Talk:Skin (Japanese band)

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[edit] Skin vs. S.K.I.N.

Shouldn't it be renamed to S.K.I.N.? jd 13:49, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

I suggest to wait until the meaning of this supposed acronym is disclosed to the public. Right now, "S.K.I.N." is merely a stylized variant of "Skin", without anything else to it, which is not compliant with WP:MOS-TM. Since news on the project seem to surface on a daily basis, I don't think it will be long until we have more clarity on this issue. - Cyrus XIII 14:54, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
It seems to be confirmed as S.K.I.N by the teaser trailer on the band members' homepages. Also, Gackt's site used S.K.I.N in the news part of the site. Edit: Logo confirms it http://dears.ne.jp/images/skin/logo.gif (Anonymous 19:39, 10 June 2007)
This does only confirm "S.K.I.N." to be the official typeset, is does not say anything about the name actually being an acronym. - Cyrus XIII 19:59, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
Would the official site be able to confirm this? [1] 66.214.92.60 22:35, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
But the S.K.I.N. official logo was confirm at 11 June in Yoshiki.net already

Since this still comes up in the edit summaries quite a lot, I will explain it again in greater detail: The Wikipedia Manual of Style favors the use of "standard English text formatting and :capitalization rules even if the trademark owner encourages special treatment" (see WP:MOS-TM). While writing acronyms in all-caps is standard English, rendering a regular word (which does not serve as an initialism) in that fashion, isn't. There are examples of band names that are indeed acronyms (i.e. ABBA) but also some that only appeared or were suspected to be (i.e. Kiss). Wikipedia articles have to take a neutral approach towards each of their subjects (see WP:NPOV), hence we do not replicate stylized typography in our articles. Other people's brand management is not our concern. Logos may be mentioned or pictured to illustrate the topic at hand though, which in this case is now done through image in the infobox. - Cyrus XIII 00:11, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Stylized typography or not, it's the bands name. Read the JRock revolution myspace blog regarding S.K.I.N frequently asked questions. As explained there by an official source the bands name is S.K.I.N, not skin. I cannot refer to the myspace blog however, as those links are banned by wikipedia, nevertheless if one were to ignore this information merely because it cannot be sourced then this wiki would be purposely defying the truth. Which is a little pretentious for even "Wikipedia policy". Don't you think? --JinecouO.N.E 07:31, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

You are missing the point. This is not about a lack of sources that confirm the official typeset. Wikipedia just won't reflect it, due to its formatting guidelines, which favor standard English text formatting over stylized typography. If you disagree with this notion, you may always initiate a discussion on the talk pages of the respective guidelines. - Cyrus XIII 10:40, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

And so are you, it's the bands name. If my name was spelt "J.I.N.E.C.O.U" and people spelt it "Jinecou" it would be nevertheless, incorrect. You are over-interperating Wikipedia guidelines in a mechanical way, this article should be a reflection of what is correct, not what Wikipedia formatting guidelines allow under ambigious circumstances.

To quote
"Which is correct, SKIN or S.K.I.N.?
S.K.I.N."

Edit -- As this issue does not look like being resolved easily, I have made an article for S.K.I.N which redirects to this one, therefore anyone who wishes to find the band article by inserting the official name as a keyword will be redirected here, it's a start. Deny this though, and there is something seriously wrong. --JinecouO.N.E 16:25, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Sure, nothing wrong with having such redirects in place, for reader convenience. Though I was under the impression, that I had already created one at S.K.I.N. Anyway, to quote the very same FAQ you previously referred to:
What does S.K.I.N. stand for?
That information is not available. It has not even been confirmed that S.K.I.N. even stands for anything.
Which means that at this point, it could be S.K.I.N., sKiN or [s*k*i*n], it would still be a stylized variant of the regular English word skin. I'm not "over-interpreting" (thanks for assuming good faith), I'm merely applying. Again, if you feel that the Manual of Style got it all wrong, nothing bars you from putting it up for discussion. - Cyrus XIII 00:14, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

I think on this issue, both should be placed on the page. The Korn page has gone through a similar debate, and in the end, typeset was added as a side note. Maybe this should be added to the initial paragraph.--Jacob 17:45, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

I'm not happy with this, under no circumstance should the "Manual of style" be of greater importance than what is right, and what is wrong. For example, under the current circumstances what proves to say that the word "skin" is even pronounced in a standard way? If the bands name was literally spoken "S, K, I, N" then wouldn't the standard english equivalent be an entirely different word?

It is S.K.I.N and not SKIN, as there is a british singer using the name SKIN. If you do not know much about the music industry, DO NOT POST! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 219.90.148.152 (talk) 05:31, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

-- Edit --

I brought the issue up in the discussion page of WP:MOS-TM, as I was kindly inclined towards by Cyrus XIII, and the insight given is to use the style which is more readily used in reputable sources - which was my original argument, this seemingally being S.K.I.N. However, should there be clashing sources with different names being used we are suggested to sway towards using "Skin". Thats where we're at, I don't think the issue needs to go further unless there is a strong evidence to make another case. I wont make any changes towards the main page as not to trigger another edit war, so I therefore wait for a second opinion within the circle of editors of this article. -- JinecouO.N.E 07:33, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

Having had an (admittedly quick) scan of the article and with a working knowledge of the polices, I'd keep it as [[Skin (Janaese band), but include all the names in the inro sentence. Nice and simple, and informative. Chase me ladies, I'm the Cavalry 04:45, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

It doesn't matter what you, or him, consider it to be. It is officialy S.K.I.N, as it was annouced, as is written by Yoshiki from his official websites and is not Skin. Skin can not be used, as another musician goes by that name! Thats why the Japanese version of this article is correct, and what is written here is wrong. You are making up your own "facts" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 219.90.243.22 (talk) 12:49, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Guess what, boys and girls? JRock Revolution is S.K.I.N.'s official site at the moment, and THEY say:
"Q: Which is correct, SKIN or S.K.I.N.?
A: S.K.I.N."
And as for the acronym:
"Q: What does S.K.I.N. stand for?
A: That information is not available. It has not even been confirmed that S.K.I.N. even stands for anything."
Here is the link for all your citation pleasures: http://jrockrevolution.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=71&Itemid=25
Wikipedia formatting rules are no doubt in place for people who abuse capitol letters, but there is about as much going for it saying it is an abbreviation as saying it will never be. However, since the official site records the title being as such, I think it should be honored since it is not an abuse of capitols in favor of personal preference. (Tsukiakari (talk) 02:16, 23 January 2008 (UTC))
I also want to say that as per wikipedia guidelines, images cannot be used in name spaces. Therefore I've recorded the name in the namespace in the format reflected by the logo to preserve the image's intention- this is in NO WAY saying it is one or the other; simply a compromise since images cannot be used there. (Tsukiakari (talk) 02:57, 23 January 2008 (UTC))

[edit] Touring Japan?

I think we should take down that info claiming that they're touring japan in the fall. Miyavi himself is going to be in korea in the fall (http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/art/2007/06/143_5005.html), and yoshiki and gackt have both said in either press releases or interviews that this project is for the international fans and that japan would be last if they even played there at all. We've got some contradicting information at the moment, so I think, until we can find another source confirming any appearances in japan by the band, that I'll take that line out for now. At the moment, the evidence against going to japan is much stronger than the one article in japanese that hardly anyone can read claiming they're going there. If anyone has any info on any shows AFTER the AX one, please share it, because I haven't seen any press releases from yoshiki or anyone else on it yet. (Tsukiakari 06:59, 26 June 2007 (UTC))

I think I found the source for the mix up with the november japan dates- It appears that Yoshiki is having Violet UK perform at the opening for a horror movie in japan that he wrote some music to, and that's happening in october- it's rather close, and the only thing I think it could have been mixed up with. Here's the link talking about the show- http://www.jrockrevolution.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=51&Itemid=98 (72.91.27.241 05:10, 27 June 2007 (UTC))

[edit] Ju-Ken

I just added the source for the Ju-Ken tidbit. My website's editor was at the event and wrote a news post about it for my website.

I don't think Ju-ken is the official member of S.K.I.N.. He just supported Skin as a bassist on June 29. So we should delete him from the members of S.K.I.N. Also, SKIN's official website says nothing about Ju-ken.

Steven

There is no official page of SKIN. That one page is just a nicely done fan-website.

Steven 15:58, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Skin-online.net is NOT the official website!
Jrock Revolution website : "As the band is lacking a permanent bassist, Gackt brought along a member of his own back up band, Gacktjob, named Ju-Ken."
So Ju-Ken seems to be a support member?
Jrock Revolution makes many mistakes, so I guess we have to wait and see what will happen... - 19:44, 2 July 2007

[edit] Origin

Skin's origin is currently Japan, which is obvious, as all members are Japanese. However, the band seems to be basing activity out of Los Angeles, Yoshiki is a resident of Los Angeles and the initial announcment and debut were made in the United States. Maybe the United States should be labelled as the "Origin"

Also, Yoshiki's MySpace (as it does seeme to REALLY be his) speaks of meetings with the members in Los Angeles, rather than Japan. Any thoughts?--Jacob 12:57, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

The template manual suggests to list the founding city of the given group, I guess we should go with L.A. then. - Cyrus XIII 00:55, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

You should not write things as facts, for which there is no official source! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 219.90.148.152 (talk) 05:33, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit]  ?

The second half of the top paragraph makes no sense. Can someone explain to me what that means or change it so it's understandable? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 12.217.69.159 (talk) 23:42, August 23, 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Page fully protected

... due to edit warring over what is now obviously a content dispute. Guys, can you work out the differences here, please, reach some consensus and get back to me (or WP:RPP when you'd like to have protection lifted. But for now, you need to work this one through - Alison ☺ 07:50, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Given what happened at Wikipedia:Requests for protection, as well as on several other pages, [2] [3] [4][5] would you agree to revert the page to semi-protected, should the previous, IP based editor fail to make a genuine attempt at discussing on this talk page within the next 24 hours? - Cyrus XIII 08:50, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fandom

Stop writing fandom as facts, there is no source that this is a "supergroup".

The bands name is S.K.I.N, as there is already a singer using the name SKIN.

The history section was poorly written, it has been re-written with the same information in a readable manner.

Do not post "fandom" as facts.

Furthermore, there is an official website for S.K.I.N, it has been added to the links section.

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 219.90.148.152 (talk) 05:46, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
The Skin promotional video on Yoshiki's site will make a nice addition to the Skin page, it will be indisputably added to the External links section. I have also incorporated the attendance noting and the FAQ added to the JRR official site. Thank you for making those constructive contributions.
None of the reversions to your edits have been done out of "fandom", as I know that I and another editor are hardly "fans" of the band, and while we both may have mild interest in where the band goes, we are both established and reliable editors on Wikipedia. Editors to this page who are registered and contribute constructively do not add "fandom as facts", as that is against Wikipedia's policies. If you would simply visit and thoroughly read each policy, all details would be clear, as every reversion is in the scope of the given links. Thank you for utilizing the talk page, it is one step closer to an understanding of both parties' intentions. --Jacob 06:49, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

You, and the few others, have no understanding of the Japanese music scene. This information was taken directly from the Japanese article about S.K.I.N.

How old are you, 13 - 20? Absolute ignorance! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.49.159.159 (talk) 06:58, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Age should not matter when editing Wikipedia, as youth does not imply ignorance, nor does an older age imply a higher knowledge. Please sign your comments on this talk page. See WP:MUSTARD and WP:MOS-JP to understand why stylized typography is not important to Wikipedia. --Jacob 07:08, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

No, age shouldn't be a matter when editing. However if you are immature, are ignorant on a subject, and can not write a readable article, then you should not be editing.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.49.159.159 (talk)

The Japanese version of this article http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/S.K.I.N. is evidence that the information you provide is incorrect!

As I believe I have told you before, the Japanese Wikipedia has different standards for capitalization. The English Wikipedia has the most developed set of policies (especially pertaining to roman alphabet-based languages). In Japan, the concept of capitalization (while understood I'm sure) is not something used every day. The Japanese characters (as I assume you know) have no capital forms. I think I have also mentioned that you should sign your comments with two dashes (-) and four tildes (~). --Jacob 07:25, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

The bands name is S.K.I.N Yoshiki states that himself from his own webpage!! The band is a Visual Kei band, as stated on the Japanese article. Yet I guess you know better than the person who formed the band, and more about the Japanese music scene than the Japaense people, and those that actually live in Japan and speak Japanese.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.49.159.159 (talk)

Got news for you: another Wiki is NOT a reliable source. Pairadox 07:37, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Got news for you: when the information provided is taken directly from the person that formed the band, it is a reliable source!. Check Yoshiki's website! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.49.159.159 (talk) 07:45, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Look, nobody is questioning that that is indeed how the band will typeset the name. The issue here is policy, not what a musician has printed on their site. Many Japanese artists print their song titles in capital letters, this does not mean Wikipedia will list them that way as well. There are Japanese bands out there who include large amounts of symbols and odd characters in their name, but since it does not index well, it is not used. Unless the band name is pronounced "Ess-Kay-Aye-En" (that's as simple of a phonetic spelling as I can come up wit), there is no reason to use aesthetic little periods and capital letters. There is nothing on this page that is "licensed by" Skin, this page is not run by "Yoshiki". I have explained to you why the Japanese page differs from the English page, and if you do not understand that, then you need to do some research into differences about Japanese and English languages, and the role they play in Wikipedia policies. If you would like a Wiki site that uses stylized typography that your beloved Yoshiki prefers, there are many options out there for free and easy home-made wiki sites. Please leave the Wikimedia projects if you feel all you can do is disrupt a single article anonymously. --Jacob 16:29, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

I support the use of the term supergroup. JAME labels the band as a "super band" which has the same meaning. The term isn't degrading in any way, and has a very positive meaning to it, so I'm not sure why there is an objection to its use (All the members have been in sucessful bands before so it meets the definition clearly). I also support eventually including the term visual kei - but we don't have a resource that says the band is a visual kei band and we don't want to make assumptions. If we have official published information that states they are a visual kei band, then we can include it. Japanese wiki doesn't count as a source, but a newspaper or magazine article would. Denaar 19:28, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Japanese article has links to clear everything up. but I guess only a few of you speak Japanese!

This is directed at the anonymous contributor: First of all, I would have posted this in a more discreet fashion on your own talk page. But given that your IP address varies and you still have not gotten around to register a Wikipedia account of your own (like you still do not sign your messages, even though it is requested and explained clearly in the little box at the top of this page), I will just do it here.

Even with your earlier presumptions regarding the age of some of our editors in mind, I am not going to reply in kind and make any assumptions on the average understanding of collaborative Internet projects among the plus thirty demographic. Yet one has to wonder whether you, as an individual person, have a clear grasp of what you have been doing here, or more importantly, how you have been doing it.

Given its obviously extensive scale, work on Wikipedia is regulated by several standards. Disputes are resolved by reaching consensus through discussion (see Wikipedia:Consensus). Also note that Wikipedia makes no attempt at presenting the "truth", but rather information that is verifiable through reliable sources (Wikipedia:Verifiability/Wikipedia:Reliable sources).

Among the more binding of our standards (we call those "policies", as opposed to "guidelines") is the three-revert rule (Wikipedia:Three-revert rule), which you saw fit to break, even after it had been pointed out to you. Also, despite repeated requests by several editors to offer a detailed explanation of your concerns on this talk page, you did not resort to use it until the article was locked from editing.

On this page, the overall tone of your writing has been rather annoyed and dismissive, if not downright rude, coupled with several personal attacks directed towards other participants in this discussion (Wikipedia:Civility/Wikipedia:No personal attacks). It is also quite confusing how your changes to the article are ostensibly intended to counter unchecked fandom, yet insist on the use of a stylized typeset, in an independent, descriptive publication (Wikipedia:Manual of Style (trademarks)). You have also accused other editors of adding information to the article without "proof" or "evidence", yet strangely enough, your edits little by little removed references from the article, until they were all gone.

Wikipedia has a very open-minded and welcoming community (Wikipedia:Please do not bite the newcomers), yet at this point, it hopefully does not come as much of a surprise, that the patience generally directed towards newcomers has all but been exhausted by your previous conduct. What does that mean? Well, ultimately - and I am writing this with all aforementioned policies and guidelines firmly in mind - you will either respect the principles of this project and more importantly, its editors or leave. - Cyrus XIII 00:51, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

As was the case with the article about Visual Kei, You never provide any sources for your arguments, while there is plenty of evidence to prove you are wrong Cyrus XIII. Jun kaneko 05:38, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

As one of the editors who chose between the two versions, I can tell you it was an easy decision. Between two articles with virtually the same content (except for the cap/punct of the name, a non-issue for me), I chose the one that used sources and followed WP:MOS, not the one that appeared to favor a particular member of the group by placing his name first and using his website as a Primary source and link. Pairadox 10:18, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Can you tell me where the source is, to say 15,000 fans were at the concert? Jun kaneko 05:43, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fools Mate

Recent Fools Mate special confirms the following. http://www.fools-mate.co.jp/pc/yoyaku/is01.html

Fools Mate VOL.311, with Yoshiki also confirms the same information.

1. The bands name is S.K.I.N, but pronounced as Skin.

2. The band is a Supergroup.

3. The band is classified as Visual Kei rock.

4. Japanese spelling of the bands name is スキン (su-kin)

This article is somewhat incorrect, as others have said, and needs to be updated. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.49.150.146 (talk) 00:52, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

EDIT: It is also strange, that you say the Japanese version of this article is nothing to go by, but at the same time, accept its information that 15,000 were at the concert! This magazine also confirms that an official bass player will be announced soon.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.49.150.146 (talk)

A link to that issue http://www.fools-mate.co.jp/i/vol311.html Jun kaneko 02:35, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for providing a reference (Fools Mate VOL.311). The article should be amended to include "supergroup" and "visual kei" now. I see nothing wrong with a request to put Skin (written S.K.I.N) or some such in the article either - but the title of the article should be Skin, and the remaining mentions of the name should remain Skin - which is wikipedia's standards, nothing personal against the band. Denaar 02:56, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
In what way is Skin visual kei? What are their current looks. I am only asking because I have not seen them as a band, I have no experience with them. Are they calling themselves a visual kei band, or that they all come from visual kei background? --Jacob Talk 04:07, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
There are videos up of the band on you tube, as well as a long report (I'm not sure if it was a news report) from behind the scences where they show their stage outfits. I have some pictures as well but I'm not sure if I should link to them since they are another fans and not mine. I would certainly call them Visual Kei based on looks, but that is a really bad way to decide. I've learned the best way to know is to see what the band/magazines say, because there are a bunch of "soft kei" bands that are just normal-looking people with nice clothing. Denaar 14:32, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Unprotect

This article needs to be reverted back to the former revision, and updated to include the new information provided by FOOLS MATE magazine. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jun kaneko (talk • contribs)

Request denied, you must show consensus then request unprotection for content changes. --ST47Talk·Desk 15:24, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Look in the section "Fools Mate" there is consensus. Jun kaneko 05:45, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

{{editprotected}}

Please put the editprotected tag immediately beside your request. ST47 provided a link to WP:RFPP, which is the correct way to request unprotection. — Carl (CBM · talk) 01:12, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Edit request

{{editprotected}} Change 1 The followng references need to be removed. (2) because it is a dead link. (4) and (5) because these references do not provide any information to the article.

Change 2 The opening sentence needs to be changed to "S.K.I.N is a visual kei superband, formed in May 2007, Los Angeles, California. The band has announced that an album will be released in 2008." (these references need to be added here http://www.fools-mate.co.jp/pc/yoyaku/is01.html and http://www.jmusicamerica.com/us/article.php?id=2351)

Change 3 The history section needs to be changed to the following.

"In August, 2006, former X Japan drummer Yoshiki Hayashi, announced at US anime convention Otakon that he would start a band with Japanese singer Gackt (ex-Malice Mizer). (this reference http://www.jmusiceuropa.com/uk/article.php?id=88 added here)
In Decemeber, 2006, it was reported that Sugizo (ex-Luna Sea) would be the third official member.
In May 25, 2007, the bands name was officially announced as S.K.I.N, along with a fourth member, Miyavi (ex-Dué le Quartz).
The band gave its debut performance on June 29, 2007, at an Anime Expo in Long Beach, California."

Change 4 The "skin promotinal clip in external links needs to be replaced with the offical website http://www.yoshiki.net/jp/flv/skin_logo.html which links to that.

Change 5 The genre in background information needs to be replaced with visual kei


Please sign your posts and put them at the end of the talk page. These sorts of canges aren't appropriate while the page is protected. Find consensus to resolve whatever disagreement led to protection and then request unprotection at WP:RFPP. — Carl (CBM · talk) 20:52, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Edit Request

{{editprotected}}There have been many valid points made as to why the band title on the page should be changed to it's proper form, which is S.K.I.N. This is a fact which has been supported on EVERYTHING officially linked to the band. To write the bands name in any other form is just improper and unprofessional. The band members themselves are the ONLY ones who have the right to determine the proper form for their name. AkewataruAurora 02:45, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

I agree with AkewataruAurora. 122.49.161.126 13:55, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
Have you read the previous discussion, along with the relevant part of the Wikipedia Manual of Style (Wikipedia:Manual of Style (trademarks))? - Cyrus XIII 02:49, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
This sort of change is not what editprotected requests are for. To get the article renamed you will have to find consensus for the change. It will not be renamed while it is protected. — Carl (CBM · talk) 14:19, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Unprotected

I'm taking a chance and unprotecting this article, given the conversations here. Note that any further revert-warring and sock-puppetry and the protection will be immediately re-applied - Alison ❤ 20:00, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] 15.000 people?

does anyone have a source about the band gave its debut performance in front of an audience of 15000 people? Because I listened only around 6000 http://www.ahsforum.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1141853 --200.111.61.131 (talk) 19:38, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

There were not 15k people at that concert. I believe you're right that it was only around 6k. The number's not in the S.K.I.N. FAQ over at JRR, but I'm pretty sure I remember seeing a number given over at skin-online.net and that's as good as official since it's run by the same staff as JRR. Try looking through the forum over there to see if you can find a number, or PM one of the JRR/S-O mods for help. :) (Tsukiakari (talk) 02:26, 23 January 2008 (UTC))