would prefer a table, which also makes it look better. Podmok 23:44, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Tautology

"Organizations should be able to protect their intellectual property" is a non-argument. It assumes that intellectual property exist a priori. It is illogical. There is no patent without a patent system. Podmok 23:53, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Adding neturality to this discussion

This page is largely twisted in its view point on software patents. Clearly, for instance every positive argument should not be softened with a negative statement with every negative statement left to stand on its own. The page should not be introduced with an article that attacks patentability and is presented as a fair and neutral analysis. Statements in the negative side are largely obvious exaggerations and unsupported, such as "The U.S. patent system has caused serious harm to small companies in the U.S," (have they, or maybe they have, this statement should be softened) "without producing any real value" (what is value, maybe products would be more neutral), "it is not possible to avoid patented technology, because no mechanism for avoiding patent-related risk exists" (licensing and insurance are obvious mechanisms not mentioned), "his is in large part due to the enormous number of micro-niches in the software field and the relatively limited number of examiners" (really? no, its due to the amount of patents being filed and the lack of funding in the USPTO right now), "Many leaders in the software industry" (really, who? many? how about some?) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.61.40.175 (talk) 18:34, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Neutrality

This article seems to have swung the other way, and is now in favor of software patents. Most pro-software-patent entries have reinforcement, while all the anti-software-patent entries have snide rebuttals. This article needs to be heavily reworked. I say remove the rebuttals from all viewpoints; let the opposite view stand on its own in the other section. Only supporting details should be listed below each entry.

Cjstone618 (talk) 02:18, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Some might say that having rebuttals for the anti-sp entries says something about the points being made, not the neutrality of the article. Of course this article's a mess. Nobody disputes that, but wholesale removal of content is not going to solve the problem. The content that is there needs sourcing. Only if it cannot be sourced should it be removed. Then the structure can be revisited. You wanna take on that job 'cause nobody else seems to have the time or inclination. GDallimore (Talk) 08:49, 10 March 2008 (UTC)