Talk:Ska

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Ska is within the scope of WikiProject Music genres, a user driven attempt to clean up and standardise music genre articles on Wikipedia. Please visit the project guidelines page for ideas on how to structure a genre article and help us assess and improve genre articles to good and 1.0 standards.
Ska was a good article, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these are addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.

Delisted version: November 8, 2006


Contents

[edit] 2002 Cleanup

What a lot of jerking around I just did between scat singing, mouth music, ska, and skat. Please see the relevant talk pages for further notes on what I have done, but basically I thought there was a lot of excellent information, links, history, etc, that was not quite in the right places, so I moved it. I hope I haven't trodden too hard on anyone's toes, but it seemed worth the effort to me, and remember, it can always be reverted, although I'd suggest yelling at me ikn the various talk pages first. Ortolan88 04:35 Dec 30, 2002 (UTC)

[edit] First Jamaican music

I removed the patently false claim that ska was the first jamaican music. There were natives there for centures before recorded history, and they surely had music, and the article itself later mentioned mento, a tradition folk music that predates ska by decades.

I also removed this because it was out of place and I couldn't quite understand it. Something very similar could be appropriate, but I just didn't get this:

It is reported that the phrase "Skavoovie" was a greeting used by "Clue J," whenever greeting the Skatalites and Coxsone Dodd. Cluett Johnson, better known as Clue J. Johnson, or "Clue J" was the bassist and leader of "Clue J and the Blues Blasters." He lead that late 1950s Jamaican musical group. That music group spawned some of the greatest musicians of the ska era (1962-1966). Tuf-Kat 07:17 17 May 2003 (UTC)

[edit] The Wailers

I guess I'm having some problems with this... why do people insist on referring to the Wailers (the original name of the band) as Bob Marley AND the Wailers? Equally frustrating is the fact that the Wailers redirects to Bob Marley. I guess we've forgotten about Peter Tosh and Bunny Livingston. vudu 16:05, 7 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Because on many record jakets it is called just that

[edit] Sublime

Is Sublime an important 90's ska band? Should it be included as an example? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 47.234.0.52 (talk • contribs) 5 February 2004

Whenever I go to a poster site or whatever and do the generic search of "ska", Sublime is one or two bands that usually shows up. I'd say it's pretty well known to include. I'm not so sure about most of these other bands under the Third Wave Ska category, though. Half of them don't even have pages. If we're going to include them, they should be or have done something worthy of note. Just because a band 'brings the mosh' or 'rocks hardcore' is no reason to include it in an encyclopedic article. Which of these can we dump to shorten the list? Mr. Internet 14:05, Apr 19, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] standardization

I just noticed, upon visiting the Jazz page, how erratic standardization for EVERYTHING is. Someone ought to add that little table to the right of this page. Lockeownzj00 01:53, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Ska (band)

ska is the best third wave ska band ever, it should be mentioned. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.112.58.139 (talk • contribs) 26 January 2005

[edit] Reorganization

I changed around this page, hardly deleted anything, just rearranged sections under headings so that the different waves could be easily seen and separate. falcolombardi87 22 April 2005

[edit] Linking to related topics

I never like seeing See Also sections in an entry. Is there some place we can include these references in the article's main body? Some of the links in the list are also linked elsewhere (e.g., skinhead, Jamaica). Can these be removed entirely? Mr. Internet 04:10, Apr 19, 2005 (UTC)

I agree that the 'See Also' section could be removed and the links put somewhere else in the article. It might also be worthwhile to remove the 'Ska Musicians of Note' section and add all the bands to the ska groups category - Category:Ska groups.falcolombardi87 23 April 2005

I removed the See Also section as every link contained within was somewhere else on the page. I don't mind adding all the "Musicians of Note" to the category page, but I am unclear on how to do so. Mr. Internet 21:38, Apr 23, 2005 (UTC)

OK cool, editing categories is quite easy. At the moment there is a category called Ska groups which holds a few ska bands and a sub category for third wave ska groups (It might be worthwhile to add subcategories for first wave and second wave bands, but then that wouldn't leave any bands in the ska groups category if you see what I mean). To access it just search for Category:Ska groups.

To add a page/band to a category just add a phrase like this at the bottom of the band page using the edit section: [[Category:Ska groups]] will add the page/band to the Ska groups category while putting [[Category:Third wave ska groups]] at the bottom will add the page/band to the third wave subcategory. The category link will appear at the bottom after saving the page, but not in preview.

To create a subcategory you must create a category page by creating a page as normal (Category pages always start with Category: then the page name) or by adding a category phrase at the bottom of a band page which I think should automatically create the category. Then edit the page and put the phrase [[Category:Ska groups]] and this will create a subcategory within Ska groups. In this way you can create a network of categories.

Hope this explains, I know it's long winded. falcolombardi87 16:37, Apr 24, 2005 (UTC)

I've created three more categories for 1st, second and fourth wave. I suppose it's up to people to put the relevant bands in the correct categories then they can be removed from the ska page and a link created maybe.falcolombardi87 17:08, Apr 24, 2005 (UTC)

I've gone through both the first and second wave lists, adding the category tag to any group that actually had a page. I will rest up before I do the third wave pages, so I can plow through the utter monotony in one fell swoop. As for editing the lists once all the categorization is done, I think the best thing to do would be list all artists listed on the page under each wave's heading, and include a link to a "more complete listing" on the category page, where people can throw on all the bands they wish. Mr. Internet 21:08, Apr 24, 2005 (UTC)

Ok, cool. falcolombardi87 25 Apr 2005

[edit] Fourth Wave?

[edit] Initial Note

Before you Classify the Fourth Wave, remember: "As it stands, the idea of a fourth wave is still speculation, not fact. This counts as original research, and doesn't belong on Wikipedia. See Wikipedia:No original research -Spylab 00:47, 27 September 2006 (UTC)Spylab"

[edit] Discussion

I don't think Christian ska qualifies as a Fourth Wave. Besides the fact that Christian is a lyrical and not a musical classification (there are Christian bands covering all genres, not only or primarily ska), it's nowhere near widespread enough to warrant it being labeled the "Fourth Wave". Each wave of ska, as I see it, is accompanied by a substantial change in the musical style coupled with a boom in popularity. Since neither of these have happened with Christian ska, or at all since the Third Wave, I think the Fourth Wave section should be removed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mouseclicker (talk • contribs) 27 April 2005

I can agree with that. Mr. Internet 04:31, Apr 28, 2005 (UTC)
Yeah, I know what you mean. I think it should at least be given a mention though, even if it's just 1 or 2 sentences - some recognize it as a wave, and the article should be representative of all things ska. You could remove the heading and just fit it in somewhere.falcolombardi87 19:49, Apr 28, 2005 (UTC)
I like the changes that have been made regarding Christian ska. But I took out a sentence that didn't describe the subject accurately and added a few words on Five Iron Frenzy. falcolombardi87 14:25, Apr 30, 2005 (UTC)
If Christian ska is considerd a forth wave, then what about the crack rock steady ska? It was a lot more invateiv* then Christian ska and was third wave, if not completely parrerl*

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.185.153.169 (talk • contribs) 17 February 2006

I think there needs to be some mention of the band The Israelites, who were the first Christian ska band, formed back in 1989. Although their style is based on the Jamaican model of the 1960's. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.232.126.142 (talk • contribs) 27 March 2006

Again, a section for the alleged fourth wave of ska has been added. Should we leave it/take it out? The paragraph directly above the section contradicts it too - so it needs sorting out. falcolombardi87 15:09, Jun 30, 2005 (UTC)

Hi, I wrote the fourth wave, and I think it's fairly valid. I mean there has been a huge surge of ska-emo-screamo fusion bands popping up all over the place. I figured the trend needed to b recorded. What do you think needs to be sorted out, because a good sorting probably wouldn't be useless. ryman64b 24:00, Jul 3, 2005 (UTC)
I agree with Ryan but its more of a prediction than fact since a majority of ska that is coming out now is still in the third wave rather than the fourth. It might not become true but it would definatly be a branch of ska.deusexomega 23:00, Jul 3, 2005 (UTC)
We had this conversation before (see above), and it does need sorting out. A compromise could be to say that the fourth wave argument is gaining poularity, but is not yet fully recognised. If this is going to be in the article, then there should also be the mention that some believe the fourth wave to be the Christianisation of ska - that's what this article used to say. Agree/disagree? falcolombardi87 19:28, July 5, 2005 (UTC)
I don't think anything should be labeled "fourth wave" yet, especially not while a bunch of third wave ska bands are still quite popular and releasing albums. I personally haven't noticed a sudden boom of "emo/screamo" ska bands, and the ones I have heard are definitely close enough to third wave to be classified as such. Look, the fourth wave won't come until we have Top 10 ska hits again- when that happens, we can all come here and agree that we're in the fourth wave. Until then, let's remove any fourth wave talk. Mouseclicker 5 July 2005 22:14 (UTC)
Agreed. It seems that this is more of a sub-movement in the emo/screamo genre than an actual "Fourth Wave" of ska. Also, if the section does stay in, it really needs to be cleaned up. ZombiesAhoy 7 July 2005 05:16 (UTC)
It does kind of seem as if some people are trying to force the 4th Wave. I think it should be given a mention, but only to say that a minority believe it to be true for whatever reason. I really can't see any truth in the description of the 4th Wave and there aren't even any bands that are named at the bottom in 'Ska Musicians of Note', which shows that it is hardly popular. falcolombardi87 11:42, July 7, 2005 (UTC)

For that section to have any validity it needs at least one or two examples. I also cleaned it up a bit. Lockeownzj00 8 July 2005 17:47 (UTC)

Yeah, cool, at least people won't think that everyone agrees with the 4th wave now. falcolombardi87 21:13, July 8, 2005 (UTC)
As founder of the 4th wave page I'm quite happy with the results! user:Ryman64bRyman64b 24:33, July 10, 2005 (UTC)

I really can't see how LTJ and Streetlight Manifesto are any different to any other Third Wave groups. They're definitely not emo, which is what the description suggests. I don't really get it. I know they've evolved soundwise, but all bands do. falcolombardi87 15:52, July 13, 2005 (UTC)

i think people are just eager to 'be a part' of something, that is, the fourth wave... they're so eager, they're imagining it where it does not exist. People, ska is still walking from the third wave, when the third wave dies, can there be a chance for a fourth.

—Preceding unsigned comment added by Sonofaresiii (talk • contribs) 17 January 2006

My personal view of what fourth wave ska is going to sound like is more of a european soudning ska. In my eyes streetlight manifesto and bandits of the acoustic revolution are 4th wave ska and cannot be catgorized as third, second or first wave.

  • I again deleted the Fourth Wave Ska section after waiting to see if anyone would add any external references to prove that it is an acknowledged term. As it stands, the idea of a fourth wave is still speculation, not fact. This counts as original research, and doesn't belong on Wikipedia. See Wikipedia:No original research -Spylab 00:47, 27 September 2006 (UTC)Spylab

I have to agree with the first and second to last opinions. Christian Ska cannot be a wave, as the style of play stays the same. As for BotAR and Streetlight, they are opening the possibility of a fourth wave, sounding very Eastern European.

Begin Little tinyfish response

Waves are decided by location and height in popularity. You can't say something is a wave until it declines in popularity, so to say that a fourth wave is emerging...we don't know that, because there is nothing happening.
1st Wave - 60s. Located in Jamaica
2nd Wave - Late 70s-Early 80s. Located in Britain.
3rd Wave - Mid-90s...possibly through mid 2000s. Located in America.
4th Wave - Possibilities exist, though I would say that Christian ska rose and fell with the third wave, definitively marking them as third wave. What about the recent rise in popularity in ska in Russia? That'd give it a new time period and location? But I'm not going to say because like I said before, you can't say something is a wave until it declines in popularity.
I'm gonna try to find some sources on this.
Also, don't we need sources on this stuff? We can't decide what is a wave and what is not..legitimate sources do.

End Little tinyfish response, December 26, 2006

I definitley agree with little tinyfish. notice how every wave of ska is distinct from the last one? as little tinyfish pointed out, each wave took place in a distinctly different time period and in different countries (continents even). Each wave also seemed to bring something new to the table. 2 tone sped things up, stripped some of the horns, added an aggressive edge etc. The Third wave brought us ska punk. Until the sound has a drastic change (and I mean drastic, not just a sort-of change) a new wave cannot be justified. Glassbreaker5791 23:00, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

  • Here's my case that 2007 is the year fourth wave got its start:

Its been about 10 years since third wave reached its mainstream height, and when you look at the patterns of the ska waves, it seems to happen about every decade. You have the 60s, late 70s to early 80s, early 80s to late 90s. The big ska bands of the third wave have been getting more active, like reel big fish and the bosstones who did another hometown throw down. You also have newer ska bands going in different directions and being more innovation, like Big D and the Kids Table (whose latest album is a watershed for modern ska) as well as Streetlight Manifesto, Bandits of the Acoustic Revolution, and Bomb the Music Industry. Just tryin to provoke some thought with these ideas. Thursday, March 27, 2008. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.34.94.152 (talk) 00:46, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Messed up history

I am certainly no expert on Ska, but the whole history of this seems messed up to me. There is hardly anything written on the second wave. I would definitely class The Toasters as a second-wave band. There era, sound and attitude all point them out to be such.

There is no mention of Operation Ivy in the history, which seems like a glaring omission. AFAIK, it was them and the Bosstones that kicked off the third wave. I think not enough emphasis is placed on the fact that third wave is essentially a narrowing of the ska sound into a hybrid of ska and pop-punk (No Doubt etc.), and ska and hardcore (Operation Ivy, Catch 22 etc.). Forget all that rubbish about it being influenced by jazz.

Too much is written on the so-called "fourth wave" of Ska, which has not actually happened yet. I think people are confusing hardcore sounding third-wave bands, and punk bands with horns, to be something they're not. The bands listed there are definitely not emo/screamo influenced.

-- Movint 07/14/2005

Yeah, I agree, apart from the The Toasters are a Third Wave band IMO. Add to the article. falcolombardi87 19:00, July 14, 2005 (UTC)

Op Ivy ought to be included, certainly, but classifying third wave as only ska-core or ska and pop-punk hybrids is far too limiting. re: jazz, bands like Easy Big Fella and the Scofflaws were far closer to jazz-influenced music than to hardcore or pop-punk. I might even say there was a trend toward a small rockabilly influence with a band like Lucky 7. (SaraFist, 08 March 06)

Wait, why are The Toasters not credited with esentially creating the ska phenomenon in the US with the 3rd wave? Keep in mind this band was making records while Dickey Barret, Gwen Stephani, Aaron Barret, Brad Nowell and Jason Navarro were still smoking in the bathrooms at school!! C'mon, NYC ska founded in 1981, so this band is starting in America when no other prominent ska bands were coming out of the states, and when the Specials, The Beat, Madness, etc are still around. DJ Citizen D

[edit] First use of word

To note [1] and [2] where the OED/BBC are looking to see if "ska" was used before 1964. --Henrygb 21:48, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

See my comment re: Blue Beat, below.—mjb 07:42, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Two Tone

The article suggjests that the second wave was named only for the record lable, but in fact it was named for all the two tone things happening —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lunarsurface (talk • contribs) 28 December 2005

[edit] Infobox

This article needs an infobox of its own, {{reggaebox}} is not quite appropriate. Both {{reggaebox}} and {{jamaicanmusic}} will have to go once said Infobox is up. A Music of Jamaica link should remain in the "Other topics" secion of the new box, though. Circeus 04:02, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Mento and other missing topics

I think it should be mentioned that first wave is a combination of all R&B, jazz and Jamaican mento. Mento was the immidiate predecessor to ska, as its golden age was the 50s in Jamaica. Also, the mention of the two tone suits is important as it is important to the whole term of "rude boy" being the Jaimaican gangsters of the 50s and 60s who were paid to cause trouble at dancehalls, thereby increasing the possiblity of clients at other dancehalls. This is where the name of the band, Dance Hall Crashers came from. The suits were important to show that they were gangsters, even if they were poor, they had the nice suits to show they were gangsters. You can use the example of "bling" in modern hip hop and rap culture as an analogy here. Some of the artists which should be mentioned are Lauren Aitken, which I believe is already in there, Desmond Dekker, Judge Dread and Toots and The Maytals.

In terms of two tone ska, I would mention Madness. It is important to mention the integration of blacks from Jaimica and whites from UK and how that played into the whole culture of unity, and mention SHARPS. The Specials should be mentioned as perhaps the best two tone band.

In terms of thrid wave I would mention The Suicide Machines, argueably the best example of ska-core music and The Assorted Jelly Beans.

In refrence to the debate of forth wave, it is arguable that bands which emphasize the hardcore sound of ska-core more than the ska part are the fourth wave of ska. These bands include Chicagos Not Too Good and Tusker as well as, perhaps the best example of this, New Jerseys Folly. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 146.163.189.119 (talk • contribs) 8 February 2006

The specials being the best 2 tone band is a bit POV now isnt it? SHARPS are also not important here as that is a skinhead group and is not related to ska in anyway. Also, the suicide machines and assorted jelly beans do indeed play some ska core but that doesnt make them the best examples. Glassbreaker5791 03:30, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fusion genres

I would hardly put Reaggaeton in there. It's more of a rap/reggae fusion. Ska to me seems like a fusion itself. That second position is arguable, but I think we can agree that reagaeyon was very little influenced, if at all, by Ska. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.96.102.166 (talk • contribs) 22 March 2006

[edit] Ska/Soul Revivial

What about the new bands coming out such as Westbound Train, the Aggrolites, Deal's Gone Bad, etc, who are using the old soulful sound of reggae and ska. Is this considered a new wave? Or a ska soul revival? --DJ Citizen D 02:00, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Bands like that are simply part of the third wave. They arent doing anything neccessarily new as bands like hepcat have been playing trad ska in the third wave for a long time. Its just part of the current wave, not a revival of any sorts. Glassbreaker5791 16:36, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Blue Beat

A cursory search shows that "Blue Beat", which is not yet mentioned in the article, was the term used in the UK for all Jamaican music, including ska, before the term "ska" made its way to the UK, and is described as having morphed into ska (though a user above mentions "mento" as well). Surprisingly, Jamaican blues, Blue Beat Records, and the Blue Beat genre are not mentioned in the ska or Music of Jamaica articles at all. Would someone be so kind as to add some kind of mention? I'd do it myself, but I'm already overextended. A reference is here.—mjb 07:42, 6 May 2006 (UTC) Another reference: here.—mjb 04:37, 9 May 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Too much Third Wave

There's too much emphasis on third wave ska bands in this article. Many of them sound almost nothing like real ska anyway. There's a separate article on Third Wave Ska, so there's no need to list so many third wave bands here. Spylab 03:22, 12 May 2006 (UTC)spylab

I don't agree. Third wave is the most modern incarantion of ska. Its length is about as long as the second wave, and both are significantly shorter than the first wave. I think that this is appropriate. (The third wave of ska might be looked down upon by fans of the first and/or second waves, but it's still a legitamite genre based on the fact that so many bands recognize it. It deserves to be covered significantly in the Ska article.) -DanDanRevolution 17:41, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

There's no need to list so many third wave bands. Listing band names doesn't help people understand what third wave ska is, and those bands are already listed in the Third wave of ska article and in the List of ska musicians anyway. People keep adding their favourite bands, and it just clutters up the article. Spylab 17:39, 17 May 2006 (UTC)spylab


I just fixed up the third wave peice a little bit, it barely mentioned the toasters or Op Ivy/Bosstones role in bringing it about. Also it had Reel Big Fish listed as neo-trad ska. Mathew Allen - 20 May 2006

Whoever wrote in that Third Wave ska is rock with horns doesn't know what they're talking about. A large number of bands use exclusively upchords and ska rythms. The description which was already there detailed 'marrying punk with ska' and such, which is exactly what it is. I don't see why this change was necessary.

Wow!!! I actually think this entry is acurrate now!

129.174.54.124 21:20, 16 September 2006 (UTC)/* POV In 2 Tone Section */ ==POV In 2 Tone Section==

Hey, there's no mention here at all about the Argenitean ska craze... The ska scene in Argentina is HUGE, relatively speaking, compared to that of the United States. It is STILL going on. I won't be able to write about it for a while, since I'm no expert, but something has to be said about it, as well as of its many, many bands. Demf 11:55, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Uh...ok well its not exactly quite as huge a part of third wave ska and, just a note, the ska "craze" if you wanna call it that is still going on here too. Most third wave ska bands are still playing huge concerts and there's a gargantuanly large number of underground ska bands. If theres anything that you can find sources for about the argentina ska craze, I invite you to add some information but I'm pretty sure its not too much of an important part of the thirdwave ska, just as japans ska scene gets a very small amount of mention. Glassbreaker5791 23:17, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Speed Calypso?

"One other theory is that it was merely an abbreviation of the term "speed calypso", which may be an accurate description of the music"

Does anyone have a citation for this? I've never heard of it before and sounds like a backronym to me. It just seems a little odd, I mean 'speed calypso' really isn't an accurate description of ska, unless you're listening to third wave and can't tell the difference between calypso and ska.The emo canaries 20:30, 22 June 2006 (UTC)


Yeah, that does sound like someone's personal pet hypothesis, and I've never heard it before in 25 years of reading about and playing ska. Should it just be removed, or is that bad ettiquette? 82.35.28.217 01:04, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm removing it, I can't find any sources that suggest this theory nor do I believe it has any real validity, if anyone can substantiate the claim then it can be put back in.The emo canaries 05:59, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] madness did the most to bring two tone to the public eye?

Madness may have lasted longer then most other ska bands however they were only on the two tone label for one single, and moved on from there ska sound after there early LPs During the peak of the second wave of ska the specials were alot more popular, perhapes this should be removed


"The band to do the most to bring two-tone to the public eye in the UK was Madness who's highly entertaining videos where heavily included on early MTV and on the BBC's influencal music show "Top of the Pops"..."

This quote is opinionated, and gramatically incorrect. I would delete it, but it there anything else that mention Madness in the article?Atticus2020 04:42, 18 June 2006 (UTC)


Madness definitely was one of the first 2nd wave groups to rise above a subcultural status and became (inter)nationally known. It's not all opinion...129.174.54.124 21:20, 16 September 2006 (UTC)tad

  • Yes, but there is big difference between saying they were one of the most influential, and saying they did the most of all of the bands.Spylab 07:33, 17 September 2006 (UTC)Spylab
  • granted129.174.73.45 02:16, 18 September 2006 (UTC)tad

[edit] GA Re-Review and In-line citations

Members of the Wikipedia:WikiProject Good articles are in the process of doing a re-review of current Good Article listings to ensure compliance with the standards of the Good Article Criteria. (Discussion of the changes and re-review can be found here). A significant change to the GA criteria is the mandatory use of some sort of in-line citation (In accordance to WP:CITE) to be used in order for an article to pass the verification and reference criteria. Currently this article does not include in-line citations. It is recommended that the article's editors take a look at the inclusion of in-line citations as well as how the article stacks up against the rest of the Good Article criteria. GA reviewers will give you at least a week's time from the date of this notice to work on the in-line citations before doing a full re-review and deciding if the article still merits being considered a Good Article or would need to be de-listed. If you have any questions, please don't hesitate to contact us on the Good Article project talk page or you may contact me personally. On behalf of the Good Articles Project, I want to thank you for all the time and effort that you have put into working on this article and improving the overall quality of the Wikipedia project. Agne 03:12, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Reasons for GA Delisting

This article's GA status has been revoked because it fails criterion 2. b. of 'What is a Good Article?', which states;

(b) the citation of its sources using inline citations is required (this criterion is disputed by editors on Physics and Mathematics pages who have proposed a subject-specific guideline on citation, as well as some other editors — see talk page).

LuciferMorgan 00:56, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The Uptones and The Untouchables

Hi, I'm a newbie to this process but i am certain the entry I am trying to make is valid and important to this article. I saw The Uptones in this article but that has since been deleted. So I tried to add them, and my entry was deleted. The Uptones pre-date nearly all of the bands listed as third wave ska. They were extremely popular on the west coast throughout the 80's. They played from 1981 to 1989, and were a top bay area act by 1983. They sold out every major nightclub in the San Francisco bay area repeatedly. They also played support for UB40, Madness, the English Beat, The Go-Go's, General Public, Steel Pulse, and Billy Idol. Members of Operation Ivy have cited The Uptones as a major influence. Rancid covered the Uptones' "Get Out Of My Way" on their first album.

The problem with fitting The Uptones into this article has to do with the basic way the article is structured: original ska, two-tone ska, and third wave ska. This breakdown as a timeline is somewhat flawed. "Two-tone" does not just describe an era and a record label, it is also used to describe a type of ska music, regardless of when it was/is made. The Uptones play in the two-tone style, and they were influenced greatly by The Specials, Madness, the Selecter, and the English Beat. The most key two-tone band, The Specials, had stopped playing by 1981. Third wave ska had not started yet, and the phrase third wave had not yet been coined. The Uptones in Northern California, and The Untouchables in Southern California, played ska as headliners to thousands of dancing fans starting in the very early 1980's. So no discussion of ska in America and the transition from two-tone era to so-called third wave ska is complete without mentioning these two notable bands.

Equally glaring, as someone else mentioned here, is the omission of Operation Ivy. Op Ivy was, more than any other band, the flashpoint that informed all the punk ska that followed.

Ska trek 1969 06:11, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

  • I don't know anything about the Uptones, and never heard of them before they were mentioned on Wikipedia, but I do know that the Untouchables played soul and mod revival, not ska. Also, I'm pretty sure the term third wave ska was first used to describe British bands that came after 2-Tone in the early 1980s, such as the Loafers, Riffs, Skadows and Mr. Review Spylab 07:23, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

The Untouchables also played ska, but indeed, they were mod r&b band primarily. The mod and ska audiences in California overlapped quite a bit then. Interesting about the "third wave ska" term being used in England after two-tone. I've heard of the Loafers, but I've never heard of Riffs, Skadows or Mr. Review. But then, I don't live in England. Ska trek 1969 03:45, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

I added The Uptones to the article again, in the place where they fit best in the article as written. I feel it's preposterous to cite Bim Skala Bim and The Toasters there without adding The Uptones. As for the Untouchables, I feel strongly that they have a hand in this story too. They weren't a ska band really, but rather a mod r&b band that played a lot of great ska when hardly anyone else was doing it, and they certainly influenced No Doubt and other bands that followed. So I feel The Untouchables should be in this article as well but I'm not sure where. As for the Uptones, here are two links that vet the statements I added to the article today. http://www.mystrands.com/artist/12697/biography and http://tinpan.fortunecity.com/penny/978/facts.htm

  • I just touched up the writing in the section and added a mention of the Untouchables, with the disclaimer that they were mostly a mod/soul band. Those links should be added into the article as references (and to the Uptones article). Spylab 17:29, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Third Wave Ska Bands Become Pop-Punk

There is a contested part of the Third Wave section that says most third wave bands changed their sound to be more pop punk. I believe this to be a gross generalization as many of those bands don't conform specifically to the pop-punk genre, since many of them have European, jazz, rock and metal influences (among others), as well as continuing to use any wave of ska as an inspiration. I don't see why we have to cordon them into the pop-punk genre, nor do I believe any reference to this effect to exist. Discuss?Little tinyfish 02:22, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

  • The sentence does not refer to all third wave ska bands. It refers to specific bands, so that is not generalizing. This is exactly what the sentence says:

Counted among them are Reel Big Fish, Suburban Legends, Streetlight Manifesto, Catch 22, The Aquabats!, Mad Caddies, and Less Than Jake, (most of which started moving away from the ska-influenced sound to become more pop punk-oriented).

Do you dispute the truthfulness of that statement? If so, what part of the sentence is inaccurate? Spylab 10:38, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

    • I don't believe they moved specifically to pop-punk; I believe each band evolved their own fusion of sounds. It just seems like a horribly generalized statement. -unsigned

I'll change it so it doesn't say pop punk, but all of those bands definitely moved away from the ska sound. Spylab 10:46, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] a few notes

"accented guitar or piano rhythms on the offbeat" ? I think it should be rewritten as syncopation.

As for the contested third-wave section. Why is there so much emphasis on ska-punk? I believe it's an offshoot of third-wave for sure, but this article as well as the third-wave ska article it makes it seem like like most third-wave now is ska punk which is very incorrect. The Mighty Mighty Bosstones are also not ska-punk. They are most definitely ska-core, and they founded the genre.

There also needs to be a link or brief mention to skanking, as I believe it's an important part of ska's history and community. Ska is held to be upbeat music, and most ska concerts encourages skank/dance circles since ska is originally (and still somewhat) music for dancing. Cosecant 10:39, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

While you are correct that syncopation is a more accurate technical term, many genres use snycopation. Ska uses a very specific snycopation pattern which is that of accenting the offbeat. Also, though there are many thirdwave ska bands that arent ska punk bands, there still is a strong majority that is ska punk, especially the more popular ones. Glassbreaker5791 03:37, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

    • Judging by their new CD (Monkeys for Nothing and Chimps for Free,) Reel Big Fish has a stronger ska influence now than they did during the third wave. Ash Loomis (talk) 20:06, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Third wave ska section and separate article

The section on Third wave ska is now bigger than the main article on that subject. There is also considerable content in the section in this article that isn't in the subject's main article. I would suggest that content is consolidated into the Third wave ska article and only a summary left in this article.--Michig 19:19, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree. We don't need the history of record labels. It reads too much like an 8th grade English report, with too much personal opinion. And, call me a purist, but I think it just isn't an important genre. Worth a mention, yes, because it was so popular in the mid 90s, but we don't need a discography. Besides if we are going to go that route then why not discuss more about the producers in Jamaica, complete listing of all original Skatalites members, list of all djs, etc. Is there a separate page just for Jamaican Ska?LBCboyee 22:18, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] West Bound Train???

They are a relatively new band. I don't think they should be included in the list at the end of the article. Maybe include Mobtown, Allentons, Where's Wally, The Debonaires, or The Israelites. (Granted I'm from LA so those are the only bands I have reference to) Those are all bands that lasted through the 3rd wave debacle. Moreover, Hepcat isn't really playing anymore, and Slacker's latest album was garbage. LBCboyee 21:12, 25 April 2007 (UTC)—The preceding unsigned comment was added by LBCboyee (talk • contribs) 21:09, 25 April 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Some Ideas

Hey guys, I'm a longtime ska lover, with appreciation for many different types of ska-influenced music. I have a few ideas for the ska page, and wanted some input from the community, before I develop and post them. I lay them out here, point by point:

  • The Ska Stigma - I think that it's fair to say that, although it's been very popular at times, Ska has always been the underdog. Ska in the early days had a very lower class stigma attached to it. Ernest Ranglin would work under pseudonyms when making ska records, so he wouldn't sully his good name, in Jazz circles. Ska during the 2-Tone movement was also seen as working class music. The third wave gave ska a completely different stigma, which I have a hard time putting my finger on. But modern music critics see ska as silly, simple music. There's a duplicity that runs through every era of ska: it's catchy to some, and popular in small groups, but hated and put down by mainstream culture, at nearly every turn.
  • Non Wave Ska - I think aside from all the Wave talk, there is a quality of ska that makes it lasting, and it should be addressed. Ska is, at once, a flexible music style, and a narrowly defined one. The ska article does mention several of the styles that ska has been mixed with, but nothing is said of this being part of ska's inherent nature. The guys from the Ska Parade wrote a great article that described ska as a hodge podge soup that you can add or subtract to, for amazing results. Also, maybe we should mention that ska doesn't really go away between waves.
  • Advertisement Ska - Since the late 90's Television and Radio Commercials have been pushing their products with Ska music. Even though corporate radio has panned ska, marketers know that it will convey an upbeat, energetic message to it's target, the youth. Not only do I believe this to be an important development in Ska's history, but this is another example of Ska's duplicitous nature.

You can probably see bias and opinion throughout the above points. Even more reason to hear your feedback. These things are true about ska, and I have references for most of them. Tell me what you think.

JJ Loy 07:19, 9 May 2007 (UTC)


If you can find references to back up any of these points, go ahead and add them to the article. However, without any references, it is just uncited speculation and personal opinion, otherwise known as original research. In fact, if anything is desperately needed in this article, it is references for the content that is already there.

I haven't seen any evidence that ska has always been an underdog and has faced stigma. When it first hit the music scene, it was the most mainstream type of popular music in Jamaica, and it has also been high in the UK charts at certain points. The third wave ska scene also had much mainstream commercial success at one time. I haven't see any evidence that ska is hated by non-fans any more than other music genres are hated by non-fans (e.g. punk rock, metal, hip hop, goth, emo, new country, pop punk, techno). It is very rare that one genre of music is loved by all people.

As for a more detailed description of ska music, go ahead and add more information, as long as it is accurate and unbiased. I haven't see any evidence that ska is any more flexible than other styles of music. Just like any other genre, if you add too much that's different or take away too much that is essential, it will not be the same genre of music any more. Also, it's unnecessary to point out that ska didn't go away between waves, just as it's unnecessary to say the ocean doesn't disappear when the waves calm down.

Yes, ska and ska punk have been used in commercials, and in some TV show themes, but I haven't seen any evidence that ska has been used for those purposes any more than other music genres. Feel free to add reliably-sourced material on that topic if there is any. Spylab 11:30, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks Spylab. I'll see what I can dig up, trim the fat, and see if there's anything still worth posting. JJ Loy 06:04, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

If we're doing notable bands in commercials, I remember the Specials' Monkey Man being in a commercial featuring monkeys. I remember it being for Sierra Mist or Visa (odd, I know). I haven't really done any research on it, though. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Little tinyfish (talk • Little tinyfish 00:43, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Pronunciation

The pronunciation of "ska" is given in the IPA as [skæː], which would have the same vowel as in "cat." I've always heard it pronounced [skaː], having the same vowel as in "cot." Perhaps this is just a regional or generational variation, and not worth nitpicking about, but otherwise the pronunciation probably ought to be changed. JoFrhwld 03:55, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

  • I'm going to delete the pronunciation, because as you correctly pointed out, the word is pronounced differently by different people, depending on their accent. Spylab 11:51, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

I agree that the accent does change but isnt the correct pronunciation still the latter one? It can be heard from very very early ska recordings and regardless of your accent, it still would be pronounced in that same way. the vowel never is pronounced as said above as "cat". since it can be heard in recordings of the people who helped to define the genre, isnt there actually a correct pronunciation regardless of accent? Technically the accent only changes the way it sounds, it doesnt change the way the word is supposed to be pronounced. Glassbreaker5791 22:48, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] No Doubt

are not ska!!!!! they are pop / top 40 crap

They may not be ska now, and they may not have been ska then, but the entry says they were "ska influenced" and they did bring a considerable amount of attention to the third wave (though no source is cited). They shouldn't be denounced based on their level of radio play, nor based on your opinion.Little tinyfish 01:03, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

It should probably be rewritten that No Doubt weren't always a "ska-influenced rock band"; when they first gained notoriety back in the late 80s (opening for Fishbone and The Untouchables), way before they made their first album, they were straight-up third-wave, with absolutely zero rock or pop influence.

Why should that be written here?Little tinyfish 23:26, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Etymology

There should be link to "http://www.yourdictionary.com/ahd/s/s0443750.html" describing the etymology of the word ska. --84.163.80.10 10:29, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Scratchlike Tempo

The article claims that ska is characterised by a "scratchlike tempo". Does anyone know what a scratchlike tempo is or was it added as a subtle form of vandalism? If someone does know what it means perhaps that person could replace it with something that the rest of us can understand. 219.90.167.202 15:15, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

A subtle form of vandalism? That's an interesting thought. I suppose articles could be deliberately vandalised by the addition of phrases that seem to mean something, but in fact don't. I prefer to think that it was unintentional though. I'm silly, aren't I? Whatever the motive, I doubt that "scratchlike tempo" means anything at all, so I'll remove it. The Stickler 14:55, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

I don't think that was vandalism, just confused wording. If you assume that the editor thought "tempo" was equivalent to "beat", then you can see where they're coming from, it's a fair attempt to describe the characteristic ska sound, just not put into words very well. - 88.111.31.75 14:17, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The dance?

There is indeed a dance that originated during the first wave of ska called "the ska" which is still occasionally performed today (though, like skanking, it has "evolved" into something arguably much different). Should this be mentioned at least somewhere? Glassbreaker5791 03:34, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

How significant is Latin Ska in it's scope and influence? Bands: Los Fabuloso Cadillacs - Argentina Desorden Publico - Venezuela Ska Cubano - Cuba Panteon Rococo - Mexico King Chango - US? etc. etc.—


.....um....ok and what does that have to do with anything? Glassbreaker5791 23:13, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

That was just a general question and i guess it got put in response to your question. My first post..

[edit] Latin Ska

How significant is Latin Ska in it's scope and influence? Should there be a section on this? Bands: Los Fabuloso Cadillacs - Argentina Desorden Publico - Venezuela Ska Cubano - Cuba Panteon Rococo - Mexico King Chango - US? Ska P - Spain etc. etc.—

That's a good question. If you've got proper references on the influences of Latin ska, I invite you to add these facts. If you're simply asking to list these bands, I don't see the point. Little tinyfish 00:07, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Ska definition

Early definition needs more clarification.

1. Rude boy was not a subculture in Jamaica, it was local slang for criminal or gangster. It was used the same way a "hoodie" or "chav" is used currently. Also the rise of the "rude boy" song trend in Jamaica coincided with rocksteady.

2. Skinheads had little interest in ska in the late 60s. They were more interested in current sounds, i.e. reggae. Ska by the late 60s was having a revival as "big people music". More likely it was the parents who listened and fueled the sale of reissues that appeared in the late 60s, early 70s.

I will go through my books and find better citations for definitions. Upsetterfc 16:57, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Use better references. Reference to ska in article was mentioned as mod music. Interview with one band member is not proof of late 60s connection. Ska likely used to add context to interview. Only confirms that "One Step Beyond" remained popular through subculture transition from mod to skinhead. Upsetterfc 18:27, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

  • First, rude boy was more than just a slang word. Yes, Jamaican rude boys were street criminals, but they also had distinct styles and behaviour -- as well as a common interest in rocksteady. That fits the definition of subculture. Second, you make it sound like there was a clean spit between mods and skinheads, when in reality there was overlap and transition. There was also overlap and transition in terms of the musicians who performed ska, rocksteady and reggae. Mods and skinheads both listened to soul, ska, rocksteady and reggae, becuase that's what was being played at the time. Many of the musicians who started out as ska also made the transition to rocksteady and reggae, and many of their fans followed. The "hard mods" mentioned in the one source were the first skinheads, before skinheads had an officially-recognized name. There has always been a link between ska and skinheads, and there still is today.Spylab 18:55, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

It's a minor link that causes confusion when defining the events. Reggae was the music skinheads listened to. The older siblings or parents were the ones who listened to ska. The mod and skinhead subcultures were new and evolving at the time, today's behaviors cannot be applied. Many older mods did not adopt what became the skinhead subculture, only a small minority did. The rest drifted into other subcultures or no longer indulged in "youthful behavior". Skinheads were a youth-driven subculture influenced by current trends at the time. Of course there was crossover, but you overstate the importance in defining what ska music was in the 60s in the UK. Present proper research to back up your claims of a strong historical link between skinheads and ska in the 1960s. Upsetterfc 21:03, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Didn't address rude boys the previous day...

Your interpretation of a commonality between Jamican rude boys, UK skinheads and rocksteady is circumstantial. In Jamaica, listening to rocksteady was not part of defining a subculture, it was mainstream Jamaican culture. If you listened to Canadian Top 40 radio in the mid 60's, that didn't by default make you part of a subculture. Rude boys were not trying to define themselves as a subculture based on music, which by the mid 60s was a shared commonality between most Jamaican at home and abroad. The subculture aspects would come from their political alignment with either the Jamaican Labor Party (JLP) or the People's National Party (PNP).Upsetterfc 14:52, 20 September 2007 (UTC)Upsetterfc 14:54, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Articles used are poor references, why is there such a need to connect early skinheads to ska music? It's simply not relevant to early history. Ska was not popular amongst skinheads until the first revival.Upsetterfc 15:12, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

  • Where is your evidence that skinheads didn't start listening to ska until the late-1970s 2 Tone movement? My version of the sentence says "in many decades", which is true and backed up by references. Your version makes a very specific claim that needs to be backed up by very specific references. You make it seem like there was a clear cut between ska, rocksteady and early reggae, when in reality there was crossover and all three styles of music were played by certain bands and DJs during the same night. Why the the need to deny that ska and skinheads have been linked for many years? Spylab 15:27, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Never denied it, it is over-emphasied. It was not relevant to the subculture until mid-70s. If I could find some time from caring for baby, I'd find the relevant research and post it. I'm still waiting for your proof of skinheads listening to ska in the 60s that isn't a vanity quote for a magazine.Upsetterfc 15:33, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

  • As anyone can see, my latest version of the sentence says "in many decades". It does not mention the 1960s, 1970s or any other decade. My version of the sentence is backed up. Your claim that skinheads didn't start listening to ska until the 2 Tone era(which didn't really start until around 1979) is not backed up. Therefore my version is more facually accurate and verifiable.Spylab 15:39, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Many decades is a vague statement not backed by fact. 2-Tone era began earlier than 79, actually 77 is more accurate (see:http://www.thespecials.com/history.php) when the first bands were starting to take shape. The skinhead subculture's revival and popularity was driven by 2-Tone ska revival. I don't question ska's popularity amongst 2nd generation skins in mid-70s, but your statement needs support. Will try to find info from Hebdige books.Upsetterfc 15:46, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Found supporting evidence for skinheads listening to reggae in "The Cambridge Cultural History of Britain", by Boris Ford, 1992, page 21. Meanwhile I am looking for copies of papers that mention this link that were published before the ska revival, when the "skinheads=ska" misconception became commonplace.

Upsetterfc 16:30, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Upsetterfc Challenging Content

Upsetterfc Please check your talk page.

I have presented TONS of references including quotes from Jamaican musicians...what more do you need. It is ironic that you consider yourself to be more of an authority on Jamaican ska than Jamaican musicians who were there at the time.


Your quotes are not backed up by any facts. The quotes only show that the musicians performed with the band. The musicians can state what they want, but without objective proof (citations from source material such as research on Jamaican hotel industry or known researchers/historian on early Jamaican music), it is nothing more than bragging. You have yet to provide any evidence for your statement about Billy Vernon and the Celestials being the "highest paid" band. And even if you did, that has no relevance to the history presented here. You also neglect to discuss any other hotel bands or provide any reason why the hotel bands are relevant to ska music. The truth is the group recorded 12 tracks during the ska era, which is not much compared to other hotel bands such as the Mighty Vikings, the Tower Island hotel band, Byron Lee and the Dragonnaires, Carlos Malcolm and other acts who performed in hotels.

Your purpose appears to be to promote one of these musicians, not to present objective information on the evolution of ska music. Your personal attacks on me will only make me work harder to discredit your statements.Upsetterfc 13:13, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Please do not post "proof" on my talk page. It will be deleted without consideration. Any discussion about the subject belongs here. Upsetterfc 13:24, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Upsetterfc Not More Credible Than The Musicians Who Were There At the Time

No one has attacked you. I have merely pointed out the truth that well known Jamaican artists have far more credibility than you do about the subject. What you are saying makes no sense. Pointing that out is not an attack.

Eyewitness accounts are FAR more credible than what a researcher has to say. Let the Jamaican musicians who were there at the time speak for themselves.

How can one promote a musical group that existed during the 1960s and doesn't exist anymore? It is impossible. This is historical content. There is nothing to promote. Show me what in THIS is promotional.

"According to Jamaican musical pioneers E. T. Webster (known as Errol T.), [1] Allie McNab, [2] and Bob Williams, lead singer for the popular Jamaican 60s duo Bob and Wisdom, [3], drummer Everton Paul, [4] and Cat Coore of the internationally known reggae band Third World (band), [5] during the 1960s, one of the most successful and highly paid musical groups in Jamaica was Billy Vernon and the Celestials, the resident band at the "Yellow Bird Club" in Montego Bay which toured many of the island's leading hotels. Their work was a blend of ska, mento, jump up and featured hits such as "Ska Suzanna," "Yellow Bird," and "Wings Of A Dove". A number of artists including "Errol "E.T." Webster," also known as "Errol T," [6] got their start in the music business with Billy Vernon and the Celestials."

Let an administrator come and look at it.


69.158.105.62 18:00, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Questioning whether or not I am Jamaican with the implication I don't know what I'm discussing is a personal attack.

You still have not provided any of the information requested. Posting websites of musicians and news articles mentioning the group does not show their contribution to ska music. You make unattributed statements to how popular the band was and how much the band earned, which is irrelevant to the subject. If you wish to write about Billy Vernon and the Celestials, start an article about them. You must provide legitimate sources to back up your claims for Billy Vernon and the Celestials contributions to ska music in order to meet the criteria for inclusion.Upsetterfc 18:08, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

I have provided quotes from eyewitnesses that wre there at the same time...if that is not a legitimate source, I don't know what is. Questioning whether you are Jamaican or not and whether you have direct knowledge of these matters is not an attack. It is a statement of fact. Surely you don't know more about reggae or ska than the artists that created it. The quotes I provided were from credible newspapers including JAMAICAN newspapers. Surely they have more knowledge about these matters than you do. The fact that you don't consider quotes about the Jamaican music scene from Jamaican musicians and Jamaican musicials to be credible is just plain bizarre.

You still have not produced one shred of evidence to back up your claim that information posted is promotional. One cannot promote what no longer exists.


Why are you afraid to have an administrator come and look at it? What is your real agenda here?

69.158.105.62 18:45, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

I requested admin help on October 1.

I have discussed band with JA music historian, they were a hotel band who happened to play ska as part of their set. That does not qualify them as historically relevant to article. I will provide source material when I receive it. Carlos Malcolm is more relevant to the ska history page and yet you do not mention his band or contributions.Upsetterfc 19:00, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Disagree. ANYBODY who knows about ska knows Ska Suzanna. That is a lot more than just playing other people's music as part of one's set. At no time did I say they only played ska. In fact, I listed examples of the other types of jamaican music they played.

About making further contributions to this page, I started with ONE contribution. Re: writing about Carlos Malcolm, if contribution of information about ONE group that was well known and did in fact record original ska has created this much back and forth, I certainly will NOT be wasting my time contributing information about other artists as I had intended to. The pages says you want contributions, surely you do not.

69.158.117.24 20:42, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

If you wish to write about the band, they should have their own article. Billy Vernon and the Celestials are not relevant to the history of ska music other than being one of many hotel bands who played ska music in Jamaica. They were a hotel band who played all different types of music for tourists, they did not have any roll in developing the sound. They just jumped on the bandwagon when the govt used ska to promote tourism.Upsetterfc 20:59, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Important countries that ska is incorporated

I feel lack more countries where ska has an important demonstration in the world like Brazil for example. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.47.150.35 (talk) 16:16, 11 April 2008 (UTC)