Talk:Small Worlds (Torchwood)

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Contents 1 Mara 2 Lahore 3 Estelle 4 Trivia 5 Spelling 6 Picture 7 Troughton? 8 Lara Phillipart 9 alternate photo 10 Roundstone Woods 11 Music 12 Sapphire & Steel References

[edit] Mara

• Jack said something about something being "part Mara" - or at least that's what I heard. Was that a fleating Kinda/Snakedance reference?

I don't think so I think it is more a reference to Mara (folklore) the origin of the word nightmare as Jack stated himself CartmanUK26 12:41, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Looking that the above article I think you're right CartmanUK26. However I wouldn't be surprised if the Doctor Who Mara was based on the Scandinavian Mara too. --GracieLizzie 12:56, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Well, "Kinda/Snakedance" writer Christopher Bailey was a Buddhist, quite eager to see his faith onscreen in some way. Thus, the DW Mara actually came more from the Buddhist Mara—a, for lack of a better word, demon who tested Gotama on the road to Buddhahood by getting into his head at a moment of great weakness. In some East Asian languages, mara means temptation, and has nothing whatever to do with nightmares. Really, the DW Mara has little in common with the Scandinavian Mara, on which this Torchwood episode is clearly based. I think this article should have a section discussing all this Mara business, because it's noteworthy that a) the reference comes from other established folklore and b) it's not the DW Mara, which some readers might believe, due to Torchwood's association with Doctor Who. CzechOut 19:58, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Article changed to include this information.CzechOut 20:10, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

• Ah, thanks for that info. Wolf of Fenric 19:38, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

While I agree that the reference is most probably to Mara (folklore) rather than Mara (Doctor Who), I don't think that we should state it quite so definitively. It's possible that PJ Hammond may have been making a connection between the Scandinavian Mara and the Doctor Who Mara (which was, as CzechOut says, mainly based on the Buddhist Mara (demon)). It's worth remembering that the Mara in Kinda came to Tegan via a dream. I'm concerned that unless we have a quote from Hammond or one of the Torchwood producers saying that the line was not a reference to Doctor Who, it's original research to claim baldly that it "is not a reference to the chief antagonist of "Snakedance" and "Kinda"". I think I'll try to soften the language slightly — if there is a source that I'm not aware of, revert away. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 00:34, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Seconded. It's certainly not . . . folklorically precise to draw a connection between the Mara from Kinda and the Mara that Jack mentions, but that doesn't mean Hammond wasn't doing so. Dreams and inhumanness and, most importantly, an especially timeless and perennially forgotten evil—plus the fact that Kinda was an especially memorable bit of 80s Doctor Who, particularly likely to be name-checked. Sux to have vague language in the article, but I can't think of an alternative either. Iralith 16:00, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Lahore

It definitely said 1909 on screen. I wrote it down as I saw it. — AnemoneProjectors (talk) 00:33, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

I thought so too... the letters on the site was written in January 1908 though. And it makes reference of the girl being killed by them, confusing. Unless the deaths of the soliders were a whole year later but that doesn't seem to make sense.

Note the above ^ is an unsigned comment by me, which I though I'd signed... well anyway. To add to the barrel of confusion, in DeClassified RTD says he was there in 1907. --GracieLizzie 12:32, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Estelle

I'll admit I became fond of her so I'm biased, but as she is only as notable as say... Carys or Bernie... I am not going to add her to he minor characters list. But I was wondering should I make a redirect? Also if so should it redirect here or to Jack Harkness where I've written about her and as we had with Rhys redirecting to Gwen Cooper before we made the minor characters article? --GracieLizzie 00:44, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

I don't think there's any reason to make a redirect, is it likely anyone will search for her? I didn't even know her last name until I read it! But if you were to make a redirect, it should probably point towards the episode. — AnemoneProjectors (talk) 00:53, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

---

Why did they kill her? PMA 08:49, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Emotional tug for Jack I suppose. But we should really avoid chatting here (yes I know I flouted that a bit on the serial talk page, but I was vexed). --GracieLizzie 11:52, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Trivia

Perhaps we can avoid trivia in this article? there's only one piece at present.. (WP:AVTRIV) Matthew Fenton (talk • contribs) 08:14, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Spelling

Should it be Fairy or Faerie? The Torchwood website is rather inconsistant, using Fairy, Fairie and Faerie interchangably. Fairy is the most common, but Faerie tends to be considered most correct, especially for Celtic areas (such as Wales). Laïka 12:27, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

My understanding is that the beings are fairies (singular "fairy"), while their realm is Faerie or Faërie. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 00:27, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

The ae spelling is used in Estelle's references to them - like how wiccans spell magic "magick". The normal way of spelling it is, is "fairy" still.~Zythe^{Talk to me!} 14:54, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Picture

I know image discussions can get a bit heated, and I hope this one doesn't, but I feel I must give my opinion on the image that has been chosen. I think something other than a "fairy" close-up would have been better because we all ready have one of those at List of Torchwood monsters and aliens, plus I think some other shots would give a better idea of the overall feel of the episode. In my opinion those would have been:

• Gwen tidying up her trashed apartment with the quote about how the fairies frighten her
• Jack cradling the deceased Estelle quoting Gwen saying "That wasn't your Dad was it... it was you" (or whatever the line was exactly)... though that might be a bit spoilery.
• The fairies wind-attack on the two bullies at Jasmine's school or...
• The Torchwood Team examining the Cottingley Fairies photo. --GracieLizzie 15:57, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Picture of Jasmine would work too. PMA 16:30, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm not too sure, because the suggestions are all a bit tame (and the scenes don't lend themselves to that dramatic a capture). I've uploaded a new picture, for what it's worth, and people can compare the versions. --khaosworks (talk • contribs) 22:57, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Having not watched the epsiode yet i much prefered the old image, it really "gave me the dramatic feel" for the episode - The new one doesnt :-( Matthew Fenton (talk • contribs) 22:59, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Ah well, if a consensus emerges, it can be reverted. Let the discussion continue for a bit. --khaosworks (talk • contribs) 23:02, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Personally I don't think the Fairy picture was all that dramatic looking. Menacing yes, but not in my opinion dramatic, it doesn't illustrate much beyond the antagonists of the story. A more dramatic picture would be Jack with dead Estelle, but that would be spoilery, or Gwen in her trashed flat along with the quote about her being afraid of the fairies (I think this would illustrate the "creepy feel" of the episode really well). Or perhaps (new suggestion) the fairy attacking Jack which in my opinion would be mildly spoilery but not as spoilerly as say, Jack and Estelle or the fairies killing Roy (which would be way too spoilery).

The current image, while undramatic I think is better than the fairy close-up as it shows more and it a fairly unspoilerish point of the episode but while it doesn't capture the feel perse of the episode, it captures one it's major themes of "just what are these fairies?" so to speak, and it also takes illustrates the Cottingley Fairies hoax's place in the episode which the crew/cast (can't remember who exactly, Burn Gorman?) said on Declassified was what the whole episode was based on. --GracieLizzie 23:56, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

I'll admit the new one is a bit more boring looking than the old one though. --GracieLizzie 00:06, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Troughton?

Is the director one of Pat's many relatives? PMA 19:51, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Nope. I can't remember exactly where I read it (probably Doctor Who Magazine), but Alice is no relation to Pat. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 21:23, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes, in DWM Davies said he asked her and she said no. Angmering 10:23, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Lara Phillipart

she was in The Idiot's Lantern too

PMA 09:53, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Obviously another example of fairy time-travelling. --khaosworks (talk • contribs) 13:44, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] alternate photo

Well here are the two bullies as suggested:

PMA 20:58, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but this one is right out - two girls in a gale doesn't really illustrate much about the episode. At least the Cottingley fairies one had the advantage of relating to the plot. Does anyone have any other suggestions? What about a longer shot of the fairies, or when Estelle is photographing them in the woods? --khaosworks (talk • contribs) 06:26, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

It was GraceLizzy's idea about the bullies - i'm leaning towards a shot of fairy-Jasmine from the end PMA 06:33, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Hmm. That might be giving away the final twist too early. --khaosworks (talk • contribs) 06:54, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Well it was one of my lesser suggestions, and I also I sort of meant looking down on them from a more distant postion and seeing all the school yard. Khaos' suggestion of a longer shot of the fairies is good one. Maybe them in the trees, or the beginning of their attack on the party, where they jump over/through the fence, just before they kill Roy? --GracieLizzie 13:27, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Here are two more alternatives: a long shot of them in the trees (although they are a bit hard to see) and a shot from the start of the episode, with Estelle spying at their prettier forms in the woods. --khaosworks (talk • contribs) 14:00, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

The new one is blurry and still doesn't really focus in on the central plot element, i.e. the fairies. --khaosworks (talk • contribs) 09:45, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

The "fairy POV" is blurry for whatever reason in the episode and GraceLiz said the new shot is what she meant - "I also I sort of meant looking down on them [the bullies] from a more distant postion and seeing all the school yard". PMA 09:58, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, she also said it was one of the lesser suggestions. That being said, any comments about the two other alternatives I put up? --khaosworks (talk • contribs) 16:29, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Roundstone Woods

Sounds similar to "Ringstone Round", a phrase the late Nigel Kneale used in "The Quatermass Conclusion" in 1979.

[edit] Music

Was it Simple Gifts or Lord of the Dance (hymn) that was playing during the school attack? --Gadget850 ( Ed) 03:52, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Sapphire & Steel References

Can anybody confirm whether the similarities in plot with episodes of S&S were intentional homages or coincidences? Branfish 12:21, 13 March 2007 (UTC)