Talk:Siouxsie & the Banshees

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Contents

[edit] singles table

Xinger: DO NOT change this singles table back to your template. Again, your template has problems with it - not just with me, but with several members of this community (your own Talk Page documents these discussions, which you choose to ignore, as well as the Foo Fighters vote page).

  • The Banshees are British, and you have placed the UK singles chart column last in your table. It's also the chart in which most of their songs have had success.
  • You continue to use the "#" symbol, which looks sloppy.
  • The singles table now looks completely different from the albums table, which looks sloppy.
  • Columns are varying widths - sloppy.
  • Your template has question marks, for pete's sake.

If you want to add Modern Rock Tracks information to their chart history, why not just add your column to the already-existing table? You're being ridiculous. And I would bet that you'll ignore this request to stop just like you have all the others (not just from me) and you'll revert my changes anyway. -- eo 15:51, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Template

Is the "singles table" the table at the bottom of this Wikipedia entry, the one that seems to be inaccessible to the community for editing? I see no edit link. I wished to add, under "related articles", a link to Wikipedia's article on "Gothic subculture". I feel that a link to an explanation of "Goth" and "gothic", when used in the context of late 20th century music, is necessary. Mooncaine 00:38, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

I put the link to the template on your talk page so you can edit it. - eo 00:46, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Racism

does anyone know if Siouxsie was racist? I know the swatsika was shock value, but what about the song hong kong garden? it has a LOT of anti-chinese sentiment invested in it. look at the lyrics of the song and tell me you dont detect anything wrong with it.

Here are one set of the lyrics that I found on the internet, but I'm not sure if they are right, they look like somebody may have transcribed them from listening to the record with a few mishearings. I always heard the first line as "Prawn ball elements in the air..." Anyway, these certainly do look rather dodgy... I always thought the song was just about her local Chinese take away restaurant...


Harmful elements in the air
Symbols crashing everywhere
Reap the fields of rice and reeds
While the population
Junk floats on polluted water
An old custom to sell your daughter
Would you like number 23
Leave your yen on the counter please
Hong Kong garden
Tourists swarm to see your face
Confuscious has a puzzling grace
Disoriented you enter in
Unleashing scent of wild jasmine
Slanted eyes meet a new sunrise
A race of bodies small in size
Chicken Chow Mein and Chop Suey
Hong Kong garden takeaway
Hong Kong garden
BTW, Siouxsie also infamously sang "Too many Jews for my liking" on the original version of "Love in a Void", although changed the words by the time the song was officially released (my friend has a bootleg of the original demo version with this lyric intact) quercus robur 10:35, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
I will say those lyrics are a bit more suspect that I would have thought, but I think I would mostly disagree that she was a racist in regards to the Chinese. Which lines in particular strike you? To me, the "slanted eyes" may be the most obvious, but in 1978 was that a big deal? As for racism in regards to Judaism, I think her/their recording of "Israel" ought to stand as some sort of defense. Folkor 19:47, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
This is all very interesting, but what exactly is the point? Is it going to be placed into the article somewhere? It seems rather speculative to me. -- eo 19:51, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
I agree, I don't think it makes sense to write something in the article about it. I mean, we are merely speculating, and anyone can do that, just as anyone can look at her lyrics and the band's choices of songs and make a decision. I find no need to write something in.Folkor 08:32, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
Its probably relevant in that there was alot of questions raised around whether Siouxsie was rascist and/or anti-semitic in their early years, in particular by Julie Burchill who reviewed their first album in the NME in 1978, and who made much of the 'too many Jews' line. It would be appropriate for this to be included in the article, but I can't rmeber that much more about it... I know it was quite a big deal at the time though... quercus robur 09:39, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
Well if a source or a quote or an external link can be added to the page which refers to the NME article and the questions that were raised at the time then that should be added, but I don't think its encyclopedic to just say something like "Siouxsie could possibly be racist..." etc. etc. without a journalistic source. Perhaps there is also a response to Burchill's review by Siouxsie herself? -- eo 17:24, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

We could insert it to the Banshees or Siouxsies page to add to the nazi patch and racist accusations, im sure this fueled some of it. I was wondering if any of you knew. Itts not just the slanted eyes lyric. She seems to be pointing out all the faults, and is rather negative about it all. I dont believe she was a racist, I think there is certainly something behind this though.

Siouxsie is definitely NOT racist. Read the biography on Siouxsie & The Banshees and you will see. Siouxsie wrote the Hong Kong Garden to complain about the insults the staff members of her local take-away had to suffer, and about the racism rising which worried her. The lyrics are supposed to be taken as someone else saying the things, and Siouxsie actually that way wants to bring pointless racism into attention. The lyrics are definitely no racist outing and are meant as an anti-racism song (although I agree you have to know the story behind it, otherwise it seems dodgy). The song Israel and the usage of the Star of David was also written for anti-racism purposes, as the band was tired of hearing that there was a racist touch to their music, so they wrote a Christmas song instead and came up with a song about the Holy Land. So definitely Siouxsie is very anti-racist and the lyrics that seem otherwise have to be seen as shock value and not to be taken literarly.
Siouxsie and the Banshees also used a collage by Anti-Nazi John Heartfield on the cover of the single "Mittageisen"/"Love In A Void". It should be remembered that it was the latter song which originally featured the line "...too many Jews for my liking..." - a relic of their shock tactic past - but which was suitably amended for commercial release. Siouxsie and the band were stating their position concerning accusations of Nazi sympathies in a typical manner.LessHeard vanU 22:55, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sid Vicious

John Ritchie (only later known as "Sid Vicious") played drums at the 100 Club gig; Severin has been the bassist since inception. Ritchie was learning to play bass when with The Flowers of Romance and was recruited to the Pistols, on the basis of his look, when Matlock left.LessHeard vanU 20:09, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Similar artists, etc. section

I have to say I don't like the similar artists and list of influences. I'm not sure if those lists belong on this page, as they are quite subjective and sometimes seemingly unfounded. Siouxsie and the Banshees are similar to Placebo? I like both, but that seems a stretch. And Depeche Mode? Again, another band I like, but they focused so thoroughly on their synthesizers. I really don't think the lists should be there. Is there precedent for such lists on other good band pages? Folkor 04:13, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree. The "similar artist" is far too subjective, and the points you made about DM and Placebo are right (IMO). Since it doesn't mention the Yeah Yeah Yeah's or Altered Images it could hardly be called comprehensive, either. 10 out of 10 for enthusiasm, but... The "influences" are reasonable, but I think they are/should be mentioned within the article; indicating in what manner they influenced the band. Do you wish to wield the axe?LessHeard vanU 21:28, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
I noticed that The Beatles are not mentioned as an influence, on a band that recorded two of their songs - having a hit single with one of them. I'm sorry, those sections will have to go - but I will be nice in the edit text.LessHeard vanU 21:32, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

The reason why I added some the bands on the list of similar artists wasn't because their music was similar nessesarly but I found that a lot of fans of The Banshees also were attracted to bands with a similar look or infulences which is why added bands like Placebo and Suede who are both very theatrical and glam based. I'm sorry for adding those contributions, thinking back they're in poor taste.

[edit] Can Someone Find The Reference To Back Up This Fact?

Bold text I've been wondering for a while the accuracy of Siouxsie and the Banshees selling nearly 50 million records. I think Siouxsie and the Banshees are a amazing band but I just have a hard time believing that with their cult status that they've sold that much. Can someone support this?

I've asked at one of the fan sites. If there is any good reference (and more accurate figure) I will put it in.LessHeard vanU 21:55, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
It doesn't look good. The record company has been asked several times, and has never given a definative answer.LessHeard vanU 12:54, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

I actually remember reading a long time ago thta they sold 10-15 million which I think is more reasonable then 50.

This is just pure wrong. This was added right after the same number was (correctly) attributed to the Cure on their wikipedia entry. I love the Banshees to death but they have not sold the same number of albums as the Cure, not even close. If you go to www.riaa.com you can see the shipping sales information for all artists in America. The Cure have several platinum (1,000,000) and gold (500,000) certifications while the Banshees have none, though that could change in the future with Superstition or Peepshow eventually achieving gold status. For the sake of accuracy I removed the entry.

skellington77

[edit] Pronounciation?

Could someone add the pronounciation of "Siouxsie" to the page? I'm sure there's a lot of people including myself who have no idea how to say that. --Scott 22:39, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Take a look here. --Oxygene123 20:35, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Too Limiting?

I love Siouxsie and the Banshees, I love everyone of their albums and releases and I feel that for a band as good as they are, labels like "goth" or "post punk" or even "punk" and "alternative" are against what the band is all about. They hate labels and feel that they've carved out their own path in rock so I would like to change all the labels in their discography and on th main page to just rock.

I wouldn't suggest doing that. Yes, the band rejects labels and their sound spans many different sub-genres, but that's the point: they've touched upon all the genres listed in the infobox throughout their history. Regardles of what the band members want, the public does place labels and descriptions onto them and for the sake of this being an accurate encyclopedia, I think all the descriptions should be there, in order for readers to follow those links and read the articles about the different musical genres. If anything, I'd say add to them, not substract. "Rock" is way too broad. -- eo 18:51, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
They're also quite influential in those particular genres. Anyways, in the authorized biography they actually own up to their influence on goth. WesleyDodds 10:28, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
You could also comment on their influence on, for example, fashion - but it doesn't make them into clothes designers. However, I do agree with eo that the catagories are those that have been assigned by critics, fans and the industry. As a tool for getting results from typical search parameters then it is essential they stay within the article - and the more (as long as they are relevant) the merrier.LessHeard vanU 11:29, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Bandname / Origin

The article states that "The band got their name from Edgar Allan Poe's Cry of the Banshee" .

AFAIK no story called "Cry of the Banshee" by Edgar Allan Poe exists. There is, however, a horror movie of that name that is supposedly based loosely on Poe's "The Murders in the Rue Morgue". Can someone clarify this plz ? 81.210.189.211 00:17, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

I was coming here to make the same observation. This should really be clarified. I put a "fact" tag on the line. --Midnightdreary 16:42, 17 July 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Quote.

I have removed the following quote from the article:

"She described it as "high camp, not death camp.""

This quote was not spoken by Siouxsie, but rather a reporter in the Guardian Weekend from January 14, 1995. [1]

[edit] Dead link

"A poor-quality recording of the concert is available at http://www.untiedundone.com/"

Apparently their first show is no longer available here. The setlist is still there though. 195.24.16.69 01:06, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Not racism, but irony.

One must consider the possibility that racist lyrics were ironic, and coming from a persona, as in a dramatic monologue. The context of Siouxsie's songs, culturally, was particularly rich with that kind of irony. Such deadpan irony represented a different way to protest authority that stood in contrast to the previous generation's forthright, sometimes prosaic protest music. The stance of the 1980s punk was more an angry, somewhat affected nihilistic acknowledgement that humankind is generally selfish or evil, in contrast to the optimistic cajoling of his parents' music. Sentimentality was rejected as hypocritical, and imagery of hate, destruction and chaos was deployed, but ironically -- these artists wished to portray their disenchantment with moral values they perceived as falsely valued... yet the punks and goths who moaned and shouted were, indeed, behind their ironic detachment, both heartfelt and sentimentally earnest. Mooncaine 02:07, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] references

why exactly does this article contain the "refimprove" format label? i see that the article actually contains a references sction and that there are references cited.... IleanaCosanziana 17:32, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Current thinking is that inline references are better, since each notation relates to a particular page or section of the source. It goes some way to "prove" that what is written is specifically supported by third parties. The references in their section are still available should anyone want to read the entire thing, but inline annotation simply cuts to the direct quote. LessHeard vanU 20:19, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] to user:212.234.92.35

I have left messages at your ip talkpage, which you may not have seen (click the blue link in header).

Thanks for all the inline cites added. You obviously know how to edit in the WP style. Are you able to go through the rest of the article and do the same there? It really would help, even though your contributions are already proving useful. Thanks. LessHeard vanU 20:33, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] minor revert war in intro

I don't see the point of merely reverting disputed content. If there is an argument that it doesn't belong in the intro then surely placing in the appropriate place is the answer (or at least part of the discussion)? I am aware of the identity of 212.234.92.35; or at least I have spoken to him in the forum of of one of the Siouxsie internet sites/forums we both belong to. I know he is very knowledgable about the band and has a lot of literature from which he can provide cites and stuff. I would urge editors to allow everyone a go at adding content, and would point out that bad faith reverting (and no attempt at discussion) is not part of the wiki-way. LessHeard vanU 22:08, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Free image

I will make a request at some band fansites I belong to for pictures. Hopefully something will be gifthorsed. LessHeard vanU 22:56, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Moved here from article

[edit] Miscellanea

[edit] When Sid got his name

According to the Sid Vicious article, the surname part came after the Nick Kent chain whipping event - although he was already known as Sid by some after Rottens hamster. Sioux, Severin and Pirroni would have known him as John or maybe Sid, but not as Vicious which he first used when he was putting together the Flowers of Romance. If it is to be changed from this long standing version you will need a cited source. LessHeard vanU 19:57, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Musical Genre

Greetings from the goth side, Wikipedia. I'd like to point of that, while Siouxsie and the Banshees' styles are many; their most infulential nature in styling and fame is within my subculture, goth. Granted; some of their songs have a pop- feel; yet their spotlightted aesthetic still is clearly Gothic. On the topic regarding 'labels' one can still argue that the Banshees are a band remaining unclassified. Sure, some of their songs can be cited as punk as well. Yet those within the punk movment (such as Paul Cook of the Sex Pistols) agree that Siouxsie and the Banshees are the founders of goth music. Of course Bauhaus is the original, yet this band has the same speciality within it. The punk movment, whether enthusasits of the music or bands on their own boundries; noticed the Banshees' introducing of new stylings to punk music. Play Join Hands and The Bollocks at the same time. Even then there's a certain melodic feeling toward their gloomy and brooding music. Even post-punk held out of place aesthetics and music (with the sole espection of Joy Division), differing from Siouxsie and the Banshees. Hear Sexgang Children, Specimen, and even Bauhaus. Clearly the influence of this band is displayed. And proudly. So please, I'd like some of you to think of my subculture, goth, and the Banshees' eternal influence on it. This clearly is the style the band projected from the late 70s to even the 90s. While some will disagree, the lyrics, style, and legend of Siouxsie and the Banshees is most definatley not a 'POP' band. Despite some of their songs (yet a limited number) having that sound toward it. Goth Forever (unsigned comment moved from top of page, September 6 2007)

I'll modify the piece of text that says they're a punk/post-punk band, an that they also encompass goth and alternative... I think it should say that they're mainly a Post-Punk/Goth band AND that they also encompassed punk and alternative (although I think alternative is a stupid label, and there's no need in using it, but I'll keep it). The Banshees are one of the three main gothic rock bands, and it's like saying that Blondie is a punk band, which also encompassed New Wave. Siouxsie started as a Punk band, but I think they became post-punk/gothic very quickly. Even in first albums like "The Scream" you can't say they were strictly punk rock. If anyone thinks different, comment here, I'm open to different opinions, and I might be wrong. Phibrizoq 23:30, 22 October 2006 (UTC)


Any comments about the recent edit that added the Shirley Manson quote? I'd say her opinion is not so relevant as to be worthy of inclusion. I'd suggest something like: While the band, and many others (ref to Shirley Manson) don't consider the band true goth, they are nevertheless pillars of that genre. The Creatures would be more aptly described as art/experimental. Wwwhatsup 18:44, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
Good goth. Listen people, the Shirley Manson quote is not relevant. Why the hell put that in there? She is, of all, the WORST persont to have quoted in this article. Why is it people care what "celebs" think of this band? That quote is textbook irrelevance, really.

I am saying this: As a goth, I see clearly there influence on my scene. Sure, they have their credit toward the punk movment; but a friend of mine who is from that era directly SAW their evolution. Those in the punk movment as I stated, identify this as a goth rock band. I don't really care of what Shirley Money-Maker Manson thinks of us, I just want justice to be given credit.

They will not be remembered as foremost as a punk band, nor will they as a so-called "unclassable" band; because as stated ONCE AGAIN, the majority goth bands before 1983 cite Siouxsie and the Banshees as an influence, and in their music it's clear. The things Siouxsie wore had a punk influence, granted, but not quite as punk as, let's say, The Pistols.


Please, whoever made this uneeded quote remove it now. No one will care. I don't, and many others don't either. It gives no explaination of the band. The only it'd be there is if SM was a member of The Banshees, which I highly doubt. And to hell with "Garbage" and Manson; they have no authority to judge this band. Ugh. Will Siouxsie be remembered as a punk icon? No. Will Budgie? I don't think so. Is Kaliedescope and JuJu "nEWxWave?" You're kidding.

According to Pete Scathe, they also described their album Join Hands as Gothic, and Steven admits to it. Hell, I even think Siouxsie's "denial" is visible lies; because the music and aesthetic is what truthfully makes a band goth rock. And if you're gonna shut it off with this limiting "POP" label; then so help me Wikipedia will have the most laughable reputation since when it was accused of having the CIA edit the articles. Goth Forever

[edit] Discography

I've restored the partial discography on the main page as it is standard practice for there to be a limited one even when there is a separate discography article and a navbox at the bottom of the main artist's article. You can see this by looking at FA-class biography articles for musicians. --JD554 (talk) 13:11, 28 May 2008 (UTC)