Talk:Sochi

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[edit] This is a RUSSIAN city

What is this idiotism with georgian names and territories? Remove this. 91.76.3.175 06:02, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

If you want people to listen to you, kindly follow normal practice and post to the bottom Nil Einne 19:57, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Wikification needed?

This looks like it was written by a Tourism Sochi publicist. Can someone with more expertise than myself give an opinion? Escheffel 19:27, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

what particularly don't you like? -- tasc talkdeeds 19:52, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes, it's a georgian name (sochi means fir tree in Georgian) and used to be a part of Georgia before bolshevicks messed up the borders, hope Russia will support terriotorial integrity of Georgia in return. I think it's a fantastic idea to hold olympics in this beautiful caucasian city! Good Luck Russia!

[edit] Picture Caption?

The caption under the photo of the black sea claims it was taken in 1915. Although I am aware colour photography was first used in 1896, it wasn't until the 40s that someone could take a picture like That. Is this just a typo? was it 1951, not 1915? has the photo been colourised? I don't want to change it, but it would be fascinating if colour photo technology was that advanced in 1915. 71.234.219.101 23:33, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Please check the article Sergei Mikhailovich Prokudin-Gorskii --Ghirla -трёп- 06:39, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] peacock words

"most popular" Russian resort towns? "Spectacular views?" I think these are peacock terms and violates NPOV. Dspserpico 19:13, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Border with Abkhazia?

Abkhazia being de jure part of Georgia is not only history but the internationally recognized fact. My wording was neutral enough... I'll restore this phrase and please don't revert it again. --Kober 14:19, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Kober, beauty of encyclopedia is that anyone interested can click on link and read in details what abkhazia and its status are. Your inserts in each and every article claims that abhazia is part of georgia will not help. For now i'm just asking - don't put f.ing politics in this article. -- tasc talkdeeds 14:28, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
If you want to avoid politics you should simply write "Russian border with Georgia" as the world doesn't know the international border between Russia and Abkhazia. Please restore the data or we will have to mark the section as disputed --Kober 14:41, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
Who cares about what knows world. Don't try to divert discussion. It's you who are trying to insert POV statement. -- tasc talkdeeds 15:43, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Second longest?

"At 147 km, Greater Sochi is the second longest city in the world." And the longest would be... ? -- timc | Talk 19:37, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Honolulu. It's a unified city-county, and the county of Honolulu includes the Northwestern Hawaiian Islands, making the unified city-county - and therefore, the city - about a thousand miles long. However, this is kind of obscure trivia. Tokyo would also be a contender, because the island of Iwo Jima is part of Tokyo-to, and is about 800 miles from Tokyo proper. According to City & County of Honolulu, Guinness has recognized Honolulu as the longest. --Golbez 21:18, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
Thanks. I added that tidbit of information to the article.-- timc | Talk 20:53, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
However, since Tokyo-to is so long, and could be considered a city, that would make it 2nd longest - requiring a citation. --Golbez 21:33, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
I just found this discussion now. I deleted the reference to Honolulu and just said that Sochi is "the longest contiguous city" in the world ... my reasoning is that we know that there are at least two of these non-connected wormhole-like cities, and there may be many more. I think that it would be nice to mention the wormhole cities in a trivia section perhaps, and if we do I think we should also mention the case of Omsk, which arguably contains a chunk of rock in the Asteroid Belt within its city limits. Haplolology 13:10, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
This is wrong. Greater Sochi is not a contiguous city. It consists of Adler, Sochi proper, Dagomys etc. As a contiguous city, Kryvyi Rih or perhaps even Volgograd are much longer.Colchicum 11:34, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
Sochi city incldues 4 intraurban regions : Adler region, Lazarevsky region, Khosta region, Central region.

See http://sochi.org.ru/ustav.shtml - statute of Sochi City (article 4. p.2) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.51.11.224 (talk) 06:05, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

I'll defer to you on that since I know little about Russia other than random trivia and climate information. Haplolology Talk/Contributions 14:43, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
Sochi actually comprises its city districts, so administratively Adlersky City District, as well as the rest of the city districts, are parts of Sochi not much different from (historical) "Sochi proper". There just is no reason to consider Adler et al. separately from Sochi, because they are no longer separate. What is separate is the inhabited localities and rural okrugs under jurisdiction of those city districts, but since they are not located in between the city districts borders, the city of Sochi is contiguous.—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 16:01, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Name of the City

About the origin of the name of the city: Georgians named it as Sochi (სოჭი) - in Georgian it means Larch. I added it in the begining of the article. Hope, this is the right place and useful information.--Dmanagadze 01:40, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Definitely not in the lead. Furthermore, the Sochi River was named by Adyghe people, not by Georgians, although I suppose their languages are related. --Ghirla -трёп- 07:02, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
Adyghe and Georgian have not been proven to be related. Colchicum 11:39, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
by Adyghe? hm... where are the sources?

[edit] Шәэча

Please, chekck the "Adyghe" spelling, placed at the top. It is actually Abkhaz, as it uses schwa (Cyrillic). The Adyghe uses only palochka from additional Cyrillic. --Üñţïf̣ļëŗ (see also:ә? Ә!) 16:50, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Temperature Info

I find the claim of 51°C in Russia hard to believe. 112°F is somewhat more believable, but it is also the wrong conversion value for 51°C. Not knowing what the original author meant, I am cutting it down to 40°C, which is still higher than the highest temperature recorded in Sochi, but would probably occur in areas not on the water and closer to the Middle East. Haplolology 14:06, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

huh? you can't just make up another number because you find it more believable. thats crazy. 50C is not impossible even if it is unlikely. maybe it is wrong but you cant just make it up! 112F is 48C which i dont find that unbelievable. the original author said 51C/112F so one of them must be a mistake. but lets say they both are and instead lets make up a compleely different number that we like, say 40. yes. good work every one, this enclyclopedia shpould be done in no time at this rate. how many nobel prizes do you think germans would have won? 90? that doesnt sound right. i'm going to make it 8. 203.206.99.134 03:18, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
I know this is a moot point now, but I want to add two more things: no, 112F is not 48C; it's roughly 44. Also, the reason why I figured 40C would be okay is because other cities nearby have had 40C, even if Sochi itself hasn't, and the article as it was worded than was including an indefinite "inland" area which could certainly include those warmer areas. I could have linked to plenty of weather records for that claim, but at the time I didn't think anyone would be so picky. Anyway, I chose 40 because I am sure that no place north of the Caucasus (at least in Europe) has recorded 44, 48, or 51 degrees Celsius as an official shade temperature, and 40 is a round number, so I didn't feel the need to find the absolute maximum down to the nearest degree. Haplolology Talk/Contributions 13:12, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
Having been born in Primorsko-Akhtarsk, which is further north, on the coast of the Sea of Azov which is connected to the Black Sea in the north where temperatures have reached around 45°C, I don't find the claim particularly hard to believe. Just compare with, for instance, Bucharesti, in which the temperature almost reached 45°C during the heatwave last month. The climate in southern Russia varies greatly with cold winters and warm summers. 84.202.199.101 01:51, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
45C in Bucharest? I don't believe that. That's more than 5C above the previous record. Things like that just dont happen. I'd like to see an official weather report. Haplolology Talk/Contributions 02:44, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
Oh wait, you said "almost" and "around". Every statistician's favorite words. lol Haplolology Talk/Contributions 13:38, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

The temperature and climate values need better and more easily verifiable sources. Throughout the article its described as a "subtropical" summer holiday destination. It may well be a very popular summer destination, but I don't see how it could be a "subtropical" winter olympics. Temperate maybe, but subtropical?!?!

[edit] Names

The name of the city in languages other than Russian should go to history section and not into the intro. It's neither official nor spoken by any significant amount of the city's population afaik.

Do you think we should use transliteration or IPA for the three names in the history section? Alæxis¿question? 19:18, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Both IPA and transliteration would be useful, if you could add them. I am, unfortunately, not that proficient in IPA, and I do not know the transliteration rules for languages other than Russian.—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 19:30, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
I could do that for Abkhaz. Alæxis¿question? 19:34, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
I adde the Adyghe name to other language section of template. If someone will be oppose, let me know before remove. --Üñţïf̣ļëŗ (see also:ә? Ә!) 05:42, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Twin cities

Currently, there are two conflicting sets of information which replace each other from time to time:

VS.

Could anybody investigate the matter? I presume the Sister Cities International lists only U.S. sister cities, no? --Ghirla-трёп- 12:43, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

The list of all of the 'twin towns' for this city is unsourced, that is why I removed it and replaced it with the sourced information that has only Long Beach, which is sourced. If you can find sources for the other cities in some way, then feel free to add the rest. But remember, all information must be verifiable. Dr. Cash 19:34, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
Note that sister cities/twin towns can change. A good source for this information might be the Sochi local government body website. I presume it's in Russian so whoever can understand that should check it out Nil Einne 20:04, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

http://www.sochi-international.ru/pages.php?id=2&lang=eng will do for me Vanky 17:04, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Social and Municipal Problems

This section does not seem to have been written with NPoV. None of the claims are sourced. Mkeranat 14:27, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Edit wars

Seriously people, cut it out. I'm about ready to protect this article. --Fang Aili talk 14:52, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Frankly, as annoying as it may be, I also find this edit war amusing. Sorry to disappoint the vandals but changing what it says on wikipedia is not actually going to change who has jurisdiction over the city. Nil Einne 20:07, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Olympic bid

Shouldn't the "main article" link now go to the olympics 2014 article rather than to the bids article now that sochi have won it? SGGH speak! 21:49, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Longest city

As I've already tried to explain to the user who keeps adding this detail, it doesn't matter what you regard. It is OR to say there is no longer city so it must be the longest city in the world. As with ALL matters on wikipedia, Wikipedia:Verifiability not truth is the core here. It's verifiable that several Wikipedia:reliable sources call it the longest city in Europe. They don't however consider it the longest city in the world as Honolulu is the longest city for them (not that this matters since if they don't call it the longest city in the world, nor can we). So far, there is no reliable source that calls it the longest city in the world and unless one can be found, this needs to be removed Nil Einne 06:59, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

This was already discussed earlier in this talk page. I assumed the consensus reached then would be still a consensus today so I reverted it and deleted the source, my reasoning being that it's pretty much undisputed that the city is 145 km long, and that it's the longest contiguous city in the world. And as I said above, if you count Honolulu, why not also count Tokyo, Omsk, and any other "cities" that have outlying areas listed as their property? But, hey, I dont want to fight, I don't have any personal connection to Sochi or Russia so I'll let someone else revert it again if they want to. Haplolology Talk/Contributions 14:30, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
Actually, I'm removing one of the sources, since I checked it out and found factual errors on it. Personally, I don't think the other source is reliable either ... you probably won't find one that's not in Russian ... but I don't really think a reference is needed for something this trivial anyway. Haplolology Talk/Contributions 14:35, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
It is needed. Read Wikipedia:Verifiability again:
The burden of evidence lies with the editor who adds or restores material. Material that is challenged or likely to be challenged needs a reliable source, which should be cited in the article.
Everything in the Wikipedia should be verifiable. Lots of things in Wikipedia articles are stated without giving a source, true, but at the latest as soon as something stated as a fact is questioned, it must be removed if there is no reliable source. Ideally, nothing should be added without stating the source. Gestumblindi 21:38, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
There's nothing wrong with a Russian (or other foreign language) reliable source (wikipedia policy is quite clear that while English is prefered, foreign language is fine in absense of that). For something like this, even the cities' official website would be fine. I disagree it's a simple matter though. For these sort of supposed world records there tends to be all sorts of technical and definition issues. Also even ignoring definition issues it's a bit too ORry IMHO for us to mention records we (as editors) happen to notice. After all many cities probably have some quirky statistic you can come up with as a world record. If a reliable source doesn't note the record, then nor should we. That's why IMHO we should only include well sourced record claims. Even better if we can attribute these claims to an entity Nil Einne 05:25, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
BTW, I would agree neither source is particularly good and would be fine with removal of both claims from both articles. The Guinness World Record claim for Honolulu appears to be bogus and is not even supported by the source so I removed it but left the record claim. Nil Einne 05:25, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Climate and the Winter Olympics

The article says: Sochi has a humid subtropical climate; with winter temperatures rarely falling much below freezing and with the average winter temperature of +6 °C and repeatedly mentions this warm climate. Given this, I would like to see something in this article regarding how Sochi is proposing to deal with the Winter Olympics. The other cities chosen for Winter Olympics since 1924 all seem to have a markedly colder winter climate (like Chamonix, Innsbruck, Lillehammer, Salt Lake City etc.), thus making them seem far more suited for winter sports than Sochi. Gestumblindi 21:26, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

Sochi itself is on the shore of the Black see and indeed has a subtropical climate. However almost immediately next to it there are Caucasus mountains. Krasnaya Polyana, where the outdoor competitions will take place, is in 39 km from the coast, however it's located at the altitude of 550 m, so the climate is a bit different there. Furthermore it's surrounded by 2000+ m mountains where it's even cooler (remember Putin saying about 5m-snow cover during the presentation :)). I don't know how it should be incorporated in the article, maybe you could think of something... Alæxis¿question? 21:42, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
Indeed, those numbers mean it indeed falls in the Cfa humid subtropical category (January average >0°C, July average >22°C, sufficient summer precipitation) - a rarity for that latitude. It quickly drops off to an "oceanic" climate (as it becomes Cfb since it gets below the 22°C July isotherm before it gets to the 0°C January isotherm - a rare quirk due to elevation) and then a humid continental climate (Dfb) farther up where the events take place. CrazyC83 18:04, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] History

How about before 6th century? Dojarca 20:38, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Putin, Chirac, Schroeder

The 3 are in Sotchi right now for energy talks. Not sure it's worth mentionning, and no time right now. reference: [1] Nicolas1981 19:41, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Recent edits of population figures

The following is a cross-post from User talk:Ezhiki#Sochi

The population of Sochi in its administrative boundaries by Census,2002 is 397.103 inhabitants. See Census results in Russian on Official site http://www.perepis2002.ru/ct/html/TOM_01_04_3.htm. ,—Yufereff; 09:22, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Hi, Yufereff! Thank you for your concern, but note that the 397,103 figure refers not to Sochi proper, but to the city of Sochi with the inhabited localities under the city's administrative jurisdiction. The population of Sochi proper is 328,809, which is what should be reported in the infobox (all other cities' infoboxes are populated that way; Sochi should be no different). I also restored the 1989 Census figure, which is important for evaluating the most recent population trends and is reported for all other Russian cities as well. Please do not remove this number. Finally, the 329,481 figure was removed because the urban population of the Sochi area is, according to the very site you cited, 332,778; I am not sure where you got 329,481 from. I have restored the correct version again. Please let me know if you have any questions. Cheers,—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 17:17, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
OK. But are you sure that 336.514 is only urban population? Where you got this data from? It was total population of the city in 1989 up to 397.103 in 2002. By the way do you ever interest, that Sochi's urban population for 4 years (from 2002 to 2006) up from 328.809 to 329.481 - for the last 20 years it never fall down. This figure was got from postcensus Russian statistics in paper,—Yufereff; 09:56, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
Yes, 336,514 was urban population only. Sochi proper (i.e., the city itself, without any inhabited localities which are under its jurisdiction but are not a part of the city itself) comprised four city districts in 1989: Adlersky, Khostinsky, Lazarevsky, and Tsentralny. If you add up the populations of each of those city districts as reported by the 1989 Census, you'll get 336,514—same number reported for the city as a whole. The breakdown is available here (copy of the official results of the 1989 Census). As such, the 336,514 figure of the 1989 Census directly corresponds to the 328,809 figure of the 2002 Census, which includes population of the same four city districts. The 332,728 figure of 2002 refers to the population of Sochi proper plus the population of urban localities under jurisdiction of the city (which is the urban-type settlement of Krasnaya Polyana (332,728=328,809+3,969), and the 397,103 figure refers to the population of Sochi proper plus the population of all localities (i.e., urban and rural) under jurisdiction of Sochi (397,103=328,809+3,969+64,325). So, the bottom line is that while the population of Sochi and the inhabited localities under its jurisdiction did indeed go up between the Censuses, the population of Sochi proper went down from 336,514 to 332,728. Since the Sochi article is about the city proper, and not about every inhabited locality in its vicinity, we report only the population numbers for the city proper. Best,—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 16:20, 24 November 2007 (UTC)