Talk:Socialist economics

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Socialist economics is a term which refers in its descriptive sense to the economic effects of nations with large state sectors where the government directs the kind and nature of production. In a normative sense, it applies to economic theories which advance the idea that socialism is the best form of economic [[arrangment,]] or solution to a particular problem.

this is a miss spelled word it should be arrangement


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I'm trying to clean this page up, having found it on 'needy' pages. Please join in! The Land 13:23, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

From the intro: "It can refer from the theories of Keynes to the Five Year Plans of Stalin." I'm unable to parse this sentance. --Starwed 11:46, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

Social economy does not nessecarily have anything to do with socialism. I believe it would be very inaccurate and misleading to merge the two articles.

-JN

Agreed--Social Economics is a field commonly taught in standard economics programs. The Harvard Graduate course description reads: "Economics 2811 : Social Economics Applies the tools of economics to explore social issues including crime, discrimination, racial and gender differences, poverty, family structure, urban problems, social interactions and peer effects, and intergenerational mobility." Social economics should, at the very least, not lead to socialist economics.

I've nominated Social economics for speedy deletion.--Jsorens 13:57, 19 April 2007 (UTC)


Contents

[edit] Proudhon

Another school of thought was that of the French radicals, exemplified by Pierre-Joseph Proudhon who is most famous for saying 'property is theft'. In their view the existence of personal property was against fundamental aspects of humanity.

I removed this because whoever wrote this has never read Proudhon. - FrancisTyers 21:36, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] 50% not covered yet

At least 50% of the subject has not been described yet - the system outside the USSR was different. Not mentioned Korea and several other Asian states. Cuba not mentioned. Many states rejected Soviet socialism and solved many propblems. The description of the Soviet economy does not describe the absurdity and cruelty of the system. Generally the test is biased~, pro-socialist. Xx236 08:38, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

Could you please keep your flag waving, anti-communist rhetoric down a bit? Thank you.

-G

The study of economics is related to social structures. I agree with the "not covered opinion" and in fact most people do. Just because Cuba has more doctors per capita does not truely relate that there are no hospitals/doctors that can be measured by American-centric standards. Apples vs Oranges. The person was only asking the worldly questions, not waving a flag. Socialism has produced less positive attributes that capitalism, undeniable, own it. Nothing is perfect. But to deny the "motivational plagues" of socialism and communism is immature and dangerous. G, you criticized questions and in doing so became what you didn't want to be. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.194.80.191 (talk) 20:20, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Categorizing of socialism

I don't agree with the following sentence:

Broadly speaking, socialism can be divided into three categories: revolutionary socialism, derived from the theories of Karl Marx, which describes the necessity of a "dictatorship of the proletariat", democratic state socialism, which envisions a democratically elected government with ownership of the "commanding heights" of the economy, and the social democracy which envisions socialism within the context of corporations and specialization of production, often in cohabitation of elements of capitalism.

I'm not sure the distinctions it makes are quite valid, and IMHO they aren't very practical when discussing economics either, as they are too much political in nature. Qwertyus 23:31, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

I am very much in agreement with you Qwertyus. I think the statement is conflating strategical orientations (revolution, reformist roads to socialism) and institutional structures/relationships and the result is not very illuminating. What are the distinctions you would come up with when defining a socialist economy?BernardL 21:43, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] POV/unaddressed subjects

I think the article is POV (1) because it defines certain socialist economic models out of socialism and (2) because it doesn't cover several socialist economic models. These would include, at the least:

Completely agree Jacob. Care to have a go? BobFromBrockley 14:10, 1 March 2007 (UTC) Also, why is there no Ricardian socialism page? Another task for you Jacob? BobFromBrockley 14:53, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
I'm not sure where to put these. Collectivism corresponds with Hahnel-Albert #4 and #5. Syndicalism can correspond with Hahnel-Albert #4 as well as group-private employee ownership. Mutualism would add individual-private employee ownership. I'm not really familiar with Ricardian and Hodgskinian positions.
The four periods hold up, with scattered mutualist and syndicalist references in the late 1820s, Proudhon's What is Property? in 1840 and the co-evolution of these forms with each other and with Marxism (and with liberal and then Austrian economics influencing later Mutualists like Tandy and Carson). From 1900-1920 you get the split between social democratic/reformist, Communist, and syndicalist views.... Jacob Haller 21:09, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
I guess "Socialist Political Economy before Marx" is the right place. Would probably split it into cooperative moddels and class-struggle models. Jacob Haller 21:09, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Development of socialist economics

Should this sentence really be in this article:

As such it is commonly regarded as a movement belonging to the modern era. Many socialists have considered their advocacy as the preservation and extension of the radical humanist ideas expressed in enlightenment doctrine such as Rousseau's Discourse on Inequality, Humboldt's Limits of State Action, or Kant's insistent defense of the French Revolution.

1. This is more for the History of socialism page, not here. 2. Which Humboldt? 3. Is there a better reference for this contentious statement than Chomsky's Perspectives on Power? BobFromBrockley 14:10, 1 March 2007 (UTC)


[edit] There's definitely a need for some criticism

I'm a Social Democrat myself, and I understand this. :P There's plenty to choose from, although I could debate every point I'm sure. --24.15.165.14 05:51, 19 April 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Janos Kornai et.al.

How can there be an article on the economics of socialist societies without mentioning the work of economists who came from socialist societies themselves and knew the system inside out? Janos Kornai wrote a number of excellent books on the subject (including "Economics of Shortage" - see shortage economy) and is still alive and active at Harvard and in Budapest. It would seem to me that his work deserves a few lines, and he´s probably not the only guy. -- --Thewolf37 01:32, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

If you have more info to add to the article, please do so, and feel free to use Kornai et al. as references. Also search around other articles such as Communist states to see if and whether any contributions you have to make would fit better there. --Nema Fakei 02:07, 27 June 2007 (UTC)