Talk:Smile (Brian Wilson album)

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Former featured article Smile (Brian Wilson album) is a former featured article. Please see the links under Article milestones below for its original nomination page (for older articles, check the nomination archive) and why it was removed.
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Contents

[edit] U.S. Tour

i'm pretty sure theres talk about bringing the live smile to the US in the fall. ill go check my sources and try to correct that. --tom 01:13, 3 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Yes, a U.S. Tour is indeed planned for the new "SMiLE", and I've updated the article to reflect this.

Hiphats

[edit] Recent trims

In addition to splitting the too-long "collapse" section, I removed several paragraphs that belong better in articles on the group, Pet Sounds, or Wilson. The intent is to keep the article focused on its subject. Jgm 22:15, 13 Sep 2004 (UTC)

i thought george fell into his french horn was part of the Pet Sounds sessions? --tom 22:42, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I removed the bit about the "Laughing Gravy" Vegetables recording, as it was pretty inaccurate. It's nowhere near as mysterious as reported. Jan (but not Dean) and some backup musicians recorded a version of Vegetables and released it as a single under the name "The Laughing Gravy". Brian Wilson produced it. It's available on a couple compilations of Wilson's non-Beach Boys productions. Paul McCartney wasn't on it. Not a big deal--too trivial, IMO, to keep on the page. Chowbok 21:32, 1 Oct 2004 (UTC)

'George fell' is from the Surf's Up sessions, the infamous title was given by a bootlegger, it's not an actual smile track. It was just Brian experimenting. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.2.9.145 (talk) 20:24, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Lead Change

I changed the lead to reflect the release of the new version of the album. Since most of the article is (rightly) about the original version of the album, I moved the album box for the new version to that section. This is admittedly kind of ugly -- I'd love to see an image of the original album cover up top. Alternatively, I suppose we could split the article into two different ones, one for the original album and one for the new, but I think the current article tells the whole story nicely. Jgm 02:00, 1 Oct 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Successful FAC

Like Sesame Street, I am relisting this. Only one person supported it, no one objected, so I don't know if that means it made it or not. Note that this is an article listed at Wikipedia:WikiProject Albums/Featured albums proposal. Tuf-Kat 03:45, Oct 19, 2004 (UTC)

  • Support. Zerbey 04:10, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)
  • Support with a slightly expanded lead section - Taxman 15:22, Oct 19, 2004 (UTC)
    • Lead slightly expanded Tuf-Kat 21:51, Oct 19, 2004 (UTC)
  • I listed it the prior time, and support it now. Jgm 11:33, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)
  • Support. --Golbez 06:52, Oct 21, 2004 (UTC)
  • Support: I do hope, though, that we alternate pop culture with stodgy culture somewhat. Good article, but I understood that lots of folks were saying that the 2004 release wasn't the "real" Smile. Could have just be fan grumbling, though. Geogre 20:44, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)
  • Support. I think I skipped over this last time, assuming it referred literallly to the act of smiling. ;-) func(talk) 21:26, 23 Oct 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Recent Trims 2

Since the article was awarded featured status in October 2004, lots and lots of new material was added but seemingly with little regard for structure or consistency. I decided not to add a cleanup tag at this time (as has been done on the Beach Boys article which has some of the same issues), but I have started an effort to re-focus and tighten the article; I think I'm currently about half completed. In particular, I've removed stuff that isn't specifically focused on the album itself (ie. digressions to prior albums, other bands, general name-dropping). changed usage of first names to last names per Wikipedia style guide, and standardized on the Smile (rather than SMiLE) usage, as set in the lede. Boquets or brickbats here, please, and any help appreciated. Jgm 03:32, 13 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I'm new to this process so I'll use this space to list a couple tiny changes/corrections which are already made. This is not to step on toes but in case anyone wanted sources for those changes. Julius Wechter was a percussionist/marimba player; see the Pet Sounds Sessions box set and, of course, any LP by the Baja Marimba Band. I added a cross reference between the chords of "Cool Cool Water" and those in "Love to Say Da Da" (they're the same); ditto the repeating bass pattern in "Can't Wait too Long" and the one in the original "Wind Chimes", which is especially evident in the "big band" finale, though the chords in the two songs are a bit different. Otherwise a fine article. If these notes should go in a different space please move them there and accept my apologies. DrTim 15:30, 4 Feb 2005

[edit] References

The Further reading section seems to say both of those works were used as references in writing this article. Can someone confirm that and if so, format them properly as at Wikipedia:Cite sources, or let me know and I will? It should probably also be called references if they were in fact used as references in order to avoid ambiguity. Thank you - Taxman 17:23, Apr 22, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Unweildy length

I love SMiLE as much as the next guy (seen it live twice and even met Brian Wilson) but this is one LONG article that seriously needs a trim. Just passing on my view.... PetSounds 01:20, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Change to album infobox

As this article is currently a featured article, I have changed the album infobox to the standards at WP:ALBUM, the associated WikiProject, per Wikipedia:What_is_a_featured_article. If there are questions as to why Album inofobox 2 is not a WP:ALBUM recommendation, please see Template talk:Album infobox 2. Those interested in Album articles reaching Featured Article status might want to look at the discussion Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Beatles for Sale/archive1. Thanks. Jkelly 02:12, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Page move concern

User:Jiy just moved this from Smile (album) to Smile (Brian Wilson album). Is there another album named Smile that we need to disambiguate? Jkelly 18:02, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Smile (the pillows album), Smile (Laura Nyro album), Smile (L'Arc~en~Ciel album). All Music lists a lot more that could potentially be added to WP.—jiy (talk) 18:28, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Is this a Beach Boys album or Brian Wilson album?

You guys are now officially labeling SMiLE a Brian Wilson album. I think it deserves to be listed as a Beach Boys album since it was conceived as a Beach Boys album in the first place. SMiLE is more of a Beach Boys album than a Wilson album because of its long and complicated history.

I have made an attempt to relist this as a Beach Boys album but with no avail. I vote this be listed as a Beach Boys album. How about you? Hiphats 20:59, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

No no no. The Beach Boys outright dismissed this as not being an album for them. This is one of the accepted reasons for the original collapse of the 1967 Smile album. After their return from touring, the Beach Boys found Brian working on this album and on the whole (Mike Love especially) couldn't comprehend this music. The music especially, but other aspects of the music they thought just didn't seem appropriate for the Beach Boys' style. You can find this information anywhere but the simplest resource at the moment is the new Smile documentary on the DVD. It's clear that this is a Brian Wilson record that wasn't accepted by the Beach Boys. You can call "Smiley Smile" a Beach Boys album, however.
That argument sounds good up until it's pointed out that the Beach Boys lent their voices to the original Smile recordings.--piper108 03:56, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
Pointing that out doesn't change the argument. Voice contributions don't detract from a solo project; session musicians do not turn a solo album into a group one. The Beach Boys had little influence over Smile, and thus Brian Wilson is able to legally call the new Smile his own project. There is no issue remaining on this anyway, as there are now two separate Smile wiki pages - one for the original Beach Boys album, and another for the Brian Wilson 2004 version. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.152.206.108 (talk) 19:27, 25 February 2007 (UTC).
This is most definitely a Brian Wilson solo album. The Beach Boys album Smile was recorded in 1966-67 and was never released. The Brian Wilson album Smile was recorded in spring 2004 and released later that year.
Now, you could always create a redirect from Smile (Beach Boys album) to Smile (Brian Wilson album)...but that's something else entirely. --Lukobe 07:07, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
I agree with Lukobe. --Nicholas 15:02, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
IMHO, the most logical answer is that there should be two pages, one detailing the story of The Beach Boy's Smile and another focusing on Brian Wilson's Smile. At least that's what I was expecting to see on this page. --Mdhowe 08:10, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Letter to Jimmy Wales from Jules Siegel

All references to my article "Goodbye Surfing, Hello God!" have been removed from the Brian Wilson and Smile entries. No references to any outside works appear in either piece.

I think that you are treading on very thin ice here, Jim. It's generally agreed that my story about the making of Smile was the single most important source of information on the album and in creating the legend of its greatness when only a few people had heard the cuts.

The information on your pages is based on the work of several other writers, whose books are nowhere mentioned, as far as I can tell. It is a 100% derivative work. As there are no direct quotes, no one who actually did the original research and wrote the original sources can take legal action, but I find the whole thing rotten.

While it is true that I now charge a paltry $3 to download the Brian Wilson Story, I don't see why the reference to it should be excluded. I was paid only $500 for this article when it first appeared. It kept the story of Smile alive for many years and inspired many, many other writers and thousands of fans to dig out the tracks and the anecdotes that have made the Wikipedia article about Smile possible.

I am attaching a copy. I hope that when you read it, you will understand my feelings about this. At that time I wrote it, no one took the Beach Boys seriously. I defy you to find a single serious reference to them earlier than October 1967 when "Goodbye Surfing, Hello God!" was published.

Summing up: the Wikipedia articles on Brian Wilson, the Beach Boys and Smile are rip-offs. They compile the findings of authors and scholars without referencing their works. My name is mentioned with a link to my bio, but there's not a single word about "Goodbye Surfing, Hello God!" --Jules Siegel 14:08, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

I was a bit trigger happy. My story is mentioned in further reading. I still stand on my other points. When you use other people's work, you should provide a link to the original reference. It gives credit where credit is due, and it also allows other researchers to check the material and see if your use is fair and accurate. You are creating an encyclopedia article, not just putting a web page together. --201.154.68.114 16:27, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

My opinion is that your work has been essential in helping to bring the completion of Brian Wilson's Smile into fruition. You should be proud of this fact but nobody will ever know the impact you had as much as you do yourself. Please don't seek to be recognised though, it's better you leave it a selfless act, don't you agree? In the end, you should just be pleased the completion of Smile happened. Like we all are. Smile was finished! Brian is a changed man! Peace. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.153.197.233 (talk) 01:54, 22 February 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Dylan's Blonde on Blonde

The article says, "...it might have stood alongside Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band and Dylan's Blonde on Blonde as a landmark album...," but I thought that the most influential Bob Dylan album is Highway 61 Revisited. Highway 61 Revisited has "Like a Rolling Stone" on it, which is the first Dylan single that he did electric. I am suggesting we change Blonde on Blonde to Highway 61 Revisited.--Andland 07:11, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

But when did Blonde on Blonde come out? (1966) So it's a more fair comparision, than 'Highway 61 Revisted' —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.2.9.145 (talk) 20:27, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Smile album re-recording vocals- how much?

It doesn't say for sure in the article, and I'm not necessarily saying it should say in the article, but does anyone know how much re-recording of the lead and background vocals were done for the songs on Brian Wilson Presents SMiLE album? I'm looking for this info and not finding it. Did he re-record all the vocals or did he use some of the originals recorded by the Beach Boys in the 60s? Specifically on the songs "Good Vibrations" or "Heroes and Villians". Any help would be appreciated. Thanks. Aabbbiee 18:53, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

The Brian Wilson Smile album was a completely new recording. There was nothing at all included from the original Beach Boys sessions, vocals or music. —Chowbok ☠ 19:52, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Overhaul....

This article has somehow changed beyond recognition of what it was just months ago. It should NOT AT ALL have an infobox with the unreleased Beach Boys cover as the first image to see (let alone be slotted into the official BB discography timeline) when it was NEVER RELEASED at that time (and still hasn't been). Yes, acknowledge its roots as a BB recording, but this officially came out as a BRIAN WILSON album, and the article should reflect that fact more predominantly - as it USED TO (just for starters, the article IS called "Smile (Brian Wilson album)". Hence the needed overhaul. BGC 14:46, 2 January 2007 (UTC)


I know it was discussed above -- although to no conclusion -- but I really think there needs to be two pages for this, one for the Brian Wilson album and another for the aborted Beach Boys album. Of course the two are greatly connected, but the page supposedly about the Brian Wilson album doesn't talk about that album specifically until 2/3 of the way down the page. This would also address the length of the article: if people just wanted general info on the Wilson album, then they could get it. If they wanted more, they could get the whole Smile story on the Beach Boys album page. It's definitely something worth discussing. piper108 01:03, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Once and for all...

Is this a Beach Boys album, or a Brian Wilson album? We've been debating this for a couple of years, but through my revisions I have inched this towards being a Beach Boys project since this began as a Beach Boys project. Favoring Brian Wilson would be like reviewing a Simon and Garfunkel album as a Paul Simon solo album. It is very much about the Beach Boys, so I make my vote for this article to be credited as "Smile (Beach Boys project)". The Beach Boys started all this, and it has its significant place in their history. Please, let the record stand as such. Hiphats 00:15, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

No no no. The Beach Boys outright dismissed this as not being an album for them. This is one of the accepted reasons for the original collapse of the 1967 Smile album. After their return from touring, the Beach Boys found Brian working on this album and on the whole (Mike Love especially) couldn't comprehend this music. The music especially, but other aspects of the music (the lyrics, etc) they thought just didn't seem appropriate for the Beach Boys' style. You can find this information anywhere but the simplest resource at the moment is the new Smile documentary on the DVD. It's clear that this is a Brian Wilson record that wasn't accepted by the Beach Boys. You can call "Smiley Smile" a Beach Boys album, however. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.153.197.233 (talk) 01:57, 22 February 2007 (UTC).


The 2004 SMiLE release has nothing whatever to do with any of the other Beach Boys. It was all newly recorded by Brian, Darian, and many other musicians. The 1966 and 1967 recordings were never assembled into an album called Smile. I think there should be one page that tracks the entire history of the album. This would include details about the origin of the album beginning in 1966, but the focus should be on the ultimate 2004 release. As for the length, I think it's okay for this article to be longer than many other articles about music albums given SMiLE's extraordinarily complex history. It doesn't make sense to me to make two separate articles since the original recordings were never released as a single album. This should be one page that makes reference to the original recordings. It should be SMiLE(Brian Wilson album). I guess you could make an article called SMiLE(Beach Boys project), but I just think that's pretty useless since the original project was shelved. If it hadn't been finished in 2004 it would make sense, but now that it is done it makes more sense to include the original project in the article for the ultimate release. I don't think the Simon and Garfunkel analogy works because Art Garfunkel actually did have something to do with the releases they made. He sang on them (quite well in fact). And anyway, they released the albums as Simon and Garfunkel albums, so the recordings should be named as such regardless of who actually participated in the creation of the records. This article is about the 2004 release which, again, has nothing to do with the other Beach Boys except historically, which is something one should document in the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.15.127.254 (talk) 09:30, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Article finally split

OK, everyone, to satisfy all, this article has finally been split into two separate articles, since obviously we're talking about two separate releases, one by the Beach Boys, the other by Brian Wilson. I think that with this split, all the arguments on whose SMiLE it really is will finally come to an end. Hiphats 22:28, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

That looks good to me. I think this makes much more sense. --piper108 22:29, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] New studio version based on old version?

This is really interesting: "For the new version, Wilson, Wondermints leader Darian Sahanaja, woodwind player/string arranger Paul Mertens, and lyricist Van Dyke Parks based their arrangements on the original, unreleased Beach Boys tapes to give Smile a coherent and fresh, updated sound."

Is there any more information on this precise detail? I'd like to know more about precisely how the new studio recording of Smile was based on the original 60s version (in a way that I suppose differed from the live version?) - I've not heard about this anywhere else other than this wiki page.

[edit] Blood, Sweat, and Tears homage?

Is it just wishful thinking on my part, or does the song "Child is Father of the Man" contain a short violin motif near the end that is reminiscent of the theme to the album The Child Is Father To The Man by Blood, Sweat and Tears? in the latter album, the motif is found in the overture and repeated at several points throughout the album? Then again, Wilson may have simply been referencing the same Wordsworth poem as Al Kooper, and any connection between the two is mere fantasy on my part. Any thoughts? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Davin Flite (talk • contribs) 11:46, 30 March 2007 (UTC).

Wilson's recording of the track precedes BS&T's debut by over a year. Anazgnos 18:49, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

And it was Parks who wrote the lyrics anyway Miscreant 20:53, 13 June 2007 (UTC)