Template talk:Skiptotoctalk

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This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Template:Skiptotoctalk page.
Original discussion: [1] --cesarb

Contents

[edit] Too many boxes

And so, the problem of too many boxes was "solved" by adding another box... gah – Gurch 20:12, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Ironic, no? EVula 17:29, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
Yeah, but good work though. Michaelas10 (T|C) 20:02, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

I've added the template Click to the picture, that way when people click the arrow they'll also go down the the table of contents.--Daniel()Folsom T|C|U 05:33, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] div id=toc

Please see User_talk:Kingboyk#id.3D.22toc.22... there may be an issue with something relating to this template. I am hazy on the details and am only carrying the message. ++Lar: t/c 17:48, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] A confession

“ To help in these kinds of situations, I've just created a new template: {{skiptotoctalk}}, to be added to the top of a talk page which has too many boilerplate pastel boxes. It adds another pastel box with a link to quickly skip over the following boxes, landing at the TOC. --cesarb 03:15, 13 August 2006 (UTC) ”

I would like to make a confession. I originally created this template as a silly joke, in the style of {{toomanyboxes}}, as a sort of comment on Template madness. I expected people to have a small chuckle and send it directly to TfD. I never expected people to actually use it. I never expected people to actually like it (to the point of giving me a barnstar!).

I decided to make this more clear (looks like I was too subtle originally) after noticing that my silly joke template is spreading to other wikipedias. Unfortunately, it's out of my hands now; being originally a joke template is not a valid TfD reason for deletion, and other people do seem to want this template or something like it. --cesarb 02:01, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Recent edits

Firstly, substing the template just creates even more talk page cuft. Secondly, a bunch of uneeded whitespace was introduced. Can't see a rationale for either of these, so reverting. Chris Cunningham 09:57, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

I thought substitution was the preferred way to use most templates. See Wikipedia:Template substitution. And why not just fix the white space problem? I will try to fix that now. --Timeshifter 10:34, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
I fixed the white space problem. --Timeshifter 10:35, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
Huh? of course substitution isn't the preferred way to use templates: that would leave articles completely full of unmanageable crud. Doubly so in this case, where the whole point is that there's too much crud on the page already so the user needs to skip past half of it. The template substitution page is a guideline to which templates should be substituted, and this page isn't listed there.
I'm reverting this again. Substitution is most certainly not preferred for general talk tags. Chris Cunningham 11:52, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
I don't care either way. I left a request for other opinions at Wikipedia talk:Template substitution. It is not a problem, though, to skip past the substituted code. There are edit buttons for each talk section. The crud is usually concentrated at the top of talk pages. I thought though that substitution lowered the server loads. I keep seeing server slowdown messages. You know, the ones about a watchlist being behind so many seconds or minutes.--Timeshifter 13:01, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
The template substitution page goes so far as to link to WP:PERF in its goal to convince people not to go substing templates for the hell of it, actually. Chris Cunningham 13:03, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
I knew of that page. But then there is Wikipedia:Template substitution. --Timeshifter 13:22, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
Are you even reading the things you're linking to? Wikipedia:Template substitution#Benefits of substitution links to WP:PERF. Chris Cunningham 14:17, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

(unindent). Are YOU even reading what you link to? Here is part of that section:

  • Substituting en masse may speed up the site, though the amount and significance of this is the subject of frequent debate. Every time a page is modified, the server must get text from a separate page for every template used. Although each individual template has little effect, the vast number of templates used on Wikipedia is one factor affecting server load and article load times. Chief Technical Officer Brion Vibber (who "maintain[s] overall responsibility for all technical functions of the Foundation, including both hardware and software") has said: "'Policy' should not really concern itself with server load except in the most extreme of cases; keeping things tuned to provide what the user base needs is our job." (See Wikipedia:Don't worry about performance.)
See Wikipedia:Transclusion costs and benefits for further details.--Timeshifter 15:44, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Hidden note in substituted template

I can't get a hidden note to show up correctly in the code in a substituted template.

Please look at my edits in the history of the template: Template:Skiptotoctalk

I was trying to get this note to show up only at the code level after substitution:

Above wiki code created with {{subst:Skiptotoctalk}}

I kept having unwanted text or characters showing up at the visible level after substitution. Or there was a "template loop" message, or something similar, at the hidden level.

I tried no-include tags, hidden comment tags, etc.. Nothing worked correctly when I tried substituting it into a page.

Try it in any template or test template. Then try the substituted template in a sandbox and see if it shows up correctly at both the visible and hidden levels. It is essential to try out the substitution in order to see the problems show up.

This hidden note would be useful for others who want to duplicate the latest version of the template elsewhere. This would encourage more people to substitute templates, too.--Timeshifter 10:39, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

We shouldn't be encouraging people to substitute templates in hidden comments. On the rare occasions where substing is actually useful, such as in template:afd, you can do it by using bold error messages when non-substed. Chris Cunningham 11:53, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
There is a long list of required or suggested substitutions at Wikipedia:Template substitution. So it is not "rare" that substitution is useful. People seeing substituted code will not see an error message. Only the person trying to use a non-substituted template might see one. So people need an easy way to copy the template elsewhere without having to copy the crud. And they need to use the latest version of the template, not an old substituted version.--Timeshifter 13:07, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
Maybe you thought I linked to template:afd for fun, but try including that template in a page without substing it and see what you get. Chris Cunningham 14:23, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
OK, I believe you about that, but you missed my other point. Please reread what I wrote. --Timeshifter 15:42, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Add an explanation on template page

Can we add a simple explanation on the template page?

It only needs to say (if this is right) that the template should be placed at the top of a talk page with many boxes, what it does, and possibly suggest a number of boxes/height (e.g. a 800x600 screen browser's full page) that qualifies the page as one that should have this template. Should we get consensus on these ideas first, and should they be drafted first?

Thanks very much, Drum guy (talk) 23:20, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Done :) Any improvements on wording are welcome. Chris Cunningham (talk) 23:29, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
Thanks (I have done - a little)! Very speedy, and what an amazing hat you have! Drum guy (talk) 01:01, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
Noel Edmonds wore an identical one once on Deal or No Deal. No word of a lie. Anyway, glad to be of service :) Chris Cunningham (talk) 01:40, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Redesign

I've given it a slight redesign, modelled on the 'skip to gallery' box on WP:Userbox - which looks like the following:

Skip to Userbox gallery

Thanks, Drum guy (talk) 20:53, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Well, now modelled on this: (with the arrow clickable using {{click-inline}})
    Skip to Userbox gallery
Drum guy (talk) 21:23, 10 April 2008 (UTC)


I should point out that another larger, more spacious design is also possible, but I feel it takes up too much room, and wouldn't want it to replace the current one (it could be made into an option like "large=yes" by clever people, or made into a new template:
Skip to table of contents
Just thought you'd like too see. I reckoned that as the arrow is quite large compared to the text, having two would be garish. Many thanks, Drum guy (talk) 00:00, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Gah...that doesn't look pretty, IMO. The plain text one was/is fine. Probably better to advertise these sorts of changes too, before making them. dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 08:43, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

I like it how it looks now. I'm baffled by how many edits this template gets considering that its purpose is pretty basic compared to other templates :) Gary King (talk) 07:00, 15 April 2008 (UTC)