Talk:Skopje

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This is the text from Encyclopedia Britannica 1911 regarding the Ottoman town of Uskub (modern Skopje), which is incorporated into the article:

TODAY IS 06 FEBRUARY 2006 N0T 1901-SKOPJE FOR ALL...

USKUB, USCUP, or SKOPIA (anc. Scupi, Turk. Ushkiib. Slav. Skoplye), the capital of the vilayet of Kossovo, European Turkey; on the left bank of the river Vardar, and at the junction of the railways from Nish and Mitrovitza to Salonica. Pop. (1905) about 32,000, consisting chiefly of Slavs (Serbs and Bulgars), Turks, Albanians and a few gipsies. Uskiib occupies a picturesque and strategically important position at the foot of a valley which severs two mountain ranges, the Shar Planina and Kara Dagh. Main roads radiate N.W. to Prizren, W. to ostivar, an important centre of distribution, E.N.E. to Kuma-novo, and thence into Bulgaria, and S. to Koprulii and Monastir. The city is the headquarters of an army corps, and the see of an Orthodox Greek archbishop, of the archbishop of the Roman Catholic Albanians and of a Bulgarian bishop. Its principal suildings are the citadel, the palace of the vali or provincial governor, the Greek and Bulgarian schools, numerous churches and mosques and a Roman aqueduct. The industries include dyeing, weaving, tanning and the manufacture of metal-work, wine and flour, but Uskiib is chiefly important as the commercial centre of the whole vilayet of Kossovo (_q.ii.). The Imperial Ottoman Bank and the Banque de Salonique have branches in the city, and French is to a remarkable extent the language of commerce. Uskiib retains in a modified form the name of Scupi, one of the chief cities of northern Macedonia. A few unimportant ruins mark the ancient site, about if m. N.W. Scupi was destroyed by an earthquake in A.D. 518, but was rebuilt by Justinian under the name of Justiniana Prima. Up to the i4th century it was at times the capital of the Servian tsars.

I would like to get an explanation from User:Azwhoopin18 as to why he changed the bolded words to "Macedonians" when the original text explicitly argues "Bulgarians". VMORO 16:19, Apr 19, 2005 (UTC)

With regard to the edit of ChrisO: A reasonable question will be why the Serbs will remain Serbs, while the Bulgarians will turn into Macedonian Slavs. And this even if it is accepted that the Macedonian Slavs had the consciousness of nothing else but Macedonian Slavs which is scarcely proveable, they had the consciousness of Bulgarians (unless they proclaimed themselves as Serbs, of course). VMORO 17:00, Apr 20, 2005 (UTC)

idiotic reply again, hehe. i as a macedonian slav, dont have any consciouness of a bulgar, heh. --Azwhoopin18 18:08, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

The idiotic reply is only yours, darling, I guess you haven't managed to realise that this is an encyclopedia published in 1911, and it regards the world at the beginning of the 20th century. So the article "Uskub" is about the historical Ottoman town of Uskub, not about modern Skopje. VMORO 18:48, Apr 20, 2005 (UTC)

Population.The population of Macedonia may perhaps be estimated at 2,200,000. About 1,300,000 are Christians of various churches and nationalities; more than 800,000 are Mahommedans, and about 75,000 are Jews. Of the Christians, the great majority profess the Eastern Orthodox faith, owning allegiance either to the Greek patriarchate or the Bulgarian exarchate.

this is from the Britannica Encyclopeadia 1911 the one u mention

ChrisO, as you can see, by this, and many other articles there, its very one-sided, and propaganda-full. Of the Christians, the great majority profess the Eastern Orthodox faith, owning allegiance either to the Greek patriarchate or the Bulgarian exarchate. -there are 0 greeks in macedonia, and very few bulgarians- -most of the population is members of the Macedonian Orthodox Church, and smaller minority of the serbian o.c.-

regarding macedonia-related articles, that encyclopedia will be non-valid to me.

this is from the Britannica Encyclopeadia 1911 the one u mention

regarding macedonia-related articles, that encyclopedia will be non-valid to me. --Azwhoopin18 18:20, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I was making the point that, in 1905, the Macedonians weren't identified as Macedonians (this is why the 1911 Britannica calls them Bulgarians). Hence my suggested wording: "Macedonian Slavs (who were described as Bulgarians at the time)". It's also anachronistic to talk of the Macedonian Orthodox Church when a separate MOC wasn't created until around 1959 (see [1]). -- ChrisO 19:20, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Which logic is there that in some 100 years whole population of Macedonia can turn from Bulgarians to Macedonians? Don't you think that there would be at least some Bulgarians left?

There is no census (including the one in 2002nd) that showed more than 1000 Bulgarians that live in Republic of Macedonia (which is less than 0.05%). And all the world knows that after 1991st, there is absolutely no presure to someone change his nationality. All the censuses had very good comments from the international comunity.

Another thing that you need to explain is how the Macedonians who lived in Greece and runned away from there, and never been in Republic of Macedonia or Yugoslavia, latter appeared to be Macedonians? They never could be presured by Tito or anyone else, because they moved directly from Aegean Macedonia to USA, Canada and Australia. But, they still feel Macedonian, not Bulgarians, Greek or Serb. I sterbinski 17:05, 12 August 2005 (UTC)

Well, you probably didn't see my earlier comment, so I'll paste it below. They were not only described, they also had the consciousness of Bulgarians. Not only the Skopje Bulgarians, but also the Skopje Serbs participated in the process of formation of the Macedonian nation in the 1940s, it is only that the Serbs were not persecuted for describing themselves as Serbs, as were those who described themselves as Bulgarians.

the earlier comment: With regard to the edit of ChrisO: A reasonable question will be why the Serbs will remain Serbs, while the Bulgarians will turn into Macedonian Slavs. And this even if it is accepted that the Macedonian Slavs had the consciousness of nothing else but Macedonian Slavs which is scarcely proveable, they had the consciousness of Bulgarians (unless they proclaimed themselves as Serbs, of course). VMORO 17:00, Apr 20, 2005 (UTC)

Read my comments above, under CrisO's. Your claims are absolutelly out of any logic. It is truth that part of the Macedonian people in that time were identifying as Bulgarians, but only in the sence of separating themselves from the Serbs and Greeks and their assimilation politics. As soon as Bulgarians started with their own assimilation politics, the Macedonians distanced themselves from the Bulgarian, in order to keep their separate ethnicity and identity. Another thing that I don't understand is why the Macedonians in Bulgaria still identify themselves as Macedonians. They were victims of the Bulgarian assimilations for very long time, but they managed to keep their identity. And, Tito was not there to scare them, as the Bulgarians claim. Actually, Tito was the one who was inprisoning everyone who was promoting the Macedonian nationality and history. Those people were inprisoned as separatists. That does not seem as a support for keeping our national identity as Macedonians. But, we still did. I sterbinski 17:16, 12 August 2005 (UTC)

It was already pointed out at the Goce Delchev article that polls and stuff taken in the Ottoman Empire were according to one's church affiliation. At the time, there was a Serbian Orthodox Church and a Bulgarian Orthodox Church. That is why they are transcribed as Serbs and Bulgarians. User:Zaebangad 18:35, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Bulgarians in Skopje? Where?

Dear VMORO and all other Bulgarians. Shortly and clearly: There were no Bulgarians EVER in Skopje, except when you supported Hitler and occupied Skopje, so your soldiers were here for 2-3 years. I have a living grandfather from 1920s, he is a living prove of the truth. Till the 1930s, Bulgarian was a synonym for "Slavic Ortodox". Same as 150 years ago American ment person living on any of the American continents and nowdays it means US citizen. I invite you to visit Skopje at any time and try to find Bulgarians here. Then, you will be able to stop your assimilation wishes and live a real life. We all feel only Macedonian, and you can only dream us to be Bulgarian. Deal with it and get a life. Personally, I would rather be dead than be Bulgarian. Noone did worse to us during our history than Bulgarians. And you keep doing it.

You can post this and your other threats in a forum, here it just looks silly. Smartech

Disregarding the militant tone in your voice, Istirbinski, the Slavic population of historical Uskub (prior to WWI) viewed itself either as Bulgarian or as Serbian. This is reflected in the article, a link to which I have provided, as well as in all other historical sources from the time period. The article in 1911 encyclopaedia was actually used previously to create an article Uskub here, which was later integrated into the Skopje article. As regards the rest, I would recommend you keep yourself to factuality and refrain from sending me messages where you tell me how you are gonna "strangle me". This kind of behaviour is beyond contempt. VMORO 14:19, August 6, 2005 (UTC)

It is not acceptable you making assimilation edits on Wikipedia, but you actually do it all the time. And, stop talking bullshit that Macedonian nation was created in the 40s. I have a grandfather (still alive) that was fighting for Macedonia's independence since the 1920s and, actually "strangling you" are his words. Just to show you how much not Bulgarian he feels.

And which stupidity is to claim that in just 70 years whole population of Macedonia of about 2 millions can completely revert from Bulgarian to Macedonian. If they ever were Bulgarians, at least someone will still feel that way. But, they never were Bulgarians.

There are many Macedonians who never lived in Republic of Macedonia and Tito was never their president, but they still feel Macedonians. The ones who runned away from Aegean Macedonia to Australia, USA and Canada. They couldn't have any presure from anyone, but they still are Macedonians. How do you explain that? I sterbinski 16:55, 12 August 2005 (UTC)

Again the same pathetic streak - we are the victims, we are the subject of assimilation, when are you actually gonna stop whining, Isterbinski? First of all it is about 1.3 mln Macedonians, not 2.0 mln. Secondly, cases like Krastyu Misirkov and Venko Markovski who converted from being Bulgarian to being Macedonian and the other way around several times are indicative of how easy the transition between a "Macedonian" and a "Bulgarian" was at that point. Third of all, you put more than 100,000 people in concentration camps and prisons (Goli Otok and Idrizovo) and until 1990 it was a criminal act to educate one's children as Bulgarians in FYROM. Fourth of all, the emigrants to Canada and Australia all came at the end of the 1940s when there was a very aggressive Macedonian propaganda in Aegean Macedonia - the ELAS fighters were publicly supported and financed by Tito. Earlier emigrants to the USA were and have remained Bulgarians. VMORO 18:15, August 12, 2005 (UTC)

Yeah, right. It takes more than decades to convert an entire country's nationality (especially today, when nationalism plays an important role), no matter what the opression is like! Furthermore, if they escaped so early during the "opression" (according to you, it started around 1945), they would still feel Bulgarians. 5 years aren't enough to change anyone's nationality. Religions, for instance, were able to survive for centuries under opression. Besides, The Yugoslavian motto was "Proleteri svih zemalja, ujedinite se!", (Proletars of all countries, unite!) Communists couldn't care less about one's nationality, as long as their national beliefs didn't threaten the unity of the Union. Some nationalities which were unofficial before that (like the Macedonians and Bosnians, which were not acknowledged in the Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes)), were acknowledged. The persons who were sentenced to Goli Otok opposed the communist regime. User:Zaebangad 18:35, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Macedonian nation is different then Bulgarian nation. Bulgarians in the history make a lot of presures to Macedonian people. But today Macedonia is independent state and we will take care about ourself.

[edit] Teodosij Gologanov

AKeckarov, what was this Teodosij babbling about? Maybe he was an agent of Comintern? I am sure you can understand the following, you always claim how Macedoninan is only dialect from Bulgarian.

Teodosij Gologanov, (1846-1926) Skopski egzarhiski mitropolit mu pisuva pismo na arhimandritot Dionisij vo Sofija:

Do Negovoto Vseprepodobie, G. Dionisij Sofija

Skopje, 22 Juni 1891 g.

Predrag mi vo Hrista brate,

Cudna e promislata Bozja, a uste se pocudni patistata negovi. Hristos propovedase ljubov megu lugeto i za nea otide na Krst, a nie lugeto, vo imeto na taa Hristova ljubov, so negoviot najsvet simbol – Krstot, sirime megu lugeto najgolema omraza i gi potisnuvame duhovno i nacionalno ubeduvajki gi deka dobro im cinime. Taka i nasata sveta Egzarhija na celo so blazeniot Egzarh Josif I pravi sevozmozno da go ubedi kutriot makedonski narod deka mu go misli dobroto, deka se grizi za negovata segasnost i idnina i deka saka da go izvadi od temninata na nacionalnoto neosoznavanje i od nego da sozdade sveti bugari. A ne treba mnogu da te ubeduvam, premil brate vo Hrista, deka svetata nasa Egzarhija so svojata crkovna i prosvetna dejnost tuka vo Makedonija vrsi vsusnost najmizerna zadaca, mu go odzema imeto na eden narod i go zamenuva so drugo, mu go odzema majciniot jazik i go zamenuva so tug, za da obezbedi na svojata vlada i svoite bugarski corbadjii da si ja prosirat trgovijata i na tuga teritorija. A kako ova ti ke go nareces, Dragi brate, ako ne novo ropstvo, postrasno od turskoto. Turcite zemaat imoti i zivoti na rajata no ne posegnuvaat vrz negoviot duh. Tie go unistuvaat teloto, no duhot go pocituvaat. A nasata sveta Egzarhija go ubiva ova drugoto, postojanoto. Toa li e bratski i hristijanski odnos?...” I ova ti go pisav za da ne te cudi moeto poranesno pismo vo koe ti go iznesov moeto mislenje deka nie duhovnicite po poteklo Makedonci treba da se zdruzime i da go kreneme nasiot narod da se razbudi, da gi otfrli tuginskite upravi, da gi otfrli i Patrijarsijata i Egzarhijata i da se obedini duhovno vo kriloto na Ohridskata Arhiepiskopija, negovata vistinska majka crkva. Ne e li krajno vreme da se zapre nacionalnoto dvizenje na eden ist narod samo poradi toa sto edni ja priznavaat patrijarsijata, a drugi egzarhijata, dodeka tretiot mu se poklonuva na muhamed. Ne e li krajno vreme da sopre omrazata megu brat i brat? A kako toa moze da se stori ako ne preku svoja narodna crkva, preku Ohridskata Arhiepiskopija. Jas ke bidam iskren dragi brate vo Hrista i otvoreno ke ti recam: nie Makedoncite nemame tolku maka od Turcite, otkolku od Grcite, Bugarite i Srbite, koi kako orli na mrsa se vpustija vo ovaa nasa mnogustradalna zemja i sakaat da ja rascerecat... ”Centralen drzaven istoriceskij arhiv - Sofija, 176, op. 1, arh. Ed. 595, l. 5-42”

Mitropolitot Teodosij Gologanov go iznesuva istorijatot na nezakonskoto ukinuvanje na Ohridskata Arhiepiskopija vo 1767 g. i bara nejzina obnova vo unija so Rimokatolickata crkva.

Mitroplit Teodosij Gologanov do Papata Lev XIII

Do Svetiot Otec Papata Lev XIII Rim

Jas, dolupotpisaniot Mitroplit skopski Teodosij, po milosta bozja kirijarh na skopskata eparhija, ja podnesuvam ovaa svoja molba od svoe ime i od imeto na cela pravoslavna pastva od Makedonija, so koja ja molime negovata svetost da ne primi vo kriloto na Rimokatolickata crkva, otkako ke nija obnovi starodrevnata Ohridska arhiepiskopija, nezakonski ukinata od sultanot Mustafa III vo 1767 godina, i ke ja stavi vo kanonsko edinstvo so Rimokatolickata crkva. Nasata zelba proizleguva od istoriskoto pravo na makedonskiot pravoslaven narod da se oslobodi od jurizdikcijata na tuginskite crkvi, Bugarskata egzarhija i Carigradskata patrijarsija, da se obedini vo svoja edinstvena pravoslavna crkva i gi dobie site belezi na narod koj koj ima pravo na samostoen dohoven i kulturno-prosveten zivot. Ve molime, Vasa Svetost, da gi imate predvid specificnostite na pravoslavieto, od koi pravoslavniot narod nikogas nema da se otkaze: nezavisnosta vo duhoven pogled, bogosluzbata i svestenickata obleka. Se preporacuvam na Vasite molitvi i snishodveno Vi se poklonuvam, Vas vo Hrista brat i molitvenik,

4 Dekekemvri 1891 godina Skopje

Teodosij Mitropolit skopski

Vo prilog na pismoto se dadeni uslovite za premin vo unija so Rimokatolickata crkva. Archivio della S. Congregazione de propaganda Fide – Roma: "Indice della Ponenza-Marzo 1892-93", Somm. XV, f. 132-141

Augusto Boneti, sef na Lazaristickata misija so sediste vo Carigrad, od Noemvri-Dekemvri 1891 god. vodi pregovori so Egzarhiskiot mitropolit vo Skopje Teodosij Gologanov za obnova na Ohridskata arhiepiskopija pod pokrovitelstvo na Rimokatolickata crkva. Ke navedam samo citati od dve negovi pisma do "Svetata kongregacija za propaganda na verata vo Rim", vo koi toj objasnuva sto se slucilo so mitropolitot Teodosij Gologanov i kako reagiral Makedonskiot narod na toa:

6 januari 1892 Carigrad No 187

Do Svetata kongregacija za propaganda na verata vo Rim

Vo vrska so moeto pismo od Skopje od 4 dekemvri minatata godina, Vi soopstuvam deka dojde do izvesni nastani koi nasata zamisla za priem na Mitropolitot skopski Teodosij vo unija so celata Makedonska pastva se komplicira poradi docnenjeto na odgovorot od Rim. Izvesten sum od nasiot svestenik, otec Ivan Nelidov deka po naredba na Visokata Porta, a po izrecno baranje na Egzarhot, mitropolitot go napustil Skopje i e na pat za Carigrad vo pridruzba na svojot rodnina (brat) Ivan Gologanov. Egzarhot veke podgotvil obvinitelen akt protiv nego...

Apostolski delegat Augusto Boneti Archivio della S. Congregazione de propaganda Fide – Roma: "Indice della Ponenza-Marzo 1892-93", Somm. XV, f. 132-141

Apostolski vikarujat No 187 12 Mart 1892 Carigrad

Do Svetata kongregacija za propaganda na verata vo Rim

Vasa Eminencijo,

Vo vrska so vaseto mnogu ceneto pismo od 20 Januari 1892 g., br. 12342, Ve izvestuvam deka vcera Mitropolitot skopski Teodosij e lisen od skopskata katedra so resenie na egzarhiskiot duhoven sud i e doneseno resenie vednas da se isprati vo Sofija na prinuden prestoj vo nekoj manastir. Za vreme na svojot prestoj vo Carigrad mitropolitot Teodosij napravi dva pati obid da sretne so mene i vo taa smisla go molese nasiot svestenik, otecot Ivan Nedilov. Jas megutoa odbiv da se sretnam licno, posocuvajki deka cekam odgovor od negovata svetost, koj edinstveno resava za prasanjeto. Sloboden sum da go iskazam svoeto mislenje, Vasa Eminencijo. Ako bevme po efikasni, ke mozevme da slavime eden znacaen uspeh vo Bozjoto delo. Dozvolete mi da preporacam i natamu da ne se otkazuvame od idejata za preveduvanje na Makedonskata pastva vo kriloto na nasata Sveta Crkva. Mojot predlog, Vasa Eminencijo, se zasnova vrz provereni vesti od Makedonija, kade sto pastvata od Skopskata eparhija, kako i onaa od cela Makedonija, ostro reagira protiv smenuvanjeto na mitroplitot Teodosij i dava izjavi deka e gotova da premine vo unija so nasata Sveta crkva. Se preporacuvam na Vasite molitvi i ostanuvam veren.

Vas Apostolski delegat Augusto Boneti Archivio della S. Congregazione de propaganda Fide – Roma: "Indice della Ponenza-Marzo 1892-93", Somm. XV, f. 132-141 --Cigor 13:01, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

Cigor, I am Macedonian (from Ohrid) so I am understand this regional norm of Bulgarian language very well (But originally Teodisija didn't wrote in this language norm). I'll ask to verify your sources in Centralen drzaven istoriceskij arhiv - Sofija, 176, op. 1, arh. Ed. 595, l. 5-42, because one of your quotes (in Edit summary) is very questionable This is the site of Archive of Macedonia, but there are candid fakes on it - http://www.soros.org.mk/archive/G04/01/sm2004.htm (Not Bulgarian Folk Songs of Miladinov Brothers, but only Folk Songs - in Document :)).

I am not impressed. The conflict between Teodosia Gologanov and Ekzarh Joseph (Bishop Teodosie was his substitute) is touch on in historiography. However Teodosia was and died like good Bulgarian from Macedonia (from region of Nevrokop where the dialect is more Eastern Bulgarian than Western). But did Teodosia led some Macedonian Slavs community in Skopje in 1905? Did exist some Macedonian Slav community in Skopje in the begining of XX century? How many contemporaries met Macedonian Slavs in 1905 in Skopie - separate from Bulgarians (or Serbs)? (And please, note - not Macedonian Slavs like common term about every Slavs in MK, but like equal term with Bulgarians and Serbs). I кnow only one (author). Help me and add more exceptions to the observations of the contemporaries. My oppinion is that there are not place in historical section for some community which is not existed in the concrete historical epoch or which was only in the head of 2-3 hesitatеd intellectuals. Regards,--AKeckarov 19:27, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

Great, I am also Macedonian from Ohrid (well, my parents are from there). You are reverting first and intend to verify the sources. Surely, it should be the other way? It is not my goal to impress you. You ask for statements, I provided you. If you look at different Skopje stats, you'll see that the number of Bulgarians and Serbs varies a lot - some times is 10:1, sometimes 3:1 (all Bulgarian sources). Latter, most of them disappeared and turned Macedonians. It's funny to talk about them as strong communities. It looks like you are identifying community with church allegiance. The case of T. Goluanov clearly shows there was a desire to recognize separate community, different than Bulgarian, Serb or Greek. The fact that it failed, does not mean that such sentiment wasn't there. The fact that you already know of an author that writes about separate Macedonian people, prompts me not to write further about that. Furthermore, the disputed sentence is like that quite long time (long time for Macedonia related articles, LOL), so is obvious there was some kind of consensus. Either why the topic should be firstly resolved in more relevant articles such as the article of Macedonians or something like that, and THEN here. As far I know, this is not done yet, so your edits violates NPOV.

Best regards --Cigor 20:51, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

And since you are from Ohrid surelly you know about this one, certanly not 2-3 intelectuals:

Do negovata Svetost Velikit Ptrijarh vo Carigrad,

Nie vernite podanici na Negovoto Velicestvo carot Sultan abdul Hamid I od dolgo vreme nemame crkovna sloboda, a od 1872 godina stanavme uste poveke zabludeno stado, zosto dojdovme pod Bugarskata egzarhija, zabludeni od bugarskata propaganda. Taka i nie stanavme sizmatici.

Nie, slovenite od Makedonija, od sekoga sme imale svoja crkva, Ohridska arhiepiskopija, koja imase sediste vo nasiot grad. Denes nie bi sakale odnovo da si ja vratime i taka da ziveeme vo sloga so Velikata crkva.

Bidejki nam ni e potrebno Vaseto sveto blagovolenie po odnos na nasata slovenska crkva vo Makedonija, poradi toa Ve molime, makar i da sme izlazani od strana na Bugarite, da ni prostite, bidejki ste blag Hristov sluzitel i da ni ja obnovite nasata crkva. Pokraj toa sto Bugarite ne izmamiija i izlagaa, tie ni go otfrlaat i jazikot, ni gi menuvaat i nasite sveti obicai i ja menuvaat i seta nasa lika i prilika. Nie toa ne mozeme veke da go trpime i sakame nasite deca da ne kolnat nas i grobovite na nasite pradedi...

Potpisani se 120 Ohrigani (mazi)

DA DSIP – Beograd – PPO, F. 7, d. 6, p. br. 962, 1890 --Cigor 21:05, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

Cigor first I want to specify that I wasn't born in Ohrid too, but my origin is from there. (Since you are from Ohrid surelly you know about the Keckarov family and their endevours for Macedonian-Bulgarian cаuse and that their endevours was common purpose for majority of Ohrid citizens in XIX and begining of XX contury - the epoch of National Revival).

The second thing: I want to specify that there are two disputs between as. The main is: Was there in Skopie some Macedonian Slavs in the very begining of XX century, different from the other Slavs - Bulgarian and Serbian and the second, lateral problem - The exact ideas of Bulgarian Bishop Theodosie. So I deleted the assertion about existing in Skopie in 1905 of some macedonian slavs, because there are any evidences fot it. I said you that I'll verify your questionable sources about Theodosie (the lateral problem), not about the (non)existing of some Macedonian community in Skopie in that time. But let thinu about your agrument - if we acept that the conflict between Theodosie and Ekzarh Joseph wasn't personal or political, but national(?!) what that prove? However there wasn't Macedonian community in Skopje. You can find many differences in different statistics, but in which you found Macedonian Slavs along with Bulgarians and Serbs? --AKeckarov 13:01, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Name in Greek

I got the spelling Σκόπια from Names_of_European_cities_in_different_languages#S. There, it says that that form is Ancient Greek, although the 1911 Britannica article suggests that the Ancient Greek form was instead Scupi. I changed the transliteration from Skópia to Skōpia, but I guess that would only apply (according to Transliteration of Greek to the Latin alphabet) if it's Ancient Greek. Basically, I removed "Ancient", but someone more knowledgeable can clarify which form of Greek is being discussed. Ardric47 04:09, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

I found the translation of lookout tower in Greek σκοπιά/skopia, can someone add the citation for me: Answers.com - Translations for "Lookout". Scroll down and you will see the English to Greek translation of lookout tower. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.254.225.15 (talk • contribs) 12:24, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Good work :-) However, since I don't speak Greek, before adding it to the article, are you sure that σκοπιά is the modern Greek word for "lookout tower" and not something very similar ? (Does anyone have any idea of what the ancient Greek word was ?)

By the way, I found the name Scupos (instead of the usual Scupi) in a Spanish-language book:

Los Macedonios. Los Griegos del Norte y la Época de Alejandro Magno ("The Macedonians. The Greeks of the North & the Time of Alexander the Great"), p. 25, ed. Julia Vokotopulu, Kapón, Athens, 1996.

Stobi too is mentioned as Stobos. I guess that the odd naming has something to do with the book being published in Greece... (usually, Spanish books use Scupi and Stobi too).

Besides that, a map in The Times Atlas of World History, p. 93 (Fourth edition, London, 1994), mentions Scupi (together with Stobi and Scodra) as an "early archbishopric" already founded by the year 600. But I have no further confirmation to add it to the article.

Regards, Evv 14:53, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

lol Confirmed. Catholic Encyclopedia: Scopia. - Evv 15:13, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] POLL: Introduction for Republic of Macedonia article

Given ongoing discussions and recent edit warring, a poll is currently underway to decide the rendition of the lead for the Republic of Macedonia article. Please weigh in! E Pluribus Anthony | talk | 01:04, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Pink Zone?

If this "Pink Zone" is going to get a mention, the text should at least say where it is, not just "stating in Square Macedonia".
"GLBT" should be defined.
The Gallery section shouldn't appear underneath this in the heirarchy.
"Most interesting" isn't neutral language.

I'm only visiting Skopje for two days but didn't notice anything overtly gay around the square. Can a local comment on whether this is a real phenomenon or someone getting a little overenthusiastic about Skopje's first gay bar?

Shermozle 16:12, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

I live in Skopje, and this is the first time I've ever heard of this Pink Zone. Absolute NONSENSE. Should be deleted.

Viktorvojnovski 22:22, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] External links

A link to ExploringMacedonia.com was added by 219.115.3.169 (talk · contribs) (diff.). It's the Macedonian official tourism portal, apparently established by their Ministry of Economy. Shouldn't it stay ? - Regards, Evv 16:25, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] 19th century Map

There is a 19 or early 20 century map of Skopje with its ethnic districts - the copyright has expired. I hope to include it soon in this article. Politis 15:51, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Greek name is Σκόπια /skópia (meaning watchtower).

Greek name is Σκόπια /skópia (meaning watchtower). Some admin having edit access in the article, please fix the mistake. Bold text

[edit] Requesting a Brief Mention of Mother Teresa's Birthplace Marker

I'd like to see the following added to Tourist Attractions section:

A small plaque in the corner of Macedonia Square notes the location of Mother Teresa's birthplace. Brass bricks in the square outline where the tiny house stood. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 75.18.231.57 (talk) 00:49, 10 March 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Medieval

I've got some info on Medieval Skopje, if anyone's interested... --PaxEquilibrium 08:06, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Albanian name

Enough of the edit warring, it's not getting anyone anywhere. Work it out here, all of you. -Bbik 01:42, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Actually I don't see the point to have Albanian translation of 'City of Skopje', what purpose does it serve at all? English and Macedonian are enough. It is being edited. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.87.56.76 (talk) 10:04, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Since at least one person seems confused, even if it is an IP edit rather than any of you previously edit warring, and since there's no discussion whatsoever talking place now that the page is fully protected, I'll list the two sides as I understand them. Anyone, feel free to correct me, and all of you, come and work out a solution so this warring won't happen again. Having the page be fully protected (indefinitely, might I add) because of a few words is stupid.

Pro-Albanian name: (should be included)

The Albanian population in the city is greater than 20%.
Any language spoken by at least 20% of the total population is considered an official language of the country.
Any language spoken by at least 20% of a given community is considered an offical language in the relevant municipality.
Albanian falls under both of these categories, and is therefore an official language in Skopje, and Macedonia.
Possibly a policy that states minority languages should be included when they make up more than 15-20% of the population. (Does such a thing exist? I vaguely remember seeing one a while ago, but can't remember where. For all I know, it may have been some sort of essay-recommendation instead, but hopefully if such a policy exists, this will bring it into the open. If it doesn't exist, either ignore or delete this bullet point.)

Con-Albanian name: (should not be included)

Albanian is only official as a secondary language alongside Macedonian.
~~The city is not part of Albania.~~ *
~~This is not the Albanian wiki.~~ *

*Struck out per request below.

Any reasons I've forgotten? Any comments people have in addition to the reasons? Based on the reasons I've seen and listed here, it looks like the Albanian name definitely should be included, but this is the time/place to give reasons to the contrary. -Bbik^★ 15:06, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Please strike the first and last one down. German is official in Switzerland yet the country is not Germamy, and second, this isnt the ethnic Macedonian wiki either. Mr. Neutron 15:35, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, but I'm not quite sure what you mean. The first and last of which group? Or do you mean the first of the Pro, and the last of the Con? And, where have I called Switzerland Germany (or Macedonia Albania)? Is it perhaps a confusion with the country versus the language?

As for "ethnic Macedonian wiki" (??), I assume you're refering to the point that this isn't the Albanian (language) wiki? The only reason I included that is because I've seen that argument used to "justify" the inclusion or non-inclusion of things in the past. I personally think it's a particularly stupid/useless argument, but I added it to try and make the list complete. It's up to those of you with strong(er) opinions one way or the other to determine the validity, relevance, and importance of the arguments. -Bbik^★ 17:14, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

I meant first and last con. Switzerland/Zurich is an example of a city outside Germany where German is official. Mr. Neutron 17:37, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Ok, I've struck them out, since it looks like those two exact arguments haven't actually been used here yet. However, I don't want to remove them entirely, because I'm sure that if I do, they will be used. At least this way it's shown that they've been considered, if still deemed unworthy. -Bbik^★ 22:33, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Please fix this link ye who can

{{editprotected}}
"(See also: other names of Skopje)"
should be changed to:
"(See also: other names of Skopje)"
Pasquale 16:12, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Done. Cheers. --MZMcBride 18:15, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Bulgarian capital ?????

Skopje was the seat of the Byzantine province of bulgaria, but has necer been the capital of a state named bulgaria, so I suggest that to be removed from the article, it confuses the people as it is not true. But Skopje has been the capital of serbia, therefore I have nothing to confront with that.

[edit] Albanian origin?

I dont want to offend anyone but isnt Skopje related to Shqipëria (i.e. Albania)? It seems pretty clear to me, putting aside issues of nationalism...--Burgas00 15:36, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

No, not at all. I will write more about ethymology when the article is unprotected. Nikola 07:50, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Скопје has nothing to do with Albania, it never has —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.140.6.120 (talk) 21:10, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Id like to see this "pretty clear to me" thing, he, he, what makes y think this way, can y post something? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Гоце Делчев (talk • contribs) 22:05, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] HUT??

Since when does the name Skopje mean hut? It's ancient Greek for look out/watch tower as pointed out by others. It should be reverted to the original text.

Φil hellenism 04:30, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Actually, according to the Greek dicationary quoted (Babiniotis) it is not. It just happens to sound similar to skopiá (and that word, in that form, isn't ancient either, it's purely Modern Greek). Babiniotis derives the city name from the name of an Illyrian pre-Greek population, as the article rightly quoted him. Fut.Perf. ☼ 19:01, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Change the Name

Get rid of the Albanian translation people, what's up with that??? —Preceding unsigned comment added by E nesovski (talk • contribs) 14:33, August 28, 2007 (UTC) No albanian re-name of Скопје, just the official and the English/Latin Skopje will do fine. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.140.6.120 (talk) 21:12, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

The Albanian name is needed, because Albanians are more than 20% in Skopje, and by the Ohrid agreement their language is also official. Mr. Neutron 21:19, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Ok, but if Albanian minority has to have their official re-name of Скопје why dont we write the Turk and the Serbian names too, they got rights as the Albanian minority dot y think? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.140.6.120 (talk) 21:48, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

The capital city of Spain, Madrid, in its Wiki page has just the spanish name, not the translations in Catalan or Basque although they are co-official languages too, so i dont see the point of renaming the capital city of Macedonia, Skopje in Albanian, even its co-official Macedonian language. Can someone explain this plz[2] -If no one can answer this question, than i find not necessary using any co-offcial lang names- —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.140.6.120 (talk) 21:48, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

I just checked, Geneve, Switzerland here. There are 170,500 foreigners (38.7%)in the city, and still there is only 1 title of the city name. I think that's enough... —Preceding unsigned comment added by E nesovski (talk • contribs) 21:07, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Unprotected

Wow, this has been protected for more than three months?! Okay, unprotecting now, we can't keep it locked that long. Please note that this is not an invitation to renewed edit-warring. If new revert-wars happen here, I'll be strongly inclined to react with blocks (below 3RR if necessary), not protection, because we really shouldn't be keeping the page closed to good-faith constructive contributions just because some people feel they need to battle over the mentioning of a name. Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:35, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Ok, that makes sense, but when the wiki page of Madrid will have the translations in Catalan and Basque, than i think Skopje should have the Albanian re-name too. Otherwise it is not right and does not make sense. And if no one can explain this to me, dont re-write the co-official language(s). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.140.6.120 (talk • contribs)

This anon re-started the revert war immediately after unprotection. I've blocked them for 24 h. This is exactly what I meant. Don't do that. Fut.Perf. ☼ 12:35, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Edit name

The Albanian name is essential in this article. In Macedonia Albanians are not just any ethnic minority; the Albanian language is co-official with Macedonian Slav nationwide, and is specifically official in the City of Skopje as Albanians element in the city exceeds 20%. As the anon likes comparing with Madrid, please check out the following: according to Britannica on Spain [3] Castilian Spanish is the official language, according to Britannica on Macedonia [4] "Macedonian" and Albanian are the official languages (ethnic minority languages in both countries such as Basque and Catalan, and Serbian and Turkish are not mentioned). Furthermore, the official website of the Skopje has an Albanian translation [5], the official website of Madrid has no minority languages [6]. I think the comparison with Madrid is misleading anyway. Madrid is not a municipality with many official languages, only Spanish is official there. Skopje municipality however has two official languages, so perhaps it should be compared with a city like San Sebastián (which also has two official languages).--NetProfit 21:23, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

The use of the Albanian name of Skopje is still disputed, for example you will find no sign in Skopje with the Albanian name of the city, its only in Macedonian and English. This is what got the article locked for 3 months, why not just leave it in English to prevent edit wars? Fatmanonthehorse 21:37, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

So what if it is disputed? NPOV is sometimes disputed. I suggest you read Ohrid Agreement[http://www.coe.int/t/e/legal_affairs/legal_co-operation/police_and_internal_security/OHRID%20Agreement%2013august2001.asp

] to understand why it should be used. ForeignerFromTheEast 21:39, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

I mean it is still disputed among officials from the local government in Skopje. Yes, according to the Ohrid Agreement it might be official but it has not been enforced at all in Skopje upto date. For example you will find no sign in Skopje with the Albanian name of the city, its only in Macedonian and English. Fatmanonthehorse 21:46, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Any sources for this?--NetProfit 21:55, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

-The official site of the Republic of Macedonia Goverment [7]

-Macedonian official National tourism portal[8]

-Links to the major official Republic of Macedonia Goverment Sites [9]

All of this are just in Macedonian and English, this confirms the statemet of User:Fatmanonthehorse.

The name Skopje, is latin translate of Скопје written in cyrillic alphabet[10], they are synonims. They have the same pronunciation ['skopje][11]. Skopje/Скопје is the name in wich the whole world reffers to the city. This is much different from from the name Shkupi, wich is mor of an endonym, has a different pronunciation and is quite misleading. Even the fact that on the Albanian wiki page under Skopje we find the nominee Shkupi[12], and on the International page we find the name Shkup, wich is different, suggest the local unofficial character of this nomination ( have looked but i have not even find the IPA of this nominee/s). So i think the Skopje/Скопје would be just fine, at least till all matters are clear. Best regards to all :) Alexander Mak 09:34, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Republic of Macedonia goverment sites are irrelevant to this as this is about the specific municipality and not the national government. As for your distinction between Shkup and Skhupi, it's the same distinction between the Greek Skopia and ta Skopia. Place names in Albanian and Greek take the definite article (the Skopje), except in Albanian it is affixed to the end and in Greek it precedes the noun. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.27.138.221 (talk) 12:15, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

- I would not say that the sites are irrelevant, since they all are official goverment sites, they speak clearly for the uses of the languages in Macedonia. (wich wos the point of the post of User:Fatmanonthehorse) Furthermore we dont talk just for -any municipality- we happen to talk for the capital city of Macedonia, the political and cultural center wich is emblematic, and reflects the whole state in som manner. Thank you for explaining me the articles in your language, even if a question remains why on one site is written The Skopje and on the other just Skopje. There is still no IPA of this nominee. As i sad before all this suggests the local unofficial character of this nomination.

I corrected the Roman name Scupi, from wich the name Skopje derives wich wos written in bold, i think is a mistake since there is no apparent need of using bold there, but i see that someone re-corrected it and now is written in bold again, i would like to hear the reason for this. Best regards Alexander Mak 16:17, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Take a look at Kiev, the capital city of Ukraine (which has only one official language at national level [13]) mentions both the Ukrainian and the Russian names in the lead. Why should the capital city of Macedonia (which has two official languages at national level [14]) not include the name in both official languages of the state (it would be like not including the Swedish name at Helsinki, the German name at Brussels or the Italian name at Berne). Further information: Russians in Ukraine are 17%, Albanians in Macedonia are 25%. I think what ought to be done is obvious. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.227.134.30 (talk) 17:52, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

You are wrong, the Kiev article has the name of the city in English, Ukranian, and Latin transliteration of Ukranian. There is no Russian, just as there should be no Albanian here. Fatmanonthehorse 20:04, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Yes there is Russian. Look closer. ForeignerFromTheEast 20:21, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Albanian is an official language per the Ohrid Agreement. Outright racism is a bad practice. Niko Silver 20:28, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Good, it's nice the way it is now (English and Macedonian), please leave it this way for the next centry or so. —Preceding unsigned comment added by E nesovski (talk • contribs) 20:58, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] further blocks

I've again blocked three more contributors for edit-warring on this article. I'll continue doing so if necessary. I will not protect the article instead, as it is badly in need of improvement in other ways. Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:57, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Etymology again

Re. Jingiby's edit [15]: While I am personally quite skeptical, as a linguist, about the etymology linking Skopje to Greek skopiá, that etymology was sourced and previously discussed, so it shouldn't just be removed without even a comment or an edit summary. Plus, the other etymology Jingiby introduced instead (from "Paeonian") is even more dubious, the web page cited is certainly not a reliable source. From all I know, virtually nothing is known about Paeonian so that etymology may be not more than mere speculation; I'd ask for a serious linguistic reference to convince me otherwise. Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:13, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] That weblink

I'm with those who are in favour of removing the double (Macedonian/Albanian) weblink to the city official website. The purpose of the link is not to make a statement about the city's linguistic situation, but simply to inform the reader where the city's website is. It's there, it's not two sites, it's a single site, so we need only one link. The main page of the site is in Macedonian; whoever wants to read it in Albanian will quickly find the language icon on the main page. I sure wish people would stop overloading even the most trivial issues with their national POV obsessions.

At the same time, I also remind everybody (both sides!) that the warning against lame revert wars on this page still holds. Fut.Perf. ☼ 05:41, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

But do we agree that Albanian is official in Skopje? ForeignerFromTheEast 06:11, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

I don't know, honestly. From what I've gathered it's a question of the Ohrid Agreement mandating that it should be, but authorities having been sluggish in implementing it; so what's the status of a not-yet-quite-implemented agreement? Is it law? I don't know. But it seems hardly relevant to the issue of telling our readers where to find the city's website. Fut.Perf. ☼ 07:03, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Anyway, since the purpose of the link is primarily to give information to our international readers, not the locals (they know their city, they don't need to look up Wikipedia about it), wouldn't it be the best to just link to the English version right away? Fut.Perf. ☼ 07:40, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

I think that the Ohrid Agreement[16] has been stated too many times than necessary in this discussion. Than again the Ohrid Agreement states clear:

6.4. The official language throughout Macedonia and in the international relations of Macedonia is the Macedonian language.

I read above "authorities having been sluggish in implementing it". How can you imlement a language, you will force your citizens to learn it? Just because of this last minute agreement, as last rsource to stop the blood spreading and the ethcnical clensing of the Macedonians by the hand of the Albanian terrorists of the "libertion army".[17] A piece of paper wont change the facts. Fact is that in Skopje or in Macedonia, Albanian language is very far from beeing an official language. I have posted dozens of Official Macedonian Govenmet links that were just in Macedonian, English and French. Albanian official language in Skopje, seems a joke. I invite you all to go there and ask the citizens the name of the city you are in, or just ask for information in this language, see in how many shops you will be able to buy something communicating in this language and how many people will be able to understand or to respond?

Mor than eight person out of ten will not be able to understand you, and there will barely be any person that will tell you that the name of the city is Schup or whatever this endonym is.

This is not an official language. Best regards, Alexander Makedon 13:14, 12 October 2007 (UTC)