Talk:Social conservatism

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Contents 1 Small Word change 2 Moved to talk 3 NPOV 4 BIASED LANGUAGE 5 Bias 6 Intelligent design project? 7 What does social conservatism mean? 8 Proposing splitting the article 9 Women

[edit] Small Word change

I removed the word traditional from in front of "traditional nuclear family". The idea that the nuclear family is and has always been a "normal" or "traditional" family, and that other arangments are new or deviant is simply revisionist history. It is similar to the false idea that before the 1960s women were always housewives, or that before the sexual revolution only married people had sex, and then only in the missionary position.

The nuclear family is not traditional

(Agree, easily. And the traditional family is not nuclear. Martin | talk • contribs 02:18, 14 February 2007 (UTC))

I propose that this page be replaced with a redirect to the Conservatism page, where social conservatism is well described and related to other types of conservatism.

Database 15:29, May 14, 2004 (UTC)

• I disagree - it should remain here. The article could actually be expanded quite a bit. --Blackcats 21:53, 17 May 2005 (UTC)
• Oppose merging/redirecting because social conservatism pertains to Christian Democracy (which CD template links here), whereas conservatism in general does not relate.    GUÐSÞEGN   – UTEX – 04:58, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
• Oppose, per what Guospegn said. Itake 14:42, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
• Oppose,mildly, because it stikes me that many people are "social conservatives" and "economic liberals". It might make as much sense to merge this with liberal as with conservative. Or, arguendo, with social. Martin | talk • contribs 02:18, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Moved to talk

Its opponents commonly associate it with conservative religious groups, especially those that are fundamentalist, in addition to militarism and nationalism. Unattributed, assumptive, and hot-button - page deserves better. Pollinator 05:12, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] NPOV

So could anyone explain what the NPOV problem seems to be? Itake 20:26, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, an edit conflict arose while posting the following. In my opinion, this article has become biased. The reference to Kinder, Küche, Kirche seems to be a gratuitous attempt to link the philosophy to the Nazis, and the former linkage to oppression and injustice was the view of the editor, and would be disputed by people such as Peter Hitchens himself. I will try to correct some of this. Philip Cross 20:36, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Wow... somebody wrote "genocide against homosexuals"!!! Wikipedia has a long way to go... Will help out on cleaning up the POV here. ER MD 20:17, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Alrighty, read this article and it was so discombobulated (or however you spell that word) that I pared down the POV. Before somebody writes, it should be structed better so that it flows. Also removed lots of soapboxing. Also social conservatism is not necessarily a "cristian democracy" so that box was removed. ER MD 20:58, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] BIASED LANGUAGE

This article contains several usages of biased language and creates a strawman of opponents of social conservatism. The very defenition: "support for traditional morality and social mores" ignores the fact that social conservatism support only what they perceive to be "traditional values." But the most outrageous part of this article is its claims that critics of social conservatism "are usually those who see no particular value in established tradition and consider it to be an impediment to positive change." Most critics of social conservatism assert that the movement has been highly selective in what they consider traditional values, and at times have been accused of creating an idealistic past that never, in fact, existed. Many critics also charge that social conservatism is tinged with racist and sexist overtones, as most social conservative positions (i.e. abortion, affirmative action, feminism) relate in one way or another to the role of women and minorities in society. Those interested in a historically minded critque of the social conservative "traditional values" movement would enjoy the book "The Way We Never Were: American Families and the Nostalgia Trap" by Stephanie Coontz.

Agreeing with most of that. The language does seem biased in favour of conservatism. I think it's worth raising this as a NPOV dispute.--BigglesTh9 08:12, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Bias

Examples of major movements in American History that social conservatives have opposed include freedom of religion, abolition of slavery and Jim Crow laws, same-sex marriage, the suffrage of women and racial minorities, termination of child labor, the choice of abortion, the teaching of evolution in public schools, ending McCarthyism, and equal civil rights for African-Americans.

This might be true but it is certainly not NPOV. It depicts social conservatives as still wishing to keep old practices that nobody would even think about bringing back today. I am myself a social conservative and I don't promote coming back to child labor, slavery or men-only suffrage! Someone should try to find a formultion that would tell the truth about the history of social conservatism without depicting social conservatives as cruel, sexist and racist people.

Don't forget that social conservatives progress too. Canjth 00:51, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

But social conservatives were cruel, sexist, and racist. 134.84.74.101 01:21, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Though they presumably didn't realise it themselves at the time. It's only with the benefit of hindsight that today's social conservatives recognise the unpleasant small-mindedness in those of yesterday. Ironically, of course, tomorrow's social conservatives will be scurrying to distance themselves from those of today; and so on. The problem with following such a backward and reactionary philosophy is that history will very swiftly judge you as a petty and malicious fool. WombatDeath 23:51, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

I think that's very judgemental of both User:134.84.74/101 and WombatDeath to say. I personally am a social conservative and I personally agree with those values noted above - but I do not force my beliefs on others. I don't ask that anyone I meet in public to agree with me. Who are both of you to say that those beliefs are cruel, sexist, prejuidiced, and racist? When the very same could be thought of about liberals ideas and views. Regarding the article, I agree with user:Canjtah - I think the article does have a slightly bias tone to it and needs to be changed to a more neutral position. EmilyGreene1984 1:45, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Intelligent design project?

How is this topic related to Intelligent Design? I don't see it. Martin | talk • contribs 02:23, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] What does social conservatism mean?

Re: the scope of definition:

• What is the range of the term's current usage around the world
• Which branch of knowledge claims to own the term. Is it a political term?
• Does it have direct analogs in other languages?
• Are there ambiguities in the usage of the term; different groups having adopted the term but with a different meaning?
• If it has a generally accepted meaning, are there different terms in other languages that have the same denotation? Is there a "socially conservative" movement in Iraq, and what is it called?
• And is this article attempting to answer these question?

In the USA:

• I think of it as the "old fashioned morality" as regards family, sex, and recognition of the value of human life. Is it?
  Martin | talk • contribs 04:04, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

In Denmark and Sweden the word 'socialkonservative' means pre-welfare Conservatives. They are usually Social Progressive, and would be directly opposed to the Social Conservatives in this article. Carewolf 18:06, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

I would have to disagree. In Denmark social conservative has not been used as a term and within academic circles it has the same meaning as in USA. Not until 7 May 2007, when a new center-right party adopted the term, had it been used in any other way than the english one (as an example: "socialkonservativ" had only been used 26 times between 7 May 1997 and 7 May 2007) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 80.80.28.14 (talk) 11:28, 16 May 2007 (UTC).

Within the conservative party the expression has been used to describe the pro-welfare parts. Both Gitte Seeberg and Per Stig Møller has been described as socialkonservative both by themselves and by the press. In Sweden the same has happened in the party Moderaterne, where the current primeminister has been described as socialkonservative. The Swedish computer game Victoria, made the mistake in the translation and put Social Conservatives to the left of normal Conservatives. Also see the danish and swedish "translations" of this article (the danish is a translation of the swedish). Carewolf 11:39, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Proposing splitting the article

Ok, I give up. Social conservatism is not only defined completely different in the nordic countries but also in Germany, and probably in the rest of continental europe. This form is often attributed to Bismarck who introduced germany's welfare system in the 1890s. It is somewhat related to what both conservatives in the UK and the US tries to suggest through Compassionate conservatism but much older and most importantly; not a Bushism.

I need some more information on what the meaning is in various countries, and then make a split between socially conservative, and social-oriented conservative. This can also replace the last paragraph in Liberal conservatism. Carewolf 13:37, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Women

On the "Political Ideology in the United States" article, it says that most social conservatives are women. Should this fact be included? --212.2.166.207 21:33, 20 September 2007 (UTC)