Talk:Socialist Party USA

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[edit] Ingsoc

I was just noticing this. I added a trivia section which compares the Socialist Party's logo to that of Ingsoc in 1984. Just an interesting sidenote. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.64.133.187 (talk) 02:32, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Stewart Alexander link

I removed the link for Stewart Alexander as it went to a sports personality who died in 1997, not the 2008 Vice Presidential candidate. Chegitz guevara 17:37, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "Soviet-style Communism"

I removed the line stating that the SP is "equally opposed to Soviet-style Communism as it is anti-capitalist." This is not accurately reflect the position of the Socialist Party. "Soviet-style" is first of all WAY too broad. Are we talking about the early Bolsheviks? Are we talking about Stalinism? Are we talking about the soviet (i.e. workers council) system that the Soviet Union was officially based on? If we're referring to Stalinism, we shouldn't be in the business of perpetuating the notion that Stalinism is communism or even a form of communism. We also should not be conflating Stalinism with early Bolshevism (the SP doesn't take any distinct position on the latter). SP members can certainly oppose both, but let's acknowledge that there is a fundamental difference. The "Who We Are" statement does use the language like "third force" and "equal opposition,", but it is simply an old statement, not a core document like the Statement of Principles, Platform, or Constitution. The 'Who We Are' statement also never uses the terms Soviet or Soviet-style. -Matt —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.46.30.76 (talk • contribs) 07:13, 17 November 2007 -David Schaich Talk/Cont 21:26, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

See the second and third paragraphs of the SoP, reproduced below:

Socialism is not mere government ownership, a welfare state, or a repressive bureaucracy. Socialism is a new social and economic order in which workers and consumers control production and community residents control their neighborhoods, homes, and schools. The production of society is used for the benefit of all humanity, not for the private profit of a few. Socialism produces a constantly renewed future by not plundering the resources of the earth.

Under capitalist and "Communist" states, people have little control over fundamental areas of their lives. The capitalist system forces workers to sell their abilities and skills to the few who own the workplaces, profit from these workers' labor, and use the government to maintain their privileged position. Under "Communist" states, decisions are made by Communist Party officials, the bureaucracy and the military. The inevitable product of each system is a class society with gross inequality of privileges, a draining of the productive wealth and goods of the society into military purposes, environmental pollution, and war in which workers are compelled to fight other workers.
As to the distinction between "early Bolshevism" and "Stalinism" see the SoP again, (reproduced below), and note the entire history of the refounded SP has a strain of anti-vanguardism and implicit anti-bolshevism (see the language on membership in democratic centralist organizations).

No oppressed group has ever been liberated except by its own organized efforts to overthrow its oppressors. A society based on radical democracy, with power exercised through people's organizations, requires a socialist transformation from below. People's organizations cannot be created by legislation, nor can they spring into being only on the eve of a revolution.

They can grow only in the course of popular struggles, especially those of women, labor, and minority groups. The Socialist Party works to build these organizations democratically.
The process of struggle profoundly shapes the ends achieved. Our tactics in the struggle for radical democratic change reflect our ultimate goal of a society founded on principles of egalitarian, non-exploitative and non-violent relations among all people and between all peoples.
To be free we must create new patterns for our lives and live in new ways in the midst of a society that does not understand and is often hostile to new, better modes of life. Our aim is the creation of a new social order, a society in which the commanding value is the infinite preciousness of every woman, man and child.
You are correct that "Soviet-Style" is not used in party documents, but the meaning is CENTRAL to the self definition of the party, and an important point for any summary of its positions. If you can come up with an alternative to "Soviet -Style" which is used in party documents (or documents you find more relevent), please substitute that term.
Also note, Leninists interested in softening the SP's take on leninist organizing have regularly deleted this same line for this article in the past. Hence a rather quick revert. Because of the identical edits in the past which were clearly bad faith, the bar to simply remove this line is pretty high. T L Miles (talk) 14:36, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
As for the "Soviet-style", I believe I added that (linking it to "Soviet Union" as opposed to "Soviet (council)" for further clarification) to clarify the even more ambiguous "Communism", which some could interpret as Marxism/Leninism/Stalinism/Maoism/etc. but others could interpret as the ideal stateless society envisioned by various socialists. -David Schaich Talk/Cont 16:20, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

--Re: "Soviet-style Communism"

David,

Nothing you quoted from the Statement of Principles even remotely pertains to the inaccurate line about equal opposition to Soviet-style Communism. The use of the term, "Communist" in the Statement of Principles is in quotes and quite obviously refers to Stalinism: "decisions are made by Communist Party officials, the bureaucracy and the military." If you want to say Stalinism, that would be a hell of a lot better than "Soviet-style" communism, although even that would not be entirely accurate. Language like "equal opposition" generally implies adherence to the "third camp" position and all of its implications. The SP, as a multi-tendency organization, does not fall neatly into that category either. For example, if you believe that a Stalinist state requires only a political revolution by the working class while a capitalist state requires both a political and social (i.e. class-based) revolution by the working class, the phrase "equal opposition" will not necessarily represent your view accurately. You may hold tremendous opposition to both capitalism and Stalinism (as the SP Principles do), but recognize that by successfuly abolishing capitalism, the Stalinist states do not have quite as far to go as the capitalist states. Furthermore one may hold the view that advanced capitalist states have an economic basis for imperialism while Stalinist states do not. While an SP member holding that perspective would again vehemently oppose the political systems of both capitalism and Stalinism, s/he might view Stalinist states as posing a less direct threat to international peace and the international struggles of working people than imperialist states do. This is all putting aside the fact that the third camp (i.e. "equal opposition ideology) going back to Shachtmanism, has often lead to direct support for imperialism. (Look at the origins of neoconservatism).

Your justification that "the entire history of the refounded SP has a strain of anti-vanguardism and implicit anti-bolshevism" is utter nonsense. If you mean that the SP is not a democratic centralist organization, then you're correct. But democratic centralism is an organizational structure, not a political ideology. First let's put aside the fact that the very early Bolshevik party was, in most substantive ways, just about as de-centralized as the SP is today (allowing party factions, extensive debate within party publications, and public criticism of party policy). We'll also put aside the fact that the vast majority of Leninist organizations entirely reject Stalinism. If you're going to use that argument, it essentially amounts to: 'The SP has a different internal structure than most Leninist parties. Leninist parties tend to identify with early Bolshevism. Early Bolshevism was the pre-cursor to "Soviet-style Communism." Therefore, the SP is equally opposed to capitalism and Soviet-style communism. We already make the point in the wikipedia article that the SP rejects a "Leninist" organizational model. If you feel that that fact makes it implicit that we equally oppose capitalism and "Soviet-style communism," why does the latter need to be stated in addition to the former?

Finally, your justification that the SP has a strain of implicit anti-Bolshevism makes no sense at all. As a multi-tendency organization, the SP has all sorts of strains. It has members who are very opposed to Bolshevism (however you may define it), but throughout its history, up to the present, it has always had members who identify with Bolshevism. Many of our most well know SP members, in fact, have identified themselves as Bolsheviks: Eugene Debs, Helen Keller, James Cannon, even Max Shachtman! Look at the post above from Chegitz, an SP member who identifies as a Leninist/Trotskyist. Does he in your view not subscribe to the SP's Principles because he doesn't agree with its "implicit anti-Bolshevism"?

-Matt —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.46.30.76 (talk) 02:09, 23 November 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Progressive Democrats

I added progressive Democrats as someone a part of the SP wants to cooperate with, as I think it is important to convey that practically no one in SP uncritically lauds the Democratic Party, and that it's the more progressive wing that some see as tactical allies. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.1.100.214 (talk • contribs) 22:52, 10 January 2008

By changing "progressive Democrats" to "progressive Democrats", you change a general amorphous group into a specific organization. Are PDA the only progressives in the Democratic Party? No. Is PDA the only Democratic group that some in the SP advocate cooperating with? No. This is what your revision implies, and it's simply incorrect. PDA is not synonymous with the "progressive wing" (which, for what it's worth, is what is specified in the original text); it is a particular organization that claims to be part of that wing. -David Schaich Talk/Cont 23:17, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
David's reasoning is correct here; it's as if I changed every wikilink to a U.S. socialist into Socialist Party USA. I'm reverting the edit which conflates an ideological position with a specific organization.T L Miles (talk) 14:27, 11 January 2008 (UTC)