Talk:Society for Creative Anachronism

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[edit] Criticism and authenticity -- varies from region to region.

While at Purdue, I considered joining but was annoyed when, after crafting an interesting persona that was perfectly feasible, I was informed that I wouldn't be able to use it.

The persona was effectively a crazy person (there were, after all, nutters back in the day, too) who, because he was born with a minor birth defect in the form of pointy ears (also really happens from time to time) and being persecuted through childhood about it, came to the conclusion that he was not really human but a changeling placed by the fair folk (still don't see anything unreasonable about this... such a person's *parents* might have even made such an accusation, if not directly told thie child he had the devil in him).

Sounded perfectly reasonable to me and totally feasible -- and far more understandable then seeing a samurai from the Genpo wars dueling with a Legionnaire of the Eleventh. Besides, I thought it would be pretty fun.

Yet the local group denied it because it was 'too absurd and too much like I was claiming to be an elf' (mind you, I wasn't--the *persona* was) and that I didn't take it seriously enough.

So I gave up, basically deriding the group as what the article calls 'period nazis,' and stupid ones at that to not grasp the idea that a person could have been a bit off his rocker in the supposed period represented as well.

When I moved out to California, I met some other SCA members who said quite clearly that not only would there be no problem with this, but that they knew people who claimed their personae *were* elves and this was accepted.

Thus the balance between authenticity, fun, and creativity all seem to vary from locale to locale, at least in the areas I've encountered.208.54.15.187 17:20, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

I won't state the specific shires involved nor their IRL city names, but I do remember when I lived in one city, many of my friends who were members of the SCA tended to dislike their local shire, and would instead go do things with members one city away from us. The leadership and many of the members in our local shire were seen as "Period Nazi's", the other city's Barony were seem as much more lax, much more willing to just enjoy themselves, and much more willing to help new members without being instantly critical or shooting down ideas just because they didn't fit our local shire's concept of "Period". Anyway, I guess my point is that what you encountered can often happen even between two cities very close to each other, each with it's own SCA group. As an aside, your persona concept is very unique, not sure I had ever seen anyone try to pull off what you decided to develop. Having said that, I was active in the mid 90's, I haven't been to an event in about 10 or 11 years now. 76.178.105.2 14:17, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Combat to determine a 'king' is inauthentic

This heading doesn't seem to belong. It smacks of POV, and the subsequent paragraph reads like it was written by someone making this criticism, rather than by someone objectively recounting the criticism. Also, the SCA's basis for the custom should be presented in response to the criticism in order to maintain overall balance in the article. I'm thinking about changing the heading to "Authenticity of Determining 'King' by Combat". Wilhelm meis (talk) 18:47, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Organization

I'm thinking about putting the groups in the "Organization" paragraph into outline format, to give clarifying visual cues. It would look something like this: In typical order from generally most to least populous:

The following definitions come from the SCA Corpora, p.6, (except added notes):

  • Kingdom: area ruled by a King and Queen (typically covering several U.S. states or Canadian provinces, and can be as large as countries or collections of countries)
    • Principality: area within a kingdom ruled by Prince and Princess (large area sometimes comprising entire states)
      • Barony: area administered by a Baron and/or Baroness, the ceremonial representative(s) of the Crown (small chapter typically occurring in an urban area)
        • Canton: local branch reporting through a barony (local chapter, which may be on the way to becoming a shire)
      • Province: equivalent of barony without ceremonial representative
        • Riding: local branch reporting through a province
        • Shire: local branch reporting directly to a kingdom or principality (local chapter typically occurring in rural areas)
        • College: institutional branch based at a school, research facility, etc. (often occurring within a Barony)
        • Stronghold: institutional branch based at a military installation
        • Port: institutional branch based at a military installation in situations where groups of members will be detached for long periods, as with ships at sea

Wilhelm meis (talk) 23:20, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] To those who critize...

While I understand that rattan weapons and the armor worn by the fighting members may not be authentic, would you like to climb into a ring with me wearing a complete suit of chain or even ring armor with me and a blunted metal sword? I weigh 220 lbs. and am just over 6 foot, with only a hint of a gut. Oh and we'll take off your plastic rimmed glasses so you can't see, because your to busy to make yourself some wood frames. Of course we should probably both bring our lawyers and sign completely legal and binding releases so that after I hit you on the first swing and break one of your limbs you can't sue me, nor I you.

The SCA is for fun and study. While not necessarily totally authentic show me one modern day reenactment group that is in every single way.

Be constructive not nonconstructive, that's the whole point of Wikipedia. I'm off to the next article where people are bashing as opposed to being constructive. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.124.51.126 (talk) 18:06, 21 January 2008 (UTC)


I have already sparred against other SCA fighters larger than 6 foot and 220 pounds and still won many of those matches so I feel like I have every right to criticize the SCA on their sparring rules, which are clearly biased in favor of sword and board fighters. I also criticize the way fighters who are not part of their upper hierarchy are prevented from having a say in their sparring rules. The SCA as an organization has a habit of being ambiguous in the way they explain things in order to avoid logical criticisms. Midiman Alex (talk) 00:58, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

The section "Tradeoffs - safety vs authenticity" has no cites and is incorrect. The correctness can be argued, of course, but the lack of cites is doubtless. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.107.2.195 (talk) 01:22, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Whatever the SCA is about isn't relevant. It isn't a wikipedia article if it isn't verifiable. 76.120.40.131 (talk) 01:27, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Undid deletions by User:GuyWeknow

User GuyWeknow deleted big chunks of the text. No comment on this page explaining what is wrong with these or how the problems could be fixed except to comment that a NPOV tag had been on one para for a while and the para had not been fixed.

As the deleted sections contained information on the operation of this organisation and noone has claimed this information is false therefore I have restored it.

If the info is written slightly from an SCA point of view this is not fatal for this type of detail since the information is not controversial and it is describing how the SCA works. All of this means that a copyedit to improve the style and some additional citations are required. It does not justify deleting big chunks with no replacement. I took the NPOV tag off in case it was misinterpreted this way again.Filceolaire (talk) 22:07, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

It wasn't deleted for NPOV it was deleted for lack of citations, i.e. independent research. 76.120.40.131 (talk) 01:29, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] References

I've done some work on the references today, and I'll do more later, as I get time. This article continues to have problems with claims, paragraphs, and whole sections lacking references. There have also been some issues with neutrality and original research, but the main issue I see is verifiability. Many sections of text have been derived from a documentable source, but without any reference to that source. In some cases, I'm afraid this has amounted to copyright violations. I'm asking for everyone's help here to improve the quality of this article by maintaining neutrality and verifiability, and dealing patiently with differences of opinion about what the SCA is to different people. Wilhelm meis (talk) 23:18, 24 May 2008 (UTC)


In adding references, the reference by Peter Webb was added (by Wilhelm Meis, without commenting on why that reference was added, on May 24th 2008). In one case it is patently obvious that the source was added simply as link spam, since the paragraph was already cited (the two cites sat right next to each other in the text). Reading the source, it is a source bashing the SCA, which in itself is neither good nor bad, however the material the source was allegedly citing was only quoted by Webb from SCA documents. So, eliminated this as it is neither a useful source nor objective neutrality Guy Weknow (talk) 15:59, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

As I said on your talk page, this source was added because, to the best of my ability to chase down the source of the existing phrase (I didn't add the comment, it was already there and I was just searching for references), the Webb article was in fact the source of the phrase. I certainly have no anti-SCA agenda (in fact, quite to the contrary), but I am just trying to clean up a poorly referenced article. I need your help - all of you - to get the material in this article properly referenced. When someone (like me) does the work to track down the sources and provide accurate references, and someone else (like an anon editor) swaps those references around without also changing the text as appropriate, phrases get misappropriated to the wrong sources. This is a form of vandalism. Please remember to assume good faith when reverting edits. One last thing, if you can find where the phrase "protest against the 20th century" appears in the source "SCA Intro", please show me. Thank you. Wilhelm meis (talk) 22:41, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

By the way, I don't think you understand what linkspamming is. Please review the verifiability and neutrality policies. You will find that all material that may be questioned, that makes a claim, that quotes or paraphrases a source, or otherwise requires a reference must be cited, and that the individual sources are not required to be neutral, but only to be verifiable and reliable, and the resulting WP article must be neutral. While I concede that in this case, the article in question fails the reliability test, again, I was simply searching for references for the unreferenced material that was already there, not trying to editorialize the references I found. Also, WP policy discourages adding a blanket reference at the end of a paragraph, implying that it applies to the paragraph's entire content (since other editors may later insert text from a different source), but rather encourages adding a reference to each applicable sentence. In some cases, as in the sentence The name "Society for Creative Anachronism" was coined by science fiction author Marion Zimmer Bradley, an early participant, when the nascent group needed an official name in order to reserve a park for a tournament, the sentence is a combination of citable information from two different sources, and therefor requires two citations. One final point: it is not necessary to comment on why each and every source is added, only the ones that are challenged. You challenged this one, but removing the challenged source should follow, not precede, the discussion. Wilhelm meis (talk) 02:06, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

I removed these unreferenced claims, since they have been tagged for nine months now:

As of 2005, only one Queen has been made "by her own hand" (that is, by winning a Crown Tournament herself), though two other Queens have served as Sovereign rather than Consort when their Prince or King died before or during their reign.[citation needed] There have also been at least seven instances of reigning Princesses who have won the Coronet List for their Principality.[citation needed] Wilhelm meis (talk) 23:29, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

OK, I have found alternate sources for all Webb references, so his article is no longer referenced at all. Please see this article from The Epoch Times. Everybody happy now? Wilhelm meis (talk) 00:57, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Authenticity vs. Racism vs. Eurocentrism?

While reading this article, and looking at the related websites and images, It dawned on me that aside from the obvious safety reasons why total authenticity for a registered non-profit org like this SCA group cannot ever be fully "authentic", as discrimination issues exist as well. The more "authentic" they should become, yes, they may become more "anachronistic" in this time, but also they would become more discriminatory.

There were not very many people of non-European descent in Europe yet at the time they focus on, and I'm not even sure how story told by the fellow above about a Samurai-character taking part fit into their "Known World", as it says on their site: "The SCA is an international organization dedicated to researching and re-creating the arts and skills of pre-17th-century Europe." They say nothing about pre-17th century Asia, Africa, or the Americas.

While I do notice that all* of the people pictured here are of fair skin tone and most likely of European descent; To be truly 'authentic', they would have to officially* disallow certain people from joining based on Race or, possibly, gender (as non-royalty women had very little rights in that time period-and were often held as servants). I don't think this would be allowed for a registered non-profit org?

Which brings up the question--should it be included in the article that this a Eurocentric organization? I'm not calling them "veiled Nazis", "racists" or even "Period Nazis", but it does seem that the underlying point of this group is to have a revival of EUROPEAN Middle Ages culture, not of Middle Ages culture of the world in general...Plus their symbol does incorporate something that appears to based on the Celtic Cross, which is nto inherently racist, but of-used to represent Euro-Nationalism.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celtic_cross#Political_symbol

??--71.194.236.53 (talk) 14:18, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

What on earth are you on about? 1) There were non-whites in Medieval Europe; there are certainly a number of them in the SCA (my own persona is Cherokee, thank you), and not just in the Great Dark Horde. 2) The organization is about the "Middle Ages", which is a European concept; that's not the same as being Eurocentric in any pejorative sense. 3)The symbol of the Kingdom of Northshield is based on a compass rose, not a Celtic cross. 3a) To associate the Celtic cross with racist morons is to accept their lies as meaningful. --Orange Mike | Talk 16:12, 3 June 2008 (UTC) (a/k/a Lord Inali of Tanasi, GDH)

Certainly agreed that the Middle Ages is a European concept, which applies nearly exclusively to Europe (the term was coined in reference to the time "between" the blossoming Greek and Roman cultures and the later "Renaissance" - or rebirth of the arts and sciences that had been suppressed throughout Christendom during the ascetic period in between). I think the above user has a problematic misunderstanding of medieval history, and probably way too much time and not enough sleep. Many cultures from outside Europe penetrated or at least influenced Europe before, during, and after the Middle Ages. The Huns came from central Asia and penetrated deep into Europe. The Turks, Persians, and Moors certainly had an influence in European societies and were therefor part of "The Known World", even if they weren't in Europe (which they were). The Moors pretty much owned southern Spain for most of the Middle Ages. Also, as Orangemike said, the SCA compass rose is not in any way connected to a Celtic cross (not that the Celtic cross is per se racist anyway). Wilhelm meis (talk) 01:28, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

I think the whole 'Celtic Cross' issue is caused by the use of a Northshield court picture at the top of the page. Unfortunatley, attempts to add the SCA arms to this page have been activley blocked by some parties, and so to those not familiar with the SCA, they might think the Northshield devices pictured are represenative of the SCA in general. For those who are not familiar with the SCA's device, it is a green laurel wreath on a gold field, as can be seen here: [www.sca.org] I am going to inquire on the Meridian herald's list on who 'owns' the SCA device and see if I can get an explict permission to use it on this page. --Donovan Ravenhull (talk) 06:53, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Seems like it should be acceptable under fair use policy, provided that a proper fair use rationale is stated here on the talk page as well as the image page. You might also look at WP:LOGO, Template:Non-free symbol, and Template:Withpermission. One other thing. When we had it before, it was on WikiMedia, but was deleted for possible copyvio (it also lacked the requisite fair use rationale. You might try uploading it to Wikipedia instead, but be sure to use the proper licensing and fair use rationale. Hope that helps! Wilhelm meis (talk) 04:48, 5 June 2008 (UTC) Oh, and by the way, the Northshield symbol is based on a compass rose, not a Celtic cross. Wilhelm meis (talk) 04:53, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Picture Diversiy

There are three images in the article with heraldy visible, all three being the arms of Northshield. From the discussion above, this has obviously led to the mistaken assumption that the arms of Northshield are the arms of the SCA. The only images I've found at Commons are of Northshield. It would be a good thing if we could get images showing heraldry other than Northshield's into the article. Dsmdgold (talk) 14:17, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

I wish we could get the Society arms displayed on this page again. Please see the image's deletion log and the WP policies and fair use templates in the above comment. Does anybody still have the Sca.svg file? Does anyone with a better understanding of the nuances of Fair Use (or with special knowledge of this case) know if restoring this image is permissable? Wilhelm meis (talk) 16:30, 6 June 2008 (UTC)