Talk:Slovene language/Archive 1

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I just didn't understand the following at all.

One of the characteristics of this language is the future tense where we have

bom bos bo bomo boste bodo plus past participle.


"Dual" is a concept unfamiliar to speakers of English and most Western European languages - you need to explain that one with lots of examples!

i always thought that no Slavic language still had "dual" numbers. In Polish we have few archaical remnants in few proverbs and in some sentences (madrej glowie dosc dwie slowie, instead of: madrej glowie dosc dwa slowa as it should be in modern usage and similar...). Very interesting.

And i actually understand examples :) video is "i see", right? [[szopen]]

Upha. It is very challeging for me to explain my own native language here but I have to keep in mind I am not strictly speaking some grammarian, linguist; philologist or Slovenist ? (= slovenist) - an expert for Slovenistics ? (= slovenistika). Yes szopen you have understand that correctly but unfortunately this particular case was written uncorectly. Let me show. It is simple. That particular verb (= glagol) previous written as absurd in Slovene video (= to see) must be written (On je) videl (= (He) saw). Verb to see is videti and thus it is the "word" all should search in Slovene dictionary of literary (written) language of any kind. My reference for this is Slovar slovenskega knjižnega jezika -a very thick book unbearable even for Slovenes because of its weight, ha, ha. Its computer version 1.0 is more preferable for comp users. This book was written with a great deal of help from computational scientist Primož Jakopin who had recently made his doctor's degree on subjects of the similar field. By his own in early 1980-ies he made some programmes mainly with and on ATARI computers - which made creation of such huge work possible. Authors had also rejected the project to be done with TeX posibilities. So video is like we would depravated say, (or better write) to syea or something like that.
Another back question goes to Derek Ross. What have you changed in your last edition of main article with spelling. I think Slovene spelling is very tuff subject to explain for an average speaker to non - Slovene beginner. Main differents goes to the famouos, let us say anti ASCII leters Č, Š and Ž. Some briefly for these characters write: "C, "S, "Z. In TeX for example is another muddle. According to original Knuth's notation it should be roughly written as \v{c}, \v{s}, \v{z}. I use up to now the oldfashioned and very bad notation based on old DOS and early Windows applications Slavic ASCII characters adopted in Former Yugoslavia as ^, [, @ for capitals (initials)and ~, {, ` for small letters, thus across TeX macro we get weird \^, \[, \@ and \~, \{, \`. This is absolutely bad acceptance for TeX but we won't get into details here. I'll just write that we fall into TeX's proper problems (i.e. math mode and of course the Knuth's 'theory' of hyphenization). These kind of questions are usually solved by TeXCeH a Slovene TeX users group, but they mainly deal with LaTeX which is not bijective to TeX.
So spelling would be treated soon. //Hey XJ look up more carefully spelling not pronunciation. My mistake but let it stay because spelling and pronunciation are somehow conected. I'll give here some example how to pronounce those three Letters Ch, Sh, Zh.
čok (almost like chalk, meaning tree-stump)
šok (almost like shock, meaning of course shock)
žolč (almost like coach if we swap [/kouch/] to [/jouch/] meaning strangely gall) Lep pozdrav (Nice greetings) Rastafire 4 Tuesday (2002.02.28) (0)

videti and videl are even more familiar (widzieć, widział) than video... And Szok and Żółć are almost the same. Problems with TeX are it seems also quite similar. Rastafire, if Slovene is name for your nation, then how you call all Slavs? I mean, Slovene sounds almost like Slowianie... [[szopen]]

Simple. We call them Slovani, singular Slovan. I wasn't aware of such similarities beetwen Polish and Slovene language. I know a lot (for me perhaps at most) similarities with plain and pure Russian language. If they use other alphabet, it does not make any difference to me. We are neighbouring to Croatia and I think with this statement I can open some serious debate which language is the most similar to Slovene one. All would say that Croatian language and Serbian language - sometimes both called together as Serbo-Croatian language are, Bosnian language. Some say that this language is Bulgarian language, or Czech language and for Slovenes harder Slovak language. There are a lot of similarities of course with Macedonian language, but let my statement ramains. (Don't kill me for nothing because of that]]. I can't comprehend Polish alphabet too. Can you give us the whole one? In Slovene language there are 25 unique letters and thus characters, but in computers' world it's a little bit different. Let me write
A,B,C,Č,D,E,F,G,H,I,J,K,L,M,N,O,P,R,S,Š,T,U,V,Z,Ž.
(Western ones Q,W,X,Y are excluded, some Southern Slavic characters too Ć,Đ, but in our encyclopedia's we use them all. This goes to Zundark's strict demand to use here only and only English sorting what in the end makes a lot of sence. We small nations respect the greater ones and it should be vice versa. So you can imagine Slovene programmers to implement even some easy and standard sorting methods. Dear Polish M8 I am also interested in Russian influence (bad or good) to Polish nation. Živjo (Bye)
--XJam 4 Tuesday (2002.02.28) (1st ed.)

Polish alphabet : A Ą B C Ć D E Ę F G H I J K L Ł M N Ń O Ó P R S Ś T U W X Y Z Ż Ź

In fact i very often heard and read that X isn't part of Polish alphabet, but it is used very widely. We don't use Q or V, except for foreign words. Ą, Ę are nasal vowels, sometimes degenerating into simple om and en, ó is the same as u, and Ć,Ś and Ń are sof C,S and N. Ł is like w in english wood. Ż is like Zh, ź is soft Z. Of course we have also ch, sz, cz, rz to denote some sounds: ch is the same as h (this is purely historical difference, once they were pronounced differently) rz is like ż (again, historical difference), sz like sh, cz like ch in english. When we want to have some fun from foreigner, we ask him to repeat suchą szosą Sasza szedł or Nie pieprz Pietrze wieprza pieprzem, or, the best, w Szczebrzeszynie chrząszcz brzmi w trzcinie. No one Westerner is able to pronounce that :)

I guess all Slavic languages are more or less comprehensible. I remember when i was in Czech as a kid, i could easily communicate with Czechs. Except, of course, that i have to hold my laugh :). And, interestingly, one of Arabs i know told me once that he wasn;t able once to tell difference between French, Polish and other European languages...

In Russian influence, i guess you mean linguistic: well, we had it a lot. They are called rusycyzmy and are words and order of words in sentence etc, and they are generally discouraged (heh, i came from city where having a good mark from Russian was generally considered bad idea).

Anyway, Wikipedia policy is against chats on talk pages, so i suppose we would have to end it :-(. Trzymaj sie cieplo (keep warm (or something like that)), szopen

Hey man. VERY VERY VERY VERY INTERESTING. Thank you very much. This is more than just pure chat for me. I meant all kind of Russian influence but thanks anyway. Try the same to say this from Slovene: Klop pod kopljo again very fast. It's hard to say even for us, ha, ha. Polish rusycyzmy is Slovene rusizem, and plural rusizmi. Is singular in Polish as rusycyz(e)m, correct? Spasibo
--XJam 4 Tuesday (2002.02.28) (2st ed.)

To Primož

Yes Primož, I do not want to be a hairsplitter, but I had really found the mixed terms "Freising manuscripts" (which is OK) and "wrong" term "Freisinger monuments" (German - English mixture). You can check this strange statements (navedbe) all around. But I can spare you that time. This was not my typo mistake, so I'll leave what you had corrected. As we all know, English speaking people sometimes use dirrect German phrases as f.l.a.k., Gauss Einsatz, and so on. Best regard. -- XJamRastafire 08:02 Jul 26, 2002 (PDT)

To user:Damian Yerrick QUOTE Western proper nouns or toponyms are not translated in full, as they are in Slavic languages that use the Cyrillic alphabet, such as Russian or Serbian./QUOTE -- Good guess, but sorry, look at the http://www.vets.edu.yu/im/htm/Radionica/Matematicari/Njutn.htm or http://www.medijaklub.cg.yu/kultura/arhiva/11-00/7-11.htm for example of "Njutn". Not only Cyrillic-script Serbian, but Croatian, Bosnian etc. So I changed this paragraph. user:Vassili Nikolaev

Yes, Vassili a good point. And let us clear this a bit more. Your first and second URL are all written and come from a Serbian 'teritory'. It shows off. Croats and Bosnians use strictly Western names. This is in fact somekind of an agreement and I think Damian is not right. Your restoration is therefore correct. I've seen a lot of text continuing both - names in written form and in original form (e.g. Njutn (Newton)), but I've seen even more texts without both forms. For instance I have one good Serbian university textbook from the astronomy, written in Latin, but without original Western names for astronomers. I can't get a full help from its index because I still don't know for some astronomers stated there. Serbs usually say: Pisi kao sto govoris (Write as you speak). Croats could decide to write as Serbs - but obviously they didn't. You can compare these two further Serbian and Croatian URLs -- XJamRastafire 11:14 Aug 27, 2002 (PDT)

To XJamRastafire. Thanks for explanation, I was not sure about Bosnain and Croatian, now I know that only Serbian change original Western names. I think this is because Cyrillic is considered a main Serbian script and Latin script just follows Cyrillic spelling. user:Vassili Nikolaev

I guess - but I am not 100 % shure. We should ask one fully expert of Serbo-Croatian language. Does Russians always change Western names when they write in original alphabet? I know they sometimes write in Latin (specially on the web) - but if I am honest I can't read that, if I don't endeavour myself. I do believe that Slovenes might write as Russians do, if they had decided long ago and vice versa. Cheers. -- XJamRastafire 11:45 Aug 27, 2002 (PDT)

To XJamRastafire No, the general practice is to preserve original Latin spelling for the names originated from Latin-script languages. The problem here is that Russians unfrotunately often don't know and don't care about original spelling, using transliterartion form Russian instead. That's why Nyuton or Njuton sometimes can be found on Russian web-pages. User:Vassili Nikolaev 12:18 Aug 27, 2002 (PDT)

This article is full of factual information, but isn't it way to long and detailed for an encyclopedia article about a relatively minor language? Shoudln't it be on a web site somewhere? Zocky 13:21 Jan 9, 2003 (UTC)

Nah, it just needs some reorganization. Wikipedia has no size limits. --Eloquence
Well, we can't put everything into it, can we? At least move most of the stuff to another article and just leave "what slovene is" in this one. Zocky 13:32 Jan 9, 2003 (UTC)
It's not really that long -- cf. long pages. But if you want to move some stuff, just go ahead. --Eloquence
This article is still in a phase of formation, so whether it is long or not, it is hard to say for now. Yes, the language is minor according to its speakers, although even this is not true. This language is among the 10 % of the world's populations as English and Welsh philologist David Crystal recently said. Its organization is mentioned for example as some others articles about languages (see for example Hebrew language). In this stage everything is still in one layer -- but this will change soon... I like it very much anyway. --XJamRastafire 14:50 Jan 9, 2003 (UTC)