Talk:Sites and places associated with Arthurian legend

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[edit] Avallon & Annwn

An anon editor made this change, which I reverted for these reasons:

  • The derivation of Avallon from Annwn is commonly accepted, & is quoted extensively. While it may be incorrect, removing it is only imposing one Point of View over another. We'd all appreciate an explanation, based on published studies, why this etymology is wrong, & why we should embrace another.
I couldn't find this referenced as commonly accepted. See the head article AvalonMartin Turner 13:41, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
  • To say Avallon means in medieval Welsh "Island of Apples" is wrong: this etymology assumes that Welsh borrowed the Irish word ablach ("rich in apple-trees"). The Welsh expert Professor Thomas Jones has been quoted that no such Welsh word existed (R.S. Loomis, Arthurian Literature in the Middle Ages, p.66 -- this book is worth reading about issues of the Arthurian tradition like this & others).
Loomis is no longer considered to be authoritative -- the book is very elderly and has been questioned by, for example, Tolkien and GordonMartin Turner 13:41, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
  • Into this parenthesis
(and thus, offerings and alms from those coming to see the remains of the famous king)

you added at the end the following words, which I honestly cannot make sense of:

the abbot had been involved in the discovery of the holy blood in another the abbacy at Fécamp

Would you like to have another try at expressing that thought? -- llywrch 04:45, 30 July 2005 (UTC)

While there may not be an Avallon cognate meaning Isle of Apples, it still remains that afallen is apple tree, with the plural form afallenau; English is a Germanic language, and the tendency to orally schweigen is by far not limited to High German tongues. Vowels are also often lowered between transfers.
Some place names in France have forms like "Le Vallon" in places where there is no hill or vale to speak of for kilometres; I doubt the Gaels would have colonised that far and left a mark.
Giraud de Barri, a contemporary courtesan, did not consider Avallon to be an English word, but used it as meaning Isle of Glass (to equate it with the pop etymology of Glastonbury, which might be wrong, and which is wrong anyway for Avallon) when he wrote about the discovery.
Yes, the last bit about Henry de Sully was badly introduced and I should have thought better. Snapdragonfly


Some of the actual text no longer seems to make sense, and seems written in an overly chatty style -- particulary where someone references a 'mistake'. It's not clear whether they mean a mistake in the text of the article, or a mistake in the derivation, or some other kind of mistake.

On the 'Island of Apples' controversy, 'Island of Apples' [1]is given by Geoffrey of Monmouth in Vita Merlini, referencing the place where Arthur was taken to heal his wounds. In History of the Kings of Britain, Geoffrey names this place as Avallon. Geoffrey, of course, may well be wrong, but this is a substantially more established derivation than the Annwn derivation, which seems phonologically unlikely. There was a vast industry, for which Loomis must take some responsibility, of supplying supposed derivations and linkages for Arthurian terms. I should like to see the Annwn proposition referenced properly to an early text, if someone has such a reference.Martin Turner 14:09, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Note further that the etymology given here is in conflict with that given under 'etymology' for the head article Avalon.Martin Turner 14:14, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

As no-one has responded here, I've gone back and deleted those sentences, as it looks like someone was posting on the main article when they should have been posting on the talk page. Since there is a complete discussion of the etymology under the head-word Avalon, it seems more sensible not to reproduce it inconsistently here. Martin Turner 13:41, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Journey to Deganwy

Reference to this poem removed; it is not recognized by academic researchers as a genuinely early poem and is only found in post-medieval manuscripts, not the 13th-century Book of Taliesin. Hrothgar cyning (talk) 23:32, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Good catch.--Cúchullain t/c 22:32, 27 February 2008 (UTC)


[edit] Roxburgh

I noticed the Roxburgh-as-Camelot, and I though it ought to be mentioned that in the same book he mentions the near-island by Roxburgh is the Avalon of legend, or very like it. Perhaps this ought to be mentioned in the article. ---G.T.N. (talk) 22:52, 15 March 2008 (UTC)