Talk:Slavic languages of Macedonia (Greece)

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Jd, who will discuss here? Me and you? Do you realize this is a compromise reached among dozens of users between both countries? Or do you suggest that I am lying because it just happens that I am the only one online who discusses on a Chrismas Eve early European morning? Let's discuss where appropriate (Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Macedonia)) if you so wish, but not today (I'm tired). We'll also have to notify all coop boards of course, like WP:GR, WP:HOG and WP:MWNB and also Bulgarian, Albanian, Aromanian and whatever else escapes me. But for the moment, take my word for it: What you are doing is violating a silent compromise that was reached after extensive edit warring. I strongly advise you to revert yourself even in this little insignificant dab article (because I won't). In any case, Merry Christmas! NikoSilver 01:28, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Nonsense

Three languages? According to linguists in FYROM their is only one, the "Macedonian language"; according to linguists in Bulgaria there is only one, the Bulgarian language. According to most linguists there is no such thing as Slavic language (Greece) - Trudgill just uses that term for the dialects which it is unclear whether they are "Macedonian" or Bulgarian (because of lack of information regarding them, speakers self-identify as Greeks etc) and he doesn't want to take sides. There is no such language and no one ever claimed there is one; the term is only used for the sake of political correctness. Even in Greece, no one claims it is a language. They call it ena topiko idioma (a local speech) which is not a language, but a set of distinct idioms. Funny I know ;-) //Dirak 10:30, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

According to most linguists the majority of the varieties spoken in northern Greece fall into the Macedonian side of the spectrum. Not that it matters in the slightest. And Dirak, you should know that there is no real linguistic difference between a language, a dialect and an idiom :) We could move the article to Slavic idiom (Greece), or Slavic (Greece) and it wouldn't make a blind bit of difference :) - Francis Tyers · 13:06, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
Of course there is a difference... it's a POV! I studied folk linguistics at college, I know what I'm talking about. //Dirak 14:51, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

I forgot, WTF are you removing the alternative names of the FYROM language for? You want non-Greek sources? I'll get them for you. This is a disambiguation page, lets disambiguate! //Dirak 14:52, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Also, you do realize that according to the Greek government, there is no Bulgarian, nor "Macedonian" spoken in northern Greece, but only the set of idioms we spoke of (which derive from ancient Greek of course :p). This makes this article in itself one sided and POV; presenting disputed claims as facts. //Dirak 14:54, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Truely, bats are bugs. - Francis Tyers · 21:51, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Rename?

How about renaming this article to Slavic languages in Macedonia (Greece) or something like that. Northern Greece is vague and could start anywhere north of Crete. Why should only Greeks not be able to use the "Macedonia" word every now and again, is it reserved for FYROM? //Dirak 14:57, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Sounds good to me! - Francis Tyers · 21:51, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ethnologue

Also conflates the 'Macedonian language', with 'Slavic language (Greece)', which I'm quite happy to countenance, but I suspect you will not be so ready to follow through in the same vein. - Francis Tyers · 22:14, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

The problem, as with most closely related and mutually intelligible Slavic languages, lies with the self-identification of their speakers. Croatian and Serbian are only separate languages because their speakers feel they belong to separate nations. Similarly, the majority of Slav-speakers of Macedonia who identify as Greeks and the minority who prefer to identify as "Macedonians" would have diametrically opposite views of their language(s). Conflating "Macedonian language" with "Slavic language (Greece)" would also conflate the two antagonistic camps. My guess is that the Greek-identifying bilingual majority of the Slavophone population would take issue with the notion that their Slavic idiom was any more Macedonian than their Macedonian dialect. ·ΚέκρωΨ· 18:06, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
Tell it to Ethnologue. - Francis Tyers · 22:32, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

Hey Fran, kindly ...switch to manual! What Kekrops says is very reasonable, can we source it? NikoSilver 01:54, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Can we source what? That Ethnologue states that the Slavic speaking minority of Greece speak the Macedonian language? Yes, it says it right on their site. "Macedonian, a language of Macedonia, called 'Slavic' in Greece", " 180,180 in Greece (1986 census). Called 'Slavic' in Greece, where 'Macedonian' refers only to people living in Macedonia, a region in Greece." — I'd be inclined to drop Ethnologue as a source altogether considering their numerous failures on the issue. But you wouldn't like that. - Francis Tyers · 11:19, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] slavomacedonian

Should the Slavomacedonian link be kept, or is Macedonian Language sufficient? I'd be inclined to dump it, but it wouldn't be awful to keep it. Seems like a close call either way. I guess keep it unless there is a clear consensus not to. Other editors? Jd2718 19:15, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Delete

Suggest we delete this article. It seems absurd to have one person piling up, if not inventing out of nowhere, articles on Macedonian issues. The themes this person chooses are so open to endless debate that they end up consisting of a clash of POVs rather than articles (no offense intended to Greek or [Slav] Macedonian friends). Could these new articles be interpreted, amongst other things, as the work of a research student having fun and on an easy fishing trip for information? Who knows. But I suggest that the initiator takes a break from Macedonian issues for six months and returns replenished from the break. User:Politis

The article was created as a reasonable compromise so that you don't have to have "Macedonian language" on the Thessaloniki page. It was created in good faith as I know that Greek editors can be tetchy about having Macedonian stuff on pages relating to Greece. I figure if we keep on adding articles and perspectives we'll eventually come out with something we can all broadly agree on, for example Macedonia (terminology), despite the struggles along the way. - Francis Tyers · 11:25, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
FWIW I like this article. //11:26, 27 December 2006 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dirak (talk • contribs)

[edit]  :-)

Francis, I loved this edit [1]. Can we keep it that way? :-) //Dirak 11:14, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

I'd love to :) Have I missed any off? - Francis Tyers · 11:21, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Huh?

This is disappointing. Are you sure, do you have any links about it? What a shame - thankfully though, I got a PC which calls it FYRO Macedonian. Does this mean it's one of the old models? //Dirak 11:44, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

According to a Macedonian organisation this is the case, at least as of 2003. I don't know what OS you use, (Mine uses just Macedonian/Macedonia), but at least Microsoft OSes will [2]. - Francis Tyers · 12:13, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
I guess we shall see when Windows Vista is released early next year. For the time being, all systems running Windows XP (including the Media Center edition released last year) use FYRO Macedonian. ·ΚέκρωΨ· 13:47, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
Aye. - Francis Tyers · 14:01, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
So "formerly" is a bit premature. ·ΚέκρωΨ· 14:07, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps they mean only in their language. See [3] - they say FYRO Macedonian in English and Makedonski in their language. //Dirak 14:58, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
Cheers. That's good enough for me as far as sources go. Straight from the horse's mouth. ·ΚέκρωΨ· 15:00, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
And Windows Vista calls it "Macedonian (FYROM)" [4]. Perhaps this is the deal the Scopian* website speaks of ;-) //Dirak 15:09, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
Not to mention the full locale entry. It appears the only change since Windows XP has been the renaming of FYRO Macedonian as Macedonian (FYROM), probably long overdue as the former was simply absurd. ·ΚέκρωΨ· 15:22, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps when (in a million years or so...) FYROM joins the EU, that is how the "language" will be called by EU bodies. I very much doubt the Greek Parliament would ever ratify a Accession Treaty (a necessary formality) which made a "Macedonian language" an official language of the EU. //Dirak 15:27, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

·ΚέκρωΨ· 15:30, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Bulgaroskopian

The ultimate original research. About 30 unique Google hits, the majority of which are indirect hits on Wikipedia; the small remainder are listserve discussions. It may well be used in Greek, but it's existence in English is mostly thanks to a Wikipedia editor; this should not happen. Jd2718 15:26, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

It's widely used in Greek, but I agree, let's not use it here. //Dirak 15:27, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
Why not? - Francis Tyers · 15:28, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
Many things which are Greek specific find their way on to Wikipedia. It is not necessarily a bad thing. - Francis Tyers · 15:28, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
Bulgaroskopian is an example of an epithet intended to have a pejorative meaning. Its use by far-right groups is pretty convincing proof of that. On the other hand, Slavomacedonian, used in Greek officialdom and mainstream media, is not. ·ΚέκρωΨ· 15:30, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
At one time "negro" or "nigger" was widely used in the Western world and in English to describe Black people, they didn't like it though -- so now we use a variety of terms, most notably the one that they themselves use. The fact that it is widely used does not make it any less pejorative. - Francis Tyers · 15:34, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
The fact that it is perceived to be pejorative by some people does not mean that it is intended to be pejorative by those who use it. On the other hand, a white English-speaker using the word "nigger" today probably does intend it to be pejorative. That's the difference. ·ΚέκρωΨ· 15:38, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
As do Greeks when using Slavomacedonian :) But that is regardless, once it is considered to be pejorative by a set of people, the polite thing to do is to stop using it. I've never seen "Macedonian Slav" or "Slavic Macedonian" described as pejorative — just Slavomacedonian. As a native speaker of English I can certainly say that it rolls off the tongue like a slur. - Francis Tyers · 15:40, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
You are perhaps unaware that Greek is one of the most synthetic languages in the world. Slavomacedonian is the Greek equivalent of "Slav Macedonian". Similarly, Ελληνοαμερικανός = Greek-American, Ελληνοαυστραλός = Greek-Australian, Ελληνοκαναδός = Greek-Canadian, ad nauseam. And guess what? They aren't pejorative either! On the other hand, Σλάβος Μακεδόνας or Μακεδόνας Σλάβος are almost never encountered as they sound unwieldy to a Greek-speaker. Stop thinking like a little Englander and start thinking like a continental if you really want to understand. In a similar vein French has grecochypriote, Spanish has grecochipriota, etc. And you call yourself a linguist! ·ΚέκρωΨ· 15:51, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
We're speaking about English, in English. Where did I say anything about "Slavomacedonian" in Greek? When you use Slavomacedonian in English, it sounds like a slur, and is pejorative, because we have a name that is used for them, "Macedonian". You can improve your English by using "Macedonian Slav" or "Slavic Macedonian" (or if you feel really reasonable, ethnic Macedonian). As a side bonus you will appear more polite! - Francis Tyers · 15:59, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
"We have a name"? Who the fuck is "we"? Are you claiming ownership of the language now? I know plenty of Greeks born abroad whose native language is English and who would never use "Macedonian" the way you do. ·ΚέκρωΨ· 16:08, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
We is just you and me, baby — and yes the English name is "Macedonian". :) Do they speak English English, or one of the countless other varieties? As a counterpoint, I know plenty of Greeks born in Greece whose native language is Greek and who use "Macedonian" exactly the way I do. :) - Francis Tyers · 16:20, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
I'd love to meet this idiosyncratic Greek army of yours one day. ·ΚέκρωΨ· 17:21, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
We is most certainly not me. Not in my name, matey. I too am a native speaker of English and I refuse to accept that you have the right to tell me which name I should use in my own bloody language. ·ΚέκρωΨ· 16:23, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
Well then, you should know better :) - Francis Tyers · 16:42, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
Oh piss off! ·ΚέκρωΨ· 16:50, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
^______^ - Francis Tyers · 16:56, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
Sorry, I don't know what that means. ·ΚέκρωΨ· 17:21, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
Oh and we were having so much fun! :)) - Francis Tyers · 16:24, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Perjorative or not, it is not English. It seems to have been introduced in the naming dispute article, and I have left a note on the talk page there that it should be addressed (editors there will have a better idea what to do about it). Jd2718 15:58, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

comments correctly left in the Macedonia (terminology) talk page Jd2718 16:05, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
Actually it was introduced in the Macedonia (terminology) article. - Francis Tyers · 15:59, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

OK, then. Instead of hypercholesterolaemia, you should ask doctors to start saying "Too Much Cholesterol in the Blood-ia". They might offend someone otherwise with their poor English. ·ΚέκρωΨ· 16:02, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Come on. You know that English borrows many words, but does not borrow every word. Jd2718 16:09, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
There are far too many such examples of synthetic Greek word borrowings to accept your argument that Slavomacedonian is somehow alien to the English language. ·ΚέκρωΨ· 16:11, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
Oops, you've confused me with Francis. Slavomacedonian has certainly entered English. Bulgaromacedonian has not. Jd2718 16:15, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
Actually, it seems you confused Bulgaromacedonian with Slavomacedonian when you claimed above that "it is not English". This is your first mention of Bulgaromacedonian, a term which isn't even used by Greeks, by the way. ·ΚέκρωΨ· 16:19, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] So Many Edits!

I must say, this 6 line article having 54 edits in 5 days is very outrageous!--Ed ¿Cómo estás? 18:11, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Ова е резултатот на грчкиот и славомакедонскиот национализам што се распространети на Википедија и на светот. //Dirak 22:25, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Administrators: AfD and Francis Tyers

My observations suggest that the person User:Francis Tyers who initiated this article has a habit of initiating articles that seem specifically designed to agravate, if not generate antagonisms over the terminology of the word Macedonia. He offers hardly any research and continuously demands references. The article Macedonia Terminology was thrown into wikipedia by himslef and it was by sheer application that it was set straight through the efforts of others. Likewise for Aegean Macedonia, etc... etc...
Where he is absent from starting new articles over teminology, for instance over Greek and Turkish disagreements, anatagonisms are intense but agreement are far more usual. No one is there to start new articles and if they are, they are deleted by common agreement.
Where Article with research is needed - for instance on geographic or political issues in Greece, Bulgaria or Republic of Macedonia (Fyrom), or such necessary information, FT is absent; that is fine, but his article initiatives constantly spill into something like neologisms.
That user further see, in my humble observations, seems to have he ava proclivity to encourage initiatives that 'piss off' people. He has suggested something along those lines to myself.
I suggest to the administrators as well as Greek and Macedonian editors that this article be deleted and FT, once again requested to keep away. Any potential offence caused by my wording is probably due to my own deficiency of expression, but the message remains. Thank you. User:Politis

I still don't get what your problem with this page is. Do you deny that Slavic languages are spoken in Greece? What is wrong with listing them? You should have some fun - go and request a few sources for unsourced claims yourself like I did here [5]. //Dirak 22:29, 27 December 2006 (UTC)