Talk:Six Nations Championship

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Contents 1 Other discussion 2 Millennium Trophy 3 Centenary Quaich 4 Requested move 5 Irish flag 6 France 7 Sports Infobox & Trophy 8 RBS Sponsorship 9 Records 10 good article nomination 11 U-21 tournament 12 Shared titles 13 Wins since 1954 14 Unofficial European Champions 15 Media coverage 16 2008 results

[edit] Other discussion

Who captained France to five nations victory in 1959?

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The competition is something of an anomaly since the Irish team is comprised of players from both Northern Ireland and the Republic. It is only in rugby union that the north and south of Ireland provide a combined team.

This is fundamentally incorrect. Very many sports are organised on an all-Ireland basis. -Gabriel Beecham/Kwekubo 23:23, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)

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Calcutta Cup needs adding.

and the Millennium Trophy.

[edit] Millennium Trophy

The article stated that the Millennium Trophy has been contested since 2000. However the Millennium Trophy article, and other sources state that the trophy was commissioned in 1988 ; the website also mentions Ireland winning it in 1993 and 1994. Gives a list of winners back to 1998.Tonywalton  | Talk 14:24, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

The cup celebrates Dublin's millenium rather than THE millenium. Perhaps that is why people get confused.GordyB 12:18, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Centenary Quaich

I have never heard of this "trophy", has anyone else ever heard of it? I searched the web and only found one mention of it with regard to rugby, wheras the Millennium Trophy and the Calcutta Cup return thousands of links, has someone just made this up or is there such a thing? 194.125.110.201 15:24, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

I also have not heard of it before, but this BBC report refers to it (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/low/northern_ireland/2771949.stm) and so it is obviously geniune.GordyB 15:28, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

These pages -- (http://www.irishrugby.ie/6855_7603.php) and (http://www.guardian.co.uk/6nations/article/0,,191564,00.html) -- mention it. It seems to have been around since 1989, though I've never heard of it. What's not clear is what centenary it celebrates -- Ireland and Scotland first met in 1877. Jimmy Pitt (talk) 18:39, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Requested move

[edit] Irish flag

With regards to the Irish flag used beforethe free state, would it not make more sense to use the cross of St. Patrick then the Tricolour and Ulster flags?

Musungu jim 13:15, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

This was voted on at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Rugby_union, the conclusion was that the shamrock was the popular choice. I somehow missed this page when converting the various flags to shamrocks.GordyB 13:56, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

It's a little more complex than I first thought, the [[Image:Irish clover.jpg |{{{1|20}}}px]] image that I used on other pages is too big (and doesn't have 'Ireland' coming after it, if I rescale it to 1|15 it is the right height but not wide enough. This will have to wait while I try to find a solution. I think probably the best thing I can do is to edit the image file used by this page rather than try to insert a different image.GordyB 14:32, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

The "St Patrick's Cross" was not the Irish flag, as frequently claimed, but the emblem of the Fitzgeralds, England's colonial henchmen in Ireland. --MacRusgail 19:02, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

We are all aware of this but it has no relevance. There was a vote and shamrocks won that is the end of the matter.GordyB 19:14, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] France

Who actually kicked France out in 1930, was it the international rugby football board, or a decesion made by a 5N board of some kind?? 144.131.202.34 06:06, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

I think the RFU was largely behind it. The IRFB were up and running at the time but IIRC the RFU held half the seats (the French not being represented), the SRU were even more fanatical about amateurism than their English counterparts. The Irish probably didn't care and the Welsh might have sympathised.GordyB 13:58, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sports Infobox & Trophy

I've added the Sports infobox that's started to be used on articles. Also I've moved the trophy picture further down the article - I realise RWC has it at the top, but it's fair use and therefore must be accompanied by critical commentary and not used for decoration purposes. Therefore I've put it next to the trophy section of the article - here fair use can probably be claimed. Alexj2002 15:09, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] RBS Sponsorship

Anyone know how much the RBS actually pay in Sponsorship? JulianHensey 17:52, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Records

[edit] good article nomination

GA review (see here for criteria)

1. It is reasonably well written.

   a (prose): b (MoS):

2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.

   a (references): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR):

3. It is broad in its coverage.

   a (major aspects): b (focused):

4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.

   a (fair representation): b (all significant views):

5. It is stable.

   

6. It contains images, where possible, to illustrate the topic.

   a (tagged and captioned): b lack of images (does not in itself exclude GA): c (non-free images have fair use rationales):

7. Overall:

   a Pass/Fail: [[Image:|15px]]

the page needs more citations before it can be classed as a good article Themcman1 15:49, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] U-21 tournament

Anyone have any info on the under 21s 6N? So we can add it in like the Womens is. Goldman07 15:30, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Shared titles

I counted 11 shared titles for Wales (instead of 10) and 8 shared titles for France (not 7). Can I edit this in 1 Week time? April 4

  -  I have changed the Welsh figure in the blurb but do not know how to edit the table - anyone else?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.68.53.18 (talk) 14:13, 17 September 2007 (UTC) 

[edit] Wins since 1954

I have France on 24 (inc 2006 and 2007). I'm also not sure that England can be placed before Wales. Although they do have 2 more grand slams, they've won the tournament 3 less times. Surely in a page about the Six nations Tournament, that should place Wales in second? Can I change in 1 week? September 17 2007 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.68.53.18 (talk) 14:11, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Unofficial European Champions

I've removed the following comment from the opening paragraph:

The winner of the RBS 6 Nations is often seen as being the unofficial European Champions.

It had been tagged with a request for a citation already. I've personally never heard such a remark and it smacks of orignal research to me. Considering that most european countries do have a national side and yet only 6 teams compete I think it's a bit of a stretch to make this comment. Aula^TPN 12:58, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

No, it isn't. Only the six nations have professional teams; in other countries rugby union is only an amateur sport. ENC is also known as "Six Nations B", why would that be the case if it was not universally considered a lower league.GordyB 15:46, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Somebody (not me!) has removed the comment, with the note "Removing inaccurate statement - no one uses that terminology in rugby". I agree. I've been following the 5N and 6N since the mid-1960s and can't recall ever hearing the tournament champions described as "European Champions" (official or unofficial). I'm not saying that the 6N champions are not the best team in Europe; of course they are, considering that the rest are amateurs, but nobody is daft enough to want such a hollow title. Jimmy Pitt (talk) 22:41, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

If you bought the Times today then there is an example on page 40 of the separate 6 Nations suppliment.

There have been six World Cups and, in three of the five seasons that followed, England emerged as European champions - 1992, 1996 and 2000.

I am reverting accordingly.GordyB (talk) 14:03, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Are you sure they are talking about the 6 nations?

England has won the 6 nations in 1992, 1995, 1996, 2000, (as well as a few more years before and after). Why did the article leave out 1995? If anything 1995 was a grand slam year, unlike 1996.

The wording does not sound right either. "in three of the five seasons that followed...", that does not sound right as the 6 nations happen every year so between 1992 and 2000 there was 8 'seasons', (I don't think that they are called seasons either).

Would you be able to quote/ref a bit more of the article, I am curious as to what they were talking about.

I have also never heard of the 6 nations been refered to as the 'unofficial European Champions'. Google seems to agree as well. FFMG (talk) 14:30, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Try harder, I found six links in a matter of minutes.GordyB (talk) 19:42, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

There were five seasons that immediately followed World Cups (as there have been 5 World Cups). As for the quote, I will see if it is available online later but I am watching a game at the moment.GordyB (talk) 15:11, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

I see. Still, I find it a bit strange for the Times to say that, (for a moment I though they might be talking of European Club Rugby, but it only started in 1995).

Like I said, never heard of the 5N or 6N winner been called the European champion. FFMG (talk) 16:27, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Provide a proper citation. Until you do so I'm removing it. One newspaper article does not establish "often seen as..."Jimmy Pitt (talk) 15:05, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

How many would you like? Previously it was claimed that nobody ever said this. Exactly how many quotes would establish that it was relatively common?GordyB (talk) 15:11, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

More than one. You insist it's often used. Several of us say it's not and though we're not saying (well I'm not) that it's never used, we are saying that we've never come across it. If it's that rare, it shouldn't be in an encyclopaedic article, certainly not in the lead section. One instance doesn't demonstrate "often", any more than one swallow makes a summer. If you want "often", rather than "sometimes", or "occasionally", or "infrequently", it's up to you establish verifiability, because it's the inaccurate "often" that we're disputing. Jimmy Pitt (talk) 16:14, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

To add to my previous comment, if you were to put the comment somewhere in the body of the article I'd have less of a problem with it, but it has no place in the lead section when it's (a) contentious, and (b) not mentioned in the article itself. Jimmy Pitt (talk) 15:08, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

I have six in total.GordyB (talk) 19:43, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

• http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/rugby/article3288215.ece
• http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sport/rugby_union/six_nations/612204.stm
• http://icwales.icnetwork.co.uk/rugbynation/rugby-in-wales/2008/02/01/can-wales-lift-the-six-nations-crown-91466-20422287/2/
• http://www.334notout.com/rugby/history.htm
• http://www.eurostar.com/UK/uk/leisure/latest_deals/six_nations_rugby.jsp
• http://www.sportingo.com/whatsonline/Rugby/Six%20Nations%20Rugby%20Championship

On the basis of those (one's a dead link, and one contains inaccuracies that render it suspect but I'll grant you four), I accept that it's sometimes referred to ... But life's too short to argue. Jimmy Pitt (talk) 20:37, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Suits me.GordyB (talk) 20:55, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Do we really need all 3 references in the intro? We discussed it here and a consensus was reached, would one ref not be enough?

If a reader wants to, they can come to the talk page and see the other references.

Maybe it is just me, but I think it does not look very nice to have so many refs in the into like that. FFMG (talk) 07:19, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

I agree -- GordyB was trying to justify his point, but once he'd succeeded, one citation in the article should suffice: as you say, the rest are here. Jimmy Pitt (talk) 11:01, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Media coverage

Same question as the one I asked in Talk:2008 Six Nations Championship.
Is there any reason why we need to know who will be broadcasting the tournament?
I have no doubt that it is been shown by many fine stations all over the world, does it really improve the article to list them here? FFMG (talk) 12:33, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Anyone as an input on the mater or shall I just remove it?

I think the list is probably, (I have no ref to check any of the info), out of date and does not offer the reader any useful information. FFMG (talk) 06:06, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

I'd be happy to see it go. It doesn't really seem appropriate for an encyclopaedic article. And it's irrelevant the moment the tournament ends. Jimmy Pitt (talk) 19:01, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] 2008 results

As this article relates to the tournament as a whole and there's an article specifically for 2008, I've linked to that and removed the table and results from here: it doesn't seem sensible to have two tables and two sets of results, in different formats, being updated independently. Jimmy Pitt (talk) 12:56, 25 February 2008 (UTC)