Talk:Slovene Home Guard

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[edit] Removal of paragraph added by anonymous user

I have removed the claim that "However, the Domobranci wanted to ally with the Allies, but as a result of the Yalta Conference, the Allies chose to ally with the Partisans forcing the Domobranci to ally with the Italians and the Germans in order to gain supplies and munitions. Stalin persuaded Roosevelt to side with him in choosing to ally with Tito and the Partisans, where as Churchill was against this idea. The Domobranci's main goal was to live in an independant Slovenian state at any costs".

Firstly, SD was originally set up by General Rösener in September 1943. It is illogical to say that they wanted to "ally with the Allies", as this would have put them into direct conflict with Rösener, who was providing them with weapons, uniforms and training. At his speech when SD took oaths of allegiance to Hitler, Rösener said "On 24 September 1943 I issued the command for the foundation of Slovensko domobranstvo. From the few troops of the so-called White Guard legionnaires, as per my order, Slovensko domobranstvo has grown. With the help of the Greater German Reich, we have trained, clothed and armed you. Today you have taken an oath, that you will, together with the German Army, the military SS and police fight for the freedom of all of Europe”.
Secondly, the reference to Yalta is not correct, I'm afraid. the Allies had been directly supporting the Partisans since the break with Mihailović in early 1943. After the Teheran Conference in 1943 the Partisans received official recognition as the legitimate national liberation force by the Allies. In September 1943, at Churchill’s request, Brigadier General Fitzroy Maclean was parachuted to Tito’s headquarters near Drvar to serve as a permanent, formal liaison to the Partisans. In any case, the Yalta conference did not happen until February 1945. What was agreed at Yalta regarding Yugoslavia was the following:

"VIII. YUGOSLAVIA

It was agreed to recommend to Marshal Tito and to Dr. Ivan Subasitch: (a) That the Tito-Subasitch agreement should immediately be put into effect and a new government formed on the basis of the agreement. (b) That as soon as the new Government has been formed it should declare: (I) That the Anti-Fascist Assembly of the National Liberation (AVNOJ) will be extended to include members of the last Yugoslav Skupstina who have not compromised themselves by collaboration with the enemy, thus forming a body to be known as a temporary Parliament and (II) That legislative acts passed by the Anti-Fascist Assembly of the National Liberation (AVNOJ) will be subject to subsequent ratification by a Constituent Assembly; and that this statement should be published in the communiqué of the conference.

Nor is it logical to say that SD's main goal "was to live in an independent Slovenian state at any costs". It might be logical to say that their main goal was to avoid being part of a Partisan-led Yugoslavia at any costs but that is a quite different matter entirely.

It is also appropriate to bear in mind that SD swore allegiance to Hitler on two occasions in 1944 and 1945:
"Prisegam pri Vsemogočnem Bogu, da bom zvest, hraber in svojim nadrejenim pokoren, da bom v skupnem boju z nemško oboroženo silo, stoječo pod poveljstvom vodje velike Nemčije, SS četami in policijo, proti banditom in komunizmu kakor tudi njegovim zaveznikom svoje dolžnosti vestno izpolnjeval za svojo slovensko domovino kot del svobodne Evrope. Za ta boj sem pripravljen žrtvovati tudi svoje življenje. Tako mi Bog pomagaj".
"I swear by almighty God that I will be loyal, brave and obedient to my superiors, that I will stand in common struggle with the German armed forces, stand under the command of the leader of Greater Germany, SS troops and police against bandits and communism and their allies; this duty I will carry out conscientiously for my Slovenian homeland as part of a free Europe. For this struggle I am also ready to sacrifice my life. So help me God!"
This photo sums SD up clearly: http://www.mladina.si/tednik/200742/clanek/slo-tema--borut_mekina/img/tema-prisega.html-l2
AlasdairGreen27 (talk) 23:08, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] NPOV

Please see the discussion at User_talk:AlasdairGreen27#NPOV:_.22Gregorij_Ro.C5.BEman.3B_Ljenko_Urban.C4.8Di.C4.8D.3B_Domobranci.22 Viator slovenicus (talk) 00:19, 12 January 2008 (UTC) Just as a comment to the discussion on the above link: Boris Mlakar (see reference above) and others have shown tha Romžman left the podium before the oath was taken. He never saluted the Domobranci as the passed by (as is also clearly visible from the photos): this however a minor issue. Viator slovenicus (talk) 01:13, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

I wish you would read what the article actually says before you throw your tags around. It says "The ceremony was followed by a parade where Leon Rupnik, Gregorij Rožman and SS General Erwin Rösener stood on a pedestal in front of the Ursuline Church saluting the Domobranci as they marched past". This statement of simple fact is supported by photographic evidence which nobody except you disputes. If you want to say that Rožman wasn't "saluting the Domobranci" because he was standing there with his hands by his side, that's your privilege.

It seems you are confused, so I'll make it all clear for you. There were two occasions where SD swore allegiance. The first was 20 April 1944, Hitler's birthday. On that occasion, Rožman went to the stadium and read the mass before the ceremony. Then he apparently left the stadium prior to the ceremony itself. The oaths of allegiance were taken after Rožman had left. This is what Mlakar and others (Pečar goes on about it at length in Rožmanov proces: it was her central argument for distancing Rožman from the oaths of allegiance) are talking about.
The second occasion was 30 January 1945, the 12th anniversary of the Nazi takeover of power in Germany. On this occasion, Rožman (as far as I am aware) did not go to the stadium. The mass was read by his curate, Ignacij Lenček. Why this changed from the procedure the first time I don't know. After the ceremony, there was a parade through Ljubljana. Rožman, Rupnik and Rösener stood on a podium outside the Ursuline Church as the SD marched past. Rupnik and Rösener gave Nazi salutes; Rožman did not. However, nobody would take Rožman's presence on the podium, in the middle, between Rupnik and Rösener as anything other than approval for what was going on. Now, what does the article say? The article does not say "Leon Rupnik, Gregorij Rožman and SS General Erwin Rösener stood on a pedestal (...) Nazi saluting", as that is not what one of them did. What it says is that "Leon Rupnik, Gregorij Rožman and SS General Erwin Rösener stood on a pedestal (...) saluting the Domobranci..." If you are unsure what 'to salute' means, the definition is here [1], among other things "to pay respect to or honor by some formal act"; "to address with expressions of goodwill, respect, etc.; greet"; "to make a bow or other gesture to, as in greeting, farewell, or respect" and so on.
My problem, Viator, is your willingness to add POV tags to articles without reading them properly or having a clear understanding of what happened or what Mlakar or others have said.

I hope I have made things clearer. I have removed your tag from a statement which, if you read it, is just an account of what happened. AlasdairGreen27 (talk) 13:08, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Fair enough. Viator slovenicus (talk) 05:10, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Good. I'm sure that together we can make the article better, but that'll be impossible if you charge around like a bull saying "I'm right! I'm right!" Please at least read it before changing anything.-- AlasdairGreen27 (talk) 21:33, 16 January 2008 (UTC)