Talk:Social constructionism

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[edit] Article Title Change Proposal

I find it somewhat confusing to have two articles with very similar names addressing very different issues related to Constructivism: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_constructivism_(learning_theory)
which does not deal with Vygotskian issues and
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Social_constructivism_%28learning_theory%29&direction=prev&oldid=193815804
which does deal with Vygotskian issues.
Please could I support the idea that a a disambiguation page be created which will highlight the differences to those people who,like me, are not expert sociologists. Thanks! Ptpare (talk) 14:42, 25 February 2008 (UTC),

I propose that we change the name of this article to "Social Constructionism (Sociology)" or "Social Constructivism (Sociology)". I am beginning a new article titled Social Constructivism (Learning Theory) that discusses a different topic than this article. Currently, when a user searches for "Social Constructivism" they are forwarded to this article. I beleive that this search should now take them to a disambiguation page where they can choose between the the sociology or learning theory social constructivism articles. I will wait to make any changes until there has been enough opportunity for discussion on this. Thanks!Cmsmith81 23:55, 8 July 2007 (UTC)


Hypertexter 03:38, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Hi I'm a newcomer, so excuse my oversights as i learn.

I suggest that we leave the name as "Social Constructionism" since it is not limited to Sociology and could be confusing if there are different versions as per the disciplines (which may be the case) but i don't see much of that yet. thank you. --Hypertexter 03:38, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Latest changes

Hi guys. I am new at this, so I dived in and made quite a few changes (improvements) to the social construction page before I sighted this discussion.

My main motivation for changing it was that neither the social construction page nor the social constructionism page outlined what social contruction really entails, according to berger and Luckmann, nor ties it to the extensions of this literature in the structure and agency debates. So I added it. I addressed this in my doctoral thesis, so I though I was as good a person as any to do it!

I think there are three items under discussion here:

1. social construction as outlined by Berger and Luckmann. i.e. the content of what they actually said in their theory, as opposed to the later work that uses their term. I covered this somewhat in the 'socail construction' page.

2. Social constructionism as a movement in (essentially postmodern) social theory, e.g. as attacked by Hacking 1999. Perhaps some of the material on the social constructionism page on this should be moved to the social construction page, and the social constrionism page be made into a social constructivism page.

3. Social constructivism as developed in psychology, and as exported to social science generally (e.g. strong constructivism, weak constructivism, radical constructivism). This could be covered in the social constructivism page (see (1), above)

Perhaps this whole bunch of content should be reorganised into these three pages on these three topics?

Anyway, in the interim, I have neatened up and strengthened the material. The page on social construction also needed reordering, so I did that. I have also cross-referenced to a greater extent with the pages on institutionalization, socialization, etc.

Unless I hear something in the next couple of weeks from you guys, I might start making the changes, as they seem sensible to me . . .

HTH

LMackinnon 03:22, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

By all means, make the changes. These articles have needed work for a long time. -Seth Mahoney 03:42, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Redirect?

Is this really necessary to have this page, or can't it just link to "social construction"? Also I'd disagree with linking Berger/Luckmann to the Sokal-affaire, because social constructivism isn't the same as postmoderne relativism. -- till we *) 14:19 24 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Done a bit of rewording, now I like this page much better ;-) -- till we *) 22:43, Dec 5, 2003 (UTC)

I think the page should be merged with social construction, putting a redirect from the social construction page and putting all the material together.

I find it useful to keep "social construction" and "social constructionism" separate. Some people may want only basic definitions, while others may be more interested in larger issues.

[edit] Section removed

moved to the bottom

I took this out:

On the other hand, no sane social constructionist would exclude his own method from the universal processes of social construction of reality, so the idea that social constructionism is constructed, too, can also be seen as a truism.

The phrase "social construction of social contructionism" is not meant to be taken literally (that's why it's in quotes).

Why not? If that is the point the Sokal affaire people put forward against social constructionism, it should be taken literally. I'd rather prefer it if the sentence goes back in. -- till we *) 18:40, 28 Apr 2004 (UTC)
But that's not the point they're putting forward. No one is criticizing social constructivism on the grounds that it is socially constructed--that wouldn't be much of a criticism at all now would it? The phrase "social construction of social contructivism" means less than it says, thus the quotes around it. It's a half-pun, if you will, and it makes an excellent point that would be hard to explain in other terms.

[edit] Sokal

I'm going to agree with the above comment that social constructionism is not really the object of focus in the Sokal Affair. While it may be a branch of (better said, a source for) postmodernism, social constructionism is not postmodernism. A clear example of how society is socially constructed is religion - religions, following Durkheim and Freud are clear social creations that have no basis in naturalistic science. You can find other grounds upon which to criticize social constructionism, but tying it into the Sokal Affair isn't appropriate. I'm taking out the criticism.

[edit] Merge

I'd like to propose that Social construction be merged into this article. Social construction seems to be more about social constructionism than social constructions per se. Also, social constructionism would greatly benefit from some of the material at social construction. Socially constructed reality, radical constructivism, and major consensus narrative are both stubs that would probably better serve as redirects to this page after any useful content is moved here. -Seth Mahoney 07:44, 25 September 2005 (UTC)

Good idea! I didn't know all these articles existed. -- till we ☼☽ | Talk 11:39, 25 September 2005 (UTC)
Merging all of these is an excellent idea. But the effort should keep in mind that a number of significantly different lines of thought relate to social constructionism. That doesn't mean they shouldn't be covered in the same article, but different sections for approaches of Berger&Luckman, Durkheim, Foucault, Latour, etc. should be included (not necessarily named for those authors, maybe better with some general names for the approach). Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters 02:03, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

Okay, I went ahead and did (most of) the merging. I'm going to move the contents of major consensus narrative here, because the article was pretty much content-free, except for some name-dropping. If anyone has the time and background to flesh the contents out more, please add it to social constructionism. Aside from that, there is still some copyediting and patching to be done with respect to the narrative flow (it gets a little broken and downright contradictory at places), but all that should be easier (I think) with the content all in one place. Anyway, here's the contents of major consensus narrative:

The expression major consensus narrative was coined by Bruce Sterling in his book Zeitgeist as an explanatory synonym for truth.
Some sociological background to this assumption can be found in the theory of social construction of reality.

-Seth Mahoney 18:32, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Dissent regarding social construction

I copied this from Talk:Social construction to make sure everybody was aware that there are arguments against:

Merging is a bad idea. It's like merging Empire into Imperialism, or Race into Racism, or Gene into Genetics. The need for an explanation of the concept of a social construct transcends any -ism, no matter what the history of the idea may have been. Peak 19:32, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
I actually agree with you, in principle. However, as discussed above, the content of social construction is currently about social constructionism and not social constructions or social constructs. If you are willing to develop content that is specifically about social constructs and not just a rehash of social constructionism, then by all means do it! Of all the articles merged into social constructionism today, this one I am the least sure should remain just a redirect. However, its status as a full article depends on good and useful content, which it currently does not have.
As far as there being insufficient discussion, the consensus has largely been in favor of a merge (there is more discussion on Talk:Social constructionism). I'd say at this point the most fruitful avenue of discussion is in terms of what the content of each article should be. I've already thrown out ideas of what this one should not be (which happens to be exactly what it is now). You seem to agree, at least to a point. Since you want to retain social construction as an article, what would you like to see here? -Seth Mahoney 19:56, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
That sounds good. Merge the current content with social constructionism, but don't redirect. Then rewrite the social construction article to be specifically about social constructions. Neurodivergent 02:18, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
I agree with this. Take a look at Ian Hacking's Social Construction of What? - the book is about all of the stuff out there that's been said to be socially constructed (gender, technology, science, identity, etc.). These are, presumably, social constructs.
Me three. A concept is not the philosophy that generated it.

It would appear that each of those entities deserve a separate article. However one of the things that must be done is to make the distinction clear: the lead of each of those articles shoud state something like (This should not be confused with x, which means y). Or perhaps this can be done in a disambig for (This article is about x. For article about y, see...).--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 22:47, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] They are two totally different terms

One is a school of thought, the other is a way of understanding things like race. My vote is to keep them seperate. Noah 18:16, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

That doesn't change the fact that, having removed all the content that is actuall about social constructionism, social construction is a stub that's not particularly useful. I'm not at all sure how it can be made into a useful article separate from social constructionism, except maybe by giving examples of the ways in which race, sexuality, gender, etc. are explained (or explained away) as social constructions. If you want them to remain separate articles, it would make sense to do some work on social construction to remedy that problem, rather than just cast your vote here. But, it seems that's a problem Wikipedia is especially prone to these days. -Seth Mahoney 21:28, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
Note: And the two are not "totally different" terms - they are aggressively linked terms. You can't talk about social constructions without social constructionism, and social constructionism is empty without social constructions. -Seth Mahoney 21:29, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Rational vs. human nature

An editor added this sentence:

Our view of reality may not be entirely, or even mainly, "Rational" but may rather be a Human / Social Construction of Reality that is itself based on the promptings and cues provided by innate Human Nature.

Other than the Gratuitous Studly Caps, I pretty much agree with it personally. But as added, it seems like general argumentation pro-SC, rather than describing any particular thinker or position. If this is meant to describe someone specifically, please clarify that before re-adding it. Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters 18:02, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Social constructionism vs. social constructivism

Comments, please, on the following... This page ought to mention that these two terms are often used interchangeably. But they can be (and are) distinguished in usage, too, and some people think the distinction is important. My sense of the difference between these two terms is this:

To illustrate the nuances here, I would take issue with the following statement from this article:

"Berger and Luckman's work has been influential in the sociology of knowledge, including the sociology of science, where Karin Knorr-Cetina, Bruno Latour, Barry Barnes, Steve Woolgar and others use the ideas of social constructionism to relate supposedly objective facts to processes of social construction...." This just isn't true. Knorr-Cetina, Latour, and Barnes don't cite Berger and Luckmann in their seminal works (I don't have Woolgar handy, so I'm not sure whether he cites B & L). Perhaps they should have cited B & L, but they didn't. Bryan 14:11, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

Though Knorr-Cetina et al do not quote B & L it is likely that they are familiar with their work since they have sociological backgrounds. Further to this they might not have felt the need to since Berger and Luckman's ideas could be seen as another flowering of phenomenology with a sociological bent just like George Herbert Mead, Alfred Schutz and Harold Garfinkel [I think it was Berger who edited a collection from the '70s(?) called Phenomenology an Sociology]. In this vein sociology of science seems to have a sociological phenomenolgy as an axiom, considering David Bloor's Strong programme, which I'm sure at least one of Knorr-Cetina et al will have cited. Robat 81.102.15.200 13:59, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Your thoughts on the iv/ion distintion seem correct to me. Feel free to clarify this in the article. Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters 17:55, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

Tough call, subtle distinction if there's any at all other than the name; and depends on who you ask. The eight volume Encyclopedia of Philosophy has an article on Constructivism consistent with the use of the term "constructivist epistemology", for very good reasons that are beyond the scope of this brief reply. Social constructivism is a term built on that important philosophical slant wherein knowledge is viewed as a social construction, including the construction and use of language by which knowledge is classified and shared. Unfortunately the constructivist epistemology article is currently a mess (no offense intended to participating editors). Constructionism deals with the same basic issues, more a theory of knowledge than a theory of social action per se. While I'm not very familiar with the work of Berger and Luckman, the basic description given in the introduction on social constructionism sounds fairly correct just off the top of my head. At the moment I have no knowledge of who coined the term "constructionism"... Kenosis 00:00, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
Here's a quick followup. That encyclopedia, a professional resource incidentally, has an article in the 1996 Supplement entitled "Constructivism, Conventionalism" which are said to be overlapping positions. I see no reference to the term "constructionism", but am beginning to wonder if citations should be requested for the use of the term "social constructionism". There is not a whole article on constructivist epistemology in the original 8-volume set. One thing I can say pretty much confidently without doing a lot of research right now is that the introduction to the social constructionism article has a more apt description of the basic position than does the constructivist epistemology article at present. Will attempt to follow up when I have an opportunity. Thanks for bringing the issue up. ... Kenosis 00:15, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

This page might be helpful for you guys: http://users.california.com/~rathbone/gergen3.htm (although I wish I could read the actual paper the article is reviewing) 01:20, 14 June 2006 BrownApple

Interesting slant on a page of questionable noteworthiness, written about Kenneth Gergen by a psychologist name Lois Shawver. Gergen, a "postmodern" psychologist with a fairly obvious agenda who happens to be David Gergen's brother, appears to be making a point about constructivist epistemology, or contructivism, being used as a principle of epistemology without reference to other theories of truth such as correspondence theory, pragmatic theory or other theory of justification. He appears to be assuming constructivists necessarily maintain that knowledge is socially constructed in vacuum, so to speak (possibly some do, but I don't know for sure at the moment). Gergen appears to be arguing against those who take the constructivist position to the extreme. He also appears to be arguing for the separation of these two terms by "showing" that constructionism is a non-solipsist position. I think I'd want further evidence for his claim, though it's hard to tell just based upon what Shawer writes here. ... Kenosis 02:26, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
Yeah... based on my experience with Gergen's other writing, I'm willing to bet his paper is a lot clearer than Shawer's summary. (And, although you could probably argue that he (along with everyone else on the planet) has an agenda of some sort, his couldn't be farther from David Gergen's.) Anyhow, I thought this article was quite helpful: http://www.acjournal.org/holdings/vol5/iss3/special/raskin.htm . I'd say "constructivism" = "epistemological constructivism," described here:
Epistemological constructivists are not purely idealists because they believe in the existence of an external reality that is independent of the observer. However, they also believe that it is not possible for observers to know that independent reality except through their constructions of it. Therefore, knowledge is a compilation of human‑made constructions. Such constructions are heuristic fictions useful for understanding the world. In this regard, epistemological constructivism sees knowledge schemes as being classifiable as more or less viable rather than more or less accurate. People cannot know for certain if their constructions correspond to an independent reality, but they can know if their constructions work well for them. In this regard, people are cognitively closed systems: “In fact, it is really with the idea of a closure of cognitive systems that the subject/object dichotomy is substantially overcome and traditional realistic perspectives are actually abandoned” (Chiari & Nuzzo, 1996b, p. 171). Von Glaserfeld’s radical constructivism seems to most clearly exemplify epistemological constructivism, although Kelly’s personal construct psychology also fits nicely.
and "constructionism" = "hermeneutic constructivism" described here:
Hermeneutic constructivists do not believe in the existence of an observer-independent reality. They consider knowledge a product of the linguistic activity of a community of observers. Thus, there can be as many knowledge systems as there are groups discursively negotiating them. In hermeneutic approaches to constructivism, the roles of language, discourse, and communication become central in understanding how knowledge systems are developed and maintained. There are many forms of hermeneutic constructivism, but they all share certain fundamental premises.
Although their historical backgrounds are different, all these approaches share a view of knowledge (and truth) as interpretation, an interpretation historically founded rather than timeless, contextually verifiable rather than universally valid, and linguistically generated and socially negotiated rather than cognitively and individually produced. (Chiari & Nuzzo, 1996b, p. 174)
Gergen’s social constructionism can be considered an example of hermeneutic constructivism and Maturana’s radical constructivism appears to contain hermeneutic elements. 19:03, 14 June 2006 User:BrownApple
Hi again. BrownApple, I appreciate seeing some well thought analysis of the issue. So "hermeneutic constructivism" does seem to explain what I earlier saw as Gergen's "obvious agenda" (I wasn't intending to imply an ideological or political connection between brothers, incidentally). The distinction of hermeneutic from epistemological would be much more consistent with what appeared to be Gergen's thrust, at least from what I read. And what you've quoted and said about epistemological constructivism points up the distinction as well. So the "agenda" I was reading into Shawver's brief synopsis is apparently not a misinterpretation and criticism of empistemological constructivism, but instead an argument for a distinction between hermeneutic constructivism and constructionism? Interesting. It's a position that certainly is debatable but wholly reasonable in light of the hermeneutic slant you've quoted above.
I imagine that the perspective you've brought in here, and some further research, may begin to put the editors into a position to make some reasonably well considered edits and organizational changes to both articles, and perhaps even add an article to help clarify the distinction, ... Kenosis 03:28, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Don't cite von Glasersfeld for social constructivism: On the distinction between between social constructionism and social constructivism, I would like to add that von Glasersfeld is not the correct person to cite for social constructivism. He coined the term radical constructivism to set it apart from trivial constructivism and to focus on the individual rather than the social. He doesn't deny the importance of the social but rather his focus is on the individual doing the constructing. Slowwriter 18:12, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] References?

What work is "Hacking, 1999"? —Ashley Y 19:32, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

As listed in the reference section: Ian Hacking, The Social Construction of What? (Harvard University Press, 1999; ISBN 0674004124). -Seth Mahoney 01:43, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Strong Social Constructionism

"However, it is not clear that anyone has seriously claimed that everything is a social construct."

It is too clear. This is exactly what strong social constructionism is claiming. And trust me, there are strong social constructionists. (anon)

The recent edits to this section are definitely an improvement... But I'm still not quite happy wit this part: "This is not to say that strong social constructionists (or weak social constructionists, for that matter) necessarily see the world as ontologically unreal, that the raw stuff of reality exists only insofar as some group of people believes that it exists, but that our epistemological access to it to some degree filters and sorts the world into our set of social constructions."
It's certainly right that social constructionism isn't claiming that the world is "ontologically unreal"... but neither is it suggesting that the world is ontologically real, and we just don't have a way of knowing about it (as the article currently suggests). Social constructionism is a way of throwing out exactly these sorts of ontological questions. It's not that the world is real or unreal; social constructionism says that this notion of "real" and "unreal" is just a social construct, just a matter of convention. Do you see how it's missing the point to ask a (strong) social constructionist if the world is really real?
I tried editing the article, but I'm worried I just made it more confusing...
I agree that asking a social constructionist if the world is ontologically real or not is missing the point, but nonetheless, that's the sort of question that immediately comes up when social constructionism is discussed (in fact, I think it has come up on one or more of the social constructionism-related pages more than once). So saying something along those lines is probably worthwhile. There's something else to be addressed, though: I wrote that original bit, I think, and it had the same problems your changes have: It isn't sourced, and therefore isn't really verifiable. So if you have any sources handy, it would be great if you could throw them in. Until then, I'll go through the article and add the necessary citation needed tags. One more thing: Please sign your contributions to talk pages by adding -~~~~ at the end. Thanks. -Smahoney 02:19, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
Yeah, I don't really have any sources (although I stand by the notion that social constructionism is opposed to the ontological questions of modern philosophy). The problem, I guess, is that we're trying to make claims about what *all* social constructionists say and think... which is basically impossible, since it's not even clear who is/isn't a social constructionist, much less exactly what views they hold in common. Anyway, feel free to revert.
Please sign your contributions to talk pages by adding -~~~~ at the end. I see what you mean. Maybe picking a few positions in social constructionism and citing them to specific writers would be a better way to go? (By the way, I'm pretty happy with your change overall - I'd rather see it stay than go, unless someone can work out something better). -Smahoney 19:45, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
The strong social constructionism section is just a totally unexplained quote. Nowhere does the quote mention social constructionism outright, and certainly nowhere does this Wikipedia article explain what strong social constructionism. Obviously, it's a stronger viewpoint than weak social constructionism, but there must be some kind of line drawn, and considering there is also a radical social constructionism section, the dichotomy (is trichotomy a word?) needs to be delineated more clearly than it is at present. Sean Parmelee 06:48, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Comments for Lulu

Hi Lulu.

As I see it, there are two issues on this page,

1. Berger and Luckmann's notion of social construction

e.g. on the current page

<< Socially constructed reality is seen as an ongoing, dynamic process; reality is re-produced by people acting on their interpretations and their knowledge of it. Berger and Luckmann argue that all knowledge, including the most basic, taken-for-granted common sense knowledge of everyday reality, is derived from and maintained by social interactions. When people interact, they do so with the understanding that their respective perceptions of reality are related, and as they act upon this understanding their common knowledge of reality becomes reinforced. Since this common sense knowledge is negotiated by people, human typifications, significations and institutions come to be presented as part of an objective reality. It is in this sense that it can be said that reality is socially constructed. S >>

2. Social constructivism and constructionist approaches in contemporary social sciences

e.g. on the current page

<< Social constructionism is dialectically opposed to essentialism, the belief that there are defining transhistorical essences independent of conscious beings that determine the categorical structure of reality. >>

<< Within social constructionist thought, a social construction, or social construct, is an idea which may appear to be natural and obvious to those who accept it, but in reality is an invention or artifact of a particular culture or society. The implication is that social constructs are in some sense human choices rather than laws resulting from divine will or nature. This is not usually taken to imply a radical anti-determinism, however. >>

<< The focus of social constructionism is to uncover the ways in which individuals and groups participate in the creation of their perceived reality. As an approach, it involves looking at the ways social phenomena are created, institutionalized, and made into tradition by humans. ocial constructionism is dialectically opposed to essentialism, the belief that there are defining transhistorical essences independent of conscious beings that determine the categorical structure of reality. >>

Now, the page is already quite confused and conflating these two seperate issues. The latter is, presumably, what this page should be about (given the title).

The situation is further confused by the fact that there is an account of Berger and Luckmann's social construction on both pages - social contruction, and social constructionism.

Now, my note was attached to your discussion of B&L's account of social construction, tying the two pages together. Moving the note as you did simply put the note in a place where it was not relevant.

I don't disagree with the text you are defending. I think it describes B&L's ideas fine. But so does the text on the social construction page, and my feeling is that the place to talk about B&L's ideas is on the Social construction page or The Social Construction of Reality specifically about the book.

I would appreciate it if we could discuss/talk on this talk page rather than going back and forth changing each other's text for the article. I'm sure we could find a path we both agree on, and work together on this.

LMackinnon 14:44, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Criticisms

I have no idea what to make of this (I'll break it down, but I'm not an expert in Wikiformats, so bear with me):

"Scientists and historians generally do not attempt to refute the idea that most or all of the world is a social construction.

I understand what this means but it sounds empty to me. Why should they waste their time?

"The entire idea is widely dismissed as a disguised version of solipsism.

What idea is widely dismissed? Social constuctionism itself? Or the first statement about scientists and historians not attempting to refute? Or the idea that it <;I>should be refuted?

"Some literary critics do think it is worth refuting this position.

Ok. Who? And what position? That social constructionism is solipsism? Or that scientists don't attempt to refute...?

"A few attempts have been made to refute the idea that everything is socially constructed.

Again, who?

"However, it is not clear that anyone has seriously claimed that everything is a social construct. (Hacking 1999, pp. 24-25).

Ok. So taking the first sentence, and this sentence together, I read it as: "Scientists and historians don't attempt to refute an obviously refutable stance that was never made by anyone anyways." Is this correct?

"Consider The Social Construction of Reality. In the introduction, Berger and Luckmann clarify that they are not investigating "reality" in any deep philosophical sense, only what the common man takes as real on a day-to-day basis."

Without having read the book, I don't know what to say. And, if the wording of the book is like this article, I'm not sure that I'd want to.

Any thoughts for improvements? Thanks!!--63.138.93.195 23:15, 23 April 2006 (UTC) (just created an account, now: User:M_A_S.)

Just deleting that section would be my first suggestion. -Smahoney 23:38, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
Thanks Smahoney. I'm reluctant to do that, because I think that criticisms are needed. Unfortunately my meta-criticism is that it's difficult to refute or criticise a "moving target" like social constructivism. Social constructivism is this, then that, but then there's strong and weak forms that mean different things to different people in different contexts. But that's OR until someone says it better than me. Fashionable Nonsense comes to mind. Don't get me wrong, in my eyes most Wikipedia sociology articles aren't all pomobabble and I think there's value in some post-modern relativist stances. But the arguments get muddled with forks upon forks (Sociology of scientific knowledge, Science and technology studies, Science, technology, and society, Science, engineering, and public policy and abbreviations and the groupthink that comes with that. . .)--M_A_S 01:44, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
I agree that criticism is valid and useful, but this "criticism" doesn't even make sense, which is why I suggest removing it. Replacing it with something else (which, as you mention, shouldn't be original research) is perfectly valid. -Smahoney 02:59, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
Not to mention that some see a distinction between social construcTIONISM and social construcTIVISM--the latter what you said, and the former what this article is supposed to be about. Check out this article for more: http://users.california.com/~rathbone/gergen3.htm .

Hi Lulu- I saw that you removed my criticism as "vacant" (which I don't feel, but that's Ok for now,) and OR (which I wouldn't really argue with too much - that's why I had the templates.) But I've noticed that there was also removed another criticism earlier in reference to Sokal and the science wars removed as well. I don't think Social constructivism is unable to be criticised, even if the criticism is along the lines of "Scientists and historians have better things to do with their time than criticise." Do you have any recommended way to achieve balance? I've stated my case above why a. the first criticisms were muddled and confusing, and b. a criticism section is needed. Thanks! --M a s 12:56, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

There's a real excess of "criticism" sections in academic articles (especially ones about post-whatever subjects [modern/structuralist/colonial/etc]). I've found it especially overused in bios of academics, but this subject area article is similar. It's really a forced idea of NPOV to insert these sorts of "balancing" sections, and not at all encyclopedic in most cases. It's hardly that I claim that whatever subject or thinker cannot be criticized, but that's not realy what readers of a general encyclopedia need. Reading an article like this should tell readers "what is the topic named in the article name?" Getting into the professional arguments in favor or against the positions addressed is really outside scope, almost always. Sure, publish criticisms in New Left Review or Science Studies or the like, but not here... and the fact that someone indeed already published such criticisms is interesting to professional philosohers, but again usually outside scope of WP.
If 500 philosophers a year publish criticisms of some aspect of social contructionism (or whatever topic; but that number is about right), singling out some semi-random critic—or even singling it out on the basis of book sales number—is really undue weight on a rather drastic scale. Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters 03:20, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
Great point.

Thanks Lulu, thanks Seth. Lulu, I definitely agree that forcing NPOV by posting criticisms to achieve balance isn't a valid encyclopedic thing to do. But I also think that, if a concept is pretty controversial, then it is also encyclopedic to mention that. I guess maybe there can be a disagreement about the threshold for what's deemed "controversial." I think it would be a disservice to have an article on intelligent design, and yes even evolution, without mentioning the controversies involved. Sokal mentions Pickering's quark examples... Nonetheless because of my limited knowledge of the structures of criticisms about social constructionism I consider this closed or tabled; anything that I add would be OR unless and until I'm able to reference. Thanks, --M a s 21:39, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Freud is not an example of social constructionism

From the article:

"An illustrative example of social constructionist thought at work is, following the work of Sigmund Freud and Émile Durkheim, religion. According to this line of thought, the basis for religion is rooted in our psyche, in a need to see some purpose in life. A given religion, then, does not show us some hidden aspect of objective reality, but has rather been constructed according to social and historical processes according to human needs. Peter L. Berger wrote an entire book exploring the social construction of religion, The Sacred Canopy."

Any theory that places the "psyche" at the ultimate level of reality (such as Freud's) is decidedly not an example of social constructionism. For a social constructionist, the psyche (Freud's or otherwise) is every bit as socially constructed as religion. Maybe we should just cut this section?

[edit] References question

Does anybody know what the Pinker, Steven 2002 reference is? I guessed that its to The Blank Slate : The Modern Denial of Human Nature, but if someone could confirm that would be great. It appears in the section "Weak social constructionism". Actually, likewise the reference to Stanley Fish, 1996. That one I can't find any promising titles on. Also, Ian Hacking 1997. -Smahoney 02:27, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Consensus reality merge suggestion

Consensus reality has WP:OR issues, despite surviving a VfD. Perhaps the non-cruft could go here. Leibniz 13:23, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

no, it cannot. it is different and does not map into this concept. after a failed vfd, you should not be talking merge unless merge was the consensus. you should be giving the article the proper time to develop into its own. if it does not do that within a year or 18 months, then you can vfd it again or merge it. --Buridan 16:46, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Duh. VFD was in 2005. Leibniz 23:09, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
Keep - article is legitimate and should stay autonomous Headphonos 11:52, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
Oppose merge - Consensus reality describes a particular concept at length whose relations are to concepts and articles much different from this one, primarily philosophical. Skomorokh incite 00:34, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Question on article head

The article current states:

Social constructionism is opposed, more or less, to essentialism, the belief that there are defining transhistorical essences independent of conscious beings that determine the categorical structure of reality.

This statement is surely false (or very reputable thinkers are making beginner's mistakes). Who has ever offered to prove that there are no "defining transhistorical essences"? Proving a negative is just a little difficult, no? And why bother to try to convince others of something that they will think of many reasons to reject when all that it is necessary to do is to say that until these "defining transhistorical essences" reveal themselves to ordinary mortals all that one can do is to accept in our practical lives the conditions that ignorance of these "essences" impose on us.

In all that I have ever seen, the people who do not accept the existance of a god or a revealed first cause and eternal law giver have merely said that what they understand people to be doing is to impose the products of human creativity on the data and hope that their "useful fictions" work out well in the long run, allowing humans to make space ships and other intricate modern contrivances, etc.

So wouldn't it be better to say, "Social constructionism does not accept or make use of..."? P0M 05:53, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

So you think people who make this opposition are making beginner's mistakes. Alas, Wikipedia is not a soapbox. Whether you agree or disagree with them, many people who argue for social construction are indeed consciously arguing against essentialism. This is not an article on what POM thinks, it is an article on how different people use the term, and the quoted statement is surely true. Slrubenstein | Talk 16:48, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Relation to postmodernism

I think that the statement about social constructionism being the source of the postmodern movement is a huge exaggeration.I can't find any reference backing this up and during my studies of sociology and philosophy this hasn't ever come up. I think postmodernism is something quite different and has its roots completely elsewhere.(http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/postmodernism/). Jokinen | Talk 15:14, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Issue.

I have a bit of an issue with this page. It doesn't appear to give any discussion on the political aspect of Social Constructivism (in particular with regard to its use in International Relations Theory). If people are happy for me to add something regarding this then I would be more than willing to do so. Comments please. Stefanjcarney 16:06, 30 November 2007 (UTC)


[edit] NPOV in 2 section

I have flagged the section on strong social constructivism and environmental leftist critique. They appear to only discuss a critical viewpoint. The sole quote in the strong social constructivism section is taken from a book critical of social constructivism rather than a social constructivist source. The environmental section again presents a negative view. Of course, these views are welcome but perhaps should be balanced by other views in both of these areas. Especially the section on strong social constructivism should discuss primary sources. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Asharper (talk • contribs) 07:06, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

  • This doesn't appear to be a neutrality issue, can't a note for expanding it just be left?JJJ999 (talk) 02:49, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Copyvios

I removed a copyvio here; could someone please systematically Google-check this article for other copyvios? -- Lea (talk) 00:35, 25 February 2008 (UTC)