Talk:Slovenes

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Contents 1 Two factual mistakes in the article 2 Slovenians as a national minority in Croatia 3 Population figures 4 Slovenes in Carinthia (figures) 5 "related groups" info removed from infobox 6 Slovenian People 7 History 8 Requested move 8.1 Survey 8.2 Discussion 9 Improper synthesis: the number of Slovene Australians 10 Request for expansion 11 Great people 12 Carinthian Slovenes 13 Symbols 14 References 15 Third Opinion

[edit] Two factual mistakes in the article

Two comments on this article

1. The fact box states that there are about 2000 Slovenes in Italy, the text states 100.000 Slovenes in Italy. Makedonij (talk) 23:15, 6 June 2008 (UTC)Surely there might be different sources around, but such a big difference has to be wrong.

2. The heading about Slovenes during WWII is currently mostly about a group of Germans, not Slovenes. What is more, the text is word by word the same as in the article on the Gottschee. It is very interesting and should remain in that article, but could be removed from this article.

[edit] Slovenians as a national minority in Croatia

>> The states of Italy, Austria, Hungary and Croatia officially recognize Slovenians as national minorities.

Well, as far as I know, Croatia DOESN'T officially recognize Slovenians as a national minority. Any comments on this ??

regards Wayfarer-Talk

on November 6, 2005 at 0:38 GMT

No. Croatia does not recognize Slovenes as a minority, but then again, neither does Slovenia recognize Croatians. The Slovene constitution only recognizes Italians and Hungarians officially. They are tiny minorities relative to Croats, Bosnians, Serbs and, even, Albanians. Metulj 05:42, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

Slovenians used to be recognized in Croatia as a minority, as they (like Italians and Hungarians in Slovenia) are indigenous to the small areas they live. After independence, Croatia asked for Croatians (NOT indigenous in Slovenia) to be a recognized minority in Slovenia but were rebuffed. In spite, they dropped Slovenians from their list of recognized minorities. BT2 16:33, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

Uhm, I didn't say anything about that (i.e. about Slovenia recognizing Croatians as a minority); that's a completely different subject that should be posted elsewhere.

regards Wayfarer-Talk | , on April 7, 2006

You asked for comments and you got them. Now you know why Slovenians are not officially recognized anymore as a minority in Croatia. BT2 02:44, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

Well, but don't you see that I've originally quoted the text that states that they are recognized as a national minority in Croatia? So what I wanted to say is just that this particular piece of information is not correct. I was not trying to start an argument on why they are not recognized as a minority. Get it now ??

regards Wayfarer-Talk | , on May 9, 2006

[edit] Population figures

Discuss, don't edit war. The page itself is now protected. --ajn (talk) 09:23, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

I believe the figure should be changed to 2.2 - 2.5 million. Since count of "Slovenians", or any other ethnicity is subject to scrutiny. I personally feel that those that define their mother tongue as Slovenian, should be counted as Slovenians. And as far as descendants go, currently there are over 150,000 Americans that stated Slovenian roots. However, that figure is more commonly believed to be around 300,000 (by Slovenian scholars). Similarly, Albanians can claim up to 5 million descendants in Turkey (even though there is very little Albanian affiliation in Turkey). So I kindly ask for you to at least change the overall account to app. 2.5 million. Thank you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.68.218.219 (talk) 19:53, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Number of Slovenes realy should be 2,2 - 2.5. In Slovenia is probably 1,8mil Slovenians (in census officially 1,631,363 but we dont know nationality for 9,5% of population but 153.683 of them were born in Slovenia) In border countries are c. 200.000 Slovenes ( we all know that 25.000 Slovenians in Austria is laughable and total unreal) In USA is probabbly c. 200.000-300.000 Slovenians. And "btw" see it: "The period 1870 to 1924, when most of the Slovene emigrants came to the United States, was the classic period of development of industry and mining in the United States, especially after the end of the Civil War. According to US census data, which are believable, in 1910 the United States was home to around 180,000 Slovene immigrants and their children (judging by mother tongue). According to the Census, by 1920 there were already 228,000 Slovene immigrants and their children living in the United States. On the basis of a 5% sample in 1990, American statisticians estimated that there were 123,000 people of Slovene descent. Based on the earlier counts, this number looks too low. A more reasonable estimate is 500,000 people of Slovene descent in the United States," http://www2.arnes.si/~krsrd1/conference/Speeches/Klemencic_slovene_settlements_in_the_unite.htm Data is incorrect also for some other countries (Belgium, Sweden etc. ). If we just look censuses, 2,2mil is maybe correct number but we should look also estimations. Kgh1111 (talk) 21:58, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

It is perfectly fine as far as you provide reliable and verifiable sources. And don't forget, making calculations from some sources can be regarded as original research so try to avoid it. Regards. --Tone 22:25, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

I'm glad that someone else besides me pointed that out. & thanks for changing the estimate to at least 2.4 million. I would suggest that maybe next to these "official" numbers (for instance next to Austria and the US) estimates could be given. For Austria an est. of 50 - 80,000 is commonly believed, and the U.S 300,000 strong. Although the arnes.si article is also rather interesting (claiming up to 500,000). After all, the "Irish" and "German" American(for example) populations were counted in a similar way. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.78.218.206 (talk) 14:13, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

PS: The following article cites 40,000 Slovenians in Canada (2005 est.) http://www.theslovenian.com/magazine/2005/glasilo07082005.pdf —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.78.218.206 (talk) 10:21, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Also, let me quote the 'Slovenian Americans' article.

"In the 2000 US Census, 176,691 Americans declared that they were of Slovenian origin (of those, 738 have attained the Ph.D.). The number of reported Americans of Slovene descent undoubtedly is an underestimate. Some Slovenians coming from the Austro-Hungarian Empire avoided anti-Slavic prejudice by identifying themselves as Austrians. Many others were recorded as Slav, Slavic, Slavish, or Slavonian (see above). The true number of Americans of Slovenian descent is probably between 200,000 and 300,000." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.78.218.206 (talk) 10:37, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

In addition, "an investigation carried out in 1991 in bilingual parishes, in the process of which there was a question about the colloquial language used by members of the parish. The results of this investigation (50,000 members of national minority groups) differed significantly from those of the census that took place in the same year (about 14,000)." The above refers to Slovenes in Carinthia.

Regarding US figures

Regarding the number of Slovenes in the US, I've left a comment at Talk:Slovenian_American#Some_feedback_and_criticism, which may be of interest here. If it is not of interest, then please ignore this note. I would not refer to the article Slovenian Americans for reliable information of any kind, as someone has done above (indeed, no one should even read that article in its present form, IMHO). A few additional notes that may be of interest to editors of the main article here:

I highly recommend the Trunk writeup that I cite. It is excellent and unbiased background information, and a primary source, though it doesn't specifically address the issue of numbers. The only other good paper I've seen on the topic is by Klemenčič, but his discussion is sometimes weak and off-target, and his emphasis on a few areas with high concentrations of Slovenes is not necessarily representative.

From my experience (admittedly OR), US Census figures from 1900, 1910, and 1920 are highly reliable. They contain entries for both "country of origin" and "language". There is no "hidden agenda" beyond a simple counting of people, as required by the US Constitution. The 1930 Census is also publicly available, but after 1920, things get fuzzy. "US born" precludes the use of other indicators, and there are more immigrant parents with US-born children. US-born children are accounted for as US-born only, as are their own children. People intermarry, they may not want to "label themselves" to the government (a circumstance that is common in many countries, perhaps your own), later censuses may not ask the relevant questions. For these and other reasons, you'll have to find an "estimate". Half a million sounds as good as any other number, but I don't really know, either.

A small annoyance, aimed at no one in particular: implications, assertions, and conclusions regarding the "Slovene-ness" of those who are of multiple ancestry can be highly offensive on a personal level. It is not said with bad intent, but it may have a bad effect. If your grandmother is a Novak (or whoever), how would you react on hearing your own relatives assert that your "Novak-ness" is considered to be only 1/4th that of a "real" Novak, and that that is probably the reason that you are different than the "real" Novaks? It would sound like your own family doesn't really consider you to be family at all.

24.178.228.14 (talk) 00:11, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

That would be me. I do not suggest that there ever was a hidden agenda, and I do admire the US for that, but simply pointed out that often Slovenians were often counted as Croats. Why?

During the greatest migration waves, Slovenia and Croatia belonged to various states (Austro-Hungarian Empire, Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes, Kingdom of Yugoslavia, later Socialist Yugoslavia, etc.). Since Croats being numerically greater, were better known and was thus easy to group Slovenes under the term Croats (both Catholic, Slavic, etc). I mean, it still happens today!

Don’t worry, I have nothing against it, I myself am from a mixed background and choose neither over the other. In the end, ancestry is often a personal thing, subjective, passed on by those that saw themselves as this and that (be it forcibly or not). Slovenia as Croatia, as many other places, being historical trading/migration routes are indeed ethnically diverse.

I was merely pointing out, that Slovenia’s estimates of outward migration – notably to the US – are so vast, at times devastating to regions (as goes for Croatia mind you), that current US census statistics appear to be rather modest. In the end, it does not matter. America has an unbelievable power to assimilate (nothing wrong with that), a real melting pot – I just believe Slovenes were a greater ingredient than sometimes noted in statistics. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.78.218.206 (talk) 10:23, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Slovenes in Carinthia (figures)

"Most of Carinthia remained part of Austria and 14,000 Slovenians ([17]) in the Austrian state of Carinthia were recognized as a minority and have enjoyed special rights following the Austrian State Treaty (Staatsvertrag) of 1955."

According to the 1951 Census, there were around 42.000 Slovenes in Carinthia - 14.000 is actually the figure from the 2001 Census. Viator slovenicus 22:38, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

And i have to dispute the line "..have enjoyed special rights following the Austrian State Treaty (Staatsvertrag) of 1955." all you realy have to do is read any newspaper in Slovenia or Carinthia to see that the situation of the Sloven minorety in Austria is any thing but good. MaticMan , 14:27, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

The following article cites 40,000 Slovenians in Canada (2005 est.) http://www.theslovenian.com/magazine/2005/glasilo07082005.pdf —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.28.123.134 (talk) 21:36, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

Also, let me quote the 'Slovenian Americans' article.

"In the 2000 US Census, 176,691 Americans declared that they were of Slovenian origin (of those, 738 have attained the Ph.D.). The number of reported Americans of Slovene descent undoubtedly is an underestimate. Some Slovenians coming from the Austro-Hungarian Empire avoided anti-Slavic prejudice by identifying themselves as Austrians. Many others were recorded as Slav, Slavic, Slavish, or Slavonian (see above). The true number of Americans of Slovenian descent is probably between 200,000 and 300,000."

[edit] "related groups" info removed from infobox

For dedicated editors of this page: The "Related Groups" info was removed from all {{Infobox Ethnic group}} infoboxes. Comments may be left on the Ethnic groups talk page. Ling.Nut 23:31, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Slovenian People

Why are some articles ______ people (Lao people, English People) and some articles are _____s (Poles, Slovenians)... isn't there some convention for this??

Because you can't pluralise Lao (Laos?) or English (Englishs? Englishes?), but you can easily pluralise Poles and Slovenians. --212.158.134.242 08:04, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Because with some nationailities such as French, British, Swiss, Dutch, Japanese, we can only use the definite article. 85.160.199.167 (talk) 17:02, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] History

Shouldn't there be atleast a mention of the venetic theory as an objective article? And the history is supposed to match the one in Slovenia so if it's marked as disputed there shouldn't it also be here? See Talk:Slovenia. 86.61.30.53 (talk) 11:17, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Requested move

[edit] Improper synthesis: the number of Slovene Australians

The infobox cites 20,000 as the number of Australians of Slovene descent which is the number copied from Table 1 in this article. However, the text says: "The ethnic strength totals in Tables 1 and 2 do not represent separate individuals but the 'strength' of any particular ethnicity in the total population." --Eleassar ^{my talk} 13:55, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Fixed. I have provided another reference. --Eleassar ^{my talk} 19:11, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Request for expansion

After having inserted the subheading 'History' it has become apparent that the article describes more or less only the history of Slovenes. It could be expanded with sections 'Terms and etymology', 'Distribution', 'Language', 'Culture', etc. (see articles on large ethnicities/nations, like Han Chinese, French People, Germans etc.) I'll try to find time to contribute here but if anyone else is interested too, you're more than welcome. --Eleassar ^{my talk} 19:11, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

WikiProject Ethnic Groups has a template that might generate more ideas. I had used it to work on improving the Tuvans article. See Wikipedia:WikiProject_Ethnic_Groups_Template. --Stacey Doljack Borsody (talk) 03:14, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Great people

Ehhh, why are there no links to "great people" in this article? You know the pics and links you usally find above the nationality name? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.61.72.172 (talk) 01:23, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Feel free to add it. --Eleassar ^{my talk} 12:27, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Carinthian Slovenes

Most of Carinthia remained part of Austria and around 42,000 Slovenes in the Austrian state of Carinthia were recognized as a minority and have enjoyed special rights following the Austrian State Treaty (Staatsvertrag) of 1955.

The figure of 42,000 Slovenes here refers to the Austrian population census of 1951 (the exact number is 42,095). The full chronological sequence of census results is available in the Carinthian Slovenes article. --Jalen (talk) 20:04, 2 June 2008 (UTC).

I just don't find this number in the reference provided so I tagged it with {{failed verification}}. Another citation is needed for the 1951 census. --Eleassar ^{my talk} 21:06, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Symbols

As far as I know, these (CoA, Triglav) are symbols of Slovenia, not Slovenes. I plan to remove the section unless it is attributed to reliable sources. --Eleassar ^{my talk} 15:54, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Well, i think that we should leave them, becouse many Slovenians declare them self with them. If you like you can add unoficial simbols like BLACK PANTER (Črni Koroški Panter), see Macedonians article for example. It is the same problem.--Makedonij (talk) 18:26, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm sorry but unless you find a reliable source citing these symbols as the symbols of Slovenes, this remains original research. --Eleassar ^{my talk} 21:29, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Guys, I would remind you that the issue is solved already by the Slovene constitution. In the deffinition of the symbols is said that "the flag of Slovenia shall be the Slovene national tricolour with the coat of arms of the Republic of Slovenia." Which means that the plain flag is considered (and recognized) as the national symbol of Slovenes. As it has in fact been since 1848. Other widely accepted national symbols are the linden leaf (also symbol of the Slovene Union in Italy and innumerous Slovene associations) and the carnation flower (also symbol of the Carinthian Enotna Lista and framed as a national symbol since even before the national revival in the mid 19th century). As to the black panther, I'm sorry, but it first appears in 1983 in an article by the author Jožko Šavli; since then, it has gained huge popularity, but - unfortunately - it is used almost exclusively by nationalists. Young nationalists, I may add. If you want a reference on that, you get it on Monday or Tuesday. Viator slovenicus (talk) 00:08, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

I ask you to add this kind of info to the article (properly attributed, of course) so that there will be no misunderstandings. --Eleassar ^{my talk} 15:59, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] References

Why do you change references, the number of Gremany is diferent from Swiss census,Germany census shows 21,109, and Swiss shows only 2,000 Slovenians.If you don't mind i'll put them back. The neutral source is more important then the home one.Also i think that nacional census of Slovenia is more neutral then COBISS.--Makedonij (talk) 18:35, 6 June 2008 (UTC) I found one more link showing 21,000 Slovenians in Germany.I will inser bouth of them.--Makedonij (talk) 19:02, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

What COBISS? Ethnic Structure of Slovenia and Slovenes in Neighbouring Countries (Slovenia: a geographical overview) is not COBISS, but a reliable and neutral article written by an expert. It clearly explains why the census number is an underestimate. The same for Slovensko izseljenstvo: zbornik ob 50-letnici Slovenske izseljenske matice edited by Milica Trebše-Štolfa and Klemenčič Matjaž - it is a reliable and neutral work.

As for the Germany, the first link you inserted was 2005 Figures of Statistic Schweiz (your diff). It has nothing to do with Germany, so I removed it. For the references you provided, they show solely the number of foreign citizens of Slovene descent, but neglect the German citizens of Slovene ethnicity. Therefore, they do notequalify as relevant sources. On the other hand, I don't know what makes you think Zbornik is biased. --Eleassar ^{my talk} 21:27, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Acctualy i insert this one, 2006 figures, that above is a diferent on, and i also insert this one Foreignes in Germany and it saies this "At the end of 2003 one third of the foreign population had been living in Germany for more than 20 years, more than two thirds of the foreign children who live in Germany were born in Germany, since 1970 about 3,2 million foreigners have attained German citizenship". Bouth of them shows same nubers 21,000 Slowenians in Germany, and like administrator you should know what is neutral point of view. I would be very pleased if we find compromis here. Also the number of Slovenians in Slovenia, you are traying to ignore national census which shows 1.640,400 Slovenians while the first refernce ZBORNIK shows only Slovenian national point of view.

I dont want to be engaged in edit war, so it will be nice if you change it.--Makedonij (talk) 22:20, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

You may look this one to. --Makedonij (talk) 22:55, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Third Opinion

I was invited to help offer a neutral opinion. Does anyone mind if I contribute in such a capacity? I have no leanings on way or the other on this subject. I will bookmark this page, and wait to hear yes or no whether I can be of assistance. - Arcayne (^{cast a spell}) 23:03, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

It is about refernces are they good enaf to beet Slovenian point of wiev, i mean is that book Ethnic Structure of Slovenia and Slovenes in Neighbouring Countries maded by Slovenian authors more neutral then national census of Slovenia from 2002? And about refernces which shows Slovenians in Gremany. --Makedonij (talk) 23:15, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

What do other folks say about this? - Arcayne (^{cast a spell}) 23:36, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

I don't agree with Makedonij's assessment of what sources are neutral and reliable but lack time and as long as the facts remain unclear I'll leave the article alone. I ask people more knowledgeable in history and social sciences than me (User:Viator slovenicus and User:Jalen) to solve the dispute. Otherwise, I have no objections to Arcayne contributing a neutral opinion. --Eleassar ^{my talk} 15:33, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Okay, thanks. Okay, so would either of you describe the source of the snag being one of reliable/neutral sourcing, or is there something else complicating matters? - Arcayne (^{cast a spell}) 00:18, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

As far as I am concerned, it is about reliable/neutral sourcing. --Eleassar ^{my talk} 14:00, 8 June 2008 (UTC)