Talk:Sinking of Prince of Wales and Repulse

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So were the Japanese planes land-based or did they come from one or more aircraft carriers? It'd be good if the article had a little more detail on that point. Thanks. — RJH 18:35, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

I've always read these were Imperial Japanese Navy land-based torpedo bombers.PHG 21:43, 24 August 2005 (UTC)
I think they came from Vichy French Indo-China (Vietnam), which the Japanese had taken over. I'll check it up and try and find a ref. Wiki-Ed 09:11, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

Wreath drop? Was the wreath dropped to honor the British fight or to honor the two planes from the pilot's squadron, shot down by Repulse? The reason cited sounds very "after the fact." Bushido courtesy, across belligerant & service lines (in this case, pilots v. sailors), was a rare thing, I gather. ~~ Howard. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.103.170.250 (talk) 19:30, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Japanese bombers

There were 86 aircraft from a squadron that was based in Saigon.

  • I added the next detail: the aircrafts was Mitsubishi G3M2 "Nell" (Attack bomber type 96 of Navy,Mark 22)from Mihoro Kokutai,22nd Koku Sentai and Mitsubishi G4M1(Attack bomber type 1 of Navy,Mark 11)of Kanoya Kokutai,21 Koku Sentai,both groups under led of 11th Koku Kantai(Land Based Bomber group)with Base in Saigon.from these air groups,ones 126 was preparing to Torpedo striking,but only 94 was ordered to take off for battle,also support by Mitsubishi C5M2 "Babs"recon plane.
  • including added why the Mitsubishi G3M "Nell" identified "M- 323"(Bomber N° 23,part of Mihoro Group(M)) are part of Mihoro Kokutai s Strike force in such attack.
  • Other versions say about such attack was realized for GenzanKokutai(G4M) and Takao Kokutai(G3M), both groups posted units in Saigon too.
  • There is an interview with a Captain Sonokawa, Kameo, IJN who was Flight Leader of Genzan Air Corps, the complete text of it is available on the Force Z Survivors Association Website Click on 'Pilots Eye View' --Andy Wade 20:04, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Picture Image:H60566.jpg

With reference to the picture:

Attack on HMS Prince of Wales and HMS Repulse.
Attack on HMS Prince of Wales and HMS Repulse.

It has been described thus: This image is a work of a sailor or employee of the U.S. Navy, taken or made during the course of the person's official duties. As a work of the U.S. federal government, the image is in the public domain.

I think this is a little bit tenuous to say the least, as it is clearly not the work of a US Navy employee, but a member of the Imperial Japanese Navy. It was taken at the time of the first wave of the attack on HMS Repulse. Does the US Navy having the right to publish it (possibly with permission), mean that Wikipedia does also? I'd like to see the right to publish it explained a little bit better or I think the picture should be removed. --Andy Wade 21:40, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

The photo is tagged with both the U.S. government public domain and the Japanese public domain tags because it falls under both. The photo was taken by a Japanese government employee so it's public domain under Japanese copyright law. The photo was also included in the large body of documents confiscated by U.S. government administrators during the Allied occupation of Japan immediately after the war and placed in the U.S. National Archives which makes it public domain of the U.S. government also. Both tags are therefore appropriate. Cla68 23:07, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Kriegsmarine

There should be a mention of the nazis in the article. It was solely because of the need to watch over the hiding Tirpitz battleship that the british were unable to assign an aircraft carrier to provide fighter umbrella for the Z fleet. If the Tirpitz did not exist, HMS PoW and Repulse would have survived with the help of a CV and its fighter planes. 82.131.210.162 12:13, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Actually, Indomitable had been allocated to cover Force Z (Battleship by Martin Middlebrook and Patrick Mahoney), but ran aground whilst working up in the Caribbean. At this time, Tirpitz wasn't even in Norway and hadn't sortied. Emoscopes Talk 12:23, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
It would not be too fanciful to imagine that Indomitable would have been sunk as well if it had been present. If Force Z had survived it would have to have contended with a much larger IJN force which visited the region a few months later. Wiki-Ed 14:49, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
True, carriers are vulnerable to land-based aircraft forces which was the case in this situation. Plus, as you pointed out, Japan's large carrier fleet paid the area a visit a couple of months later. Cla68 23:10, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Casualty figures

The casualty figures in the articles on the Prince of Wales, Repulse and the sinking of both ships do not agree with one-another (Eg. According the article on Repulse more survivors were rescued from the ship than were in its complement, and >300 died). I have no idea what the correct figures are and since there are no in-line citations it's impossible to work out where the data has come from. Does anyone have verifiable information on the complement of each ship and the number that perished in December 41? Wiki-Ed 13:20, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Hi Wiki-Ed, the official figures are in dispute, and have been for many years. The Prince of Wales and Repulse Survivors Association maintains that it is a total of 840 (for both ships), but the 'official' records show that it is less than this, and despite several attempts to verify the correct figures, no one has yet come up with a verifiable count. The main reason for this is that it is believed that several men who were drafted aboard the ships when they sank were only registered aboard the ships, and these records went down with the ships. Any other records were lost/destroyed when Singapore fell some months later in February 1942. Anecdotal evidence from survivors has names not 'officially' listed as being aboard during the sinkings. And they would not forget this in a hurry I guess.
The best available list I know of is the one I maintain on the Force Z Survivors Association website, complied from official lists and records from the Survivors Association. All names on the lists have been verified with the Commonwealth War Graves Commission database, and they have figures of 328 for HMS Prince of Wales and 435 for HMS Repulse, which makes for a total of 763. Clearly this is unacceptable but in the absence of any verifiable lists it's all we have. Whilst the association does dispute the official figures it only has the official names on the website. I have not had any access to the alleged missing names, or I would add them to the lists with a caveat against each name.
Part of the problem is that men who are listed as serving at Singapore's Naval Base were actually aboard the ships, and so they have 'HMS Sultan' appearing against their names on the CWGC database. Cue confusion.--Andy Wade 16:32, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

HMS Indomitable: -anomaly-

Main article - also with reference to 'Kreigsmarine' section, in discussion above.

The aircraft carrier Indomitable may have been nominated as the air-defence component of force Z, ( the battleships Prince of Wales & Repulse ) but, given the times of events and distances involved, it seems doubtful that Indomitable would ever have been able to rendevous with the other warships at Singapore in early December of 1941. With the Indomitable in the vicinity of Kingston, Jamaica, on November 3rd, it is questionable whether it could have reached Singapore by December 10th. - even if the grounding damage to the aircraft carrier had never occurred. There may have been some preliminary planning for the Indomitable to join the Far-East task force at an unspecified later date. However, the fact that the aircraft carrier was delayed, as a result to grounding damage on November 3rd, was never a contributory factor in the eventual loss of the two capital ships on December 10th.

Using the actual voyage of HMS. Prince of Wales as a comparison, the time taken to reach Singapore, from the UK, was thirty nine days (24th. October to 2nd December 1941). The distance from the Clyde, in Scotland, to Singapore, is similar to the distance between Kingston, Jamaica and Singapore, - via the Cape of Good Hope. (the distance from Kingston is about a hundred miles more.) Allowing for the days spent at re-fueling ports en-route, the time taken for the Prince of Wales' voyage suggests that the greater part of the route was traversed at economical cruising speed. Assuming that the grounding of Indomitable never happened, and that on November 3rd. the ship received orders to proceed to Singapore, then a likely date for arrival would have been December 12th. - given that that Indomitable would have followed much the same route as that taken by the Prince of Wales.

In theory, if Indomitable had received urgent orders, the time required to reach Singapore could have been reduced - perhaps by choosing a more direct route, via either Panama or Suez. Increased speed might also have shortened the duration of the voyage. However, in the circumstances of the time, those speculative options would seem to lack credibility. (Selecting either of the canal transits would have been a gift to spies acting for Axis naval intelligence. Increased speed on the voyage would have involved very complex logistics for re-fueling points and escort vessels. )

Leaving the speculation aside, it isn't clear why Indomitable wasn't ordered to join the Prince of Wales, en-route, - long before the grounding occurred. One possibile location for a rendevous would have been at Freetown, Sierra Leone. The battleship was there about November 6th. 1941. J.Fowler —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.145.241.235 (talk) 15:54, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] No Allied Capital Ships?

The article claims that after Pearl Harbor and the loss of Force Z, there were no Allied capital ships left in the Pacific. What about Lexington, Saratoga, and Enterprise? They were still operating in the Pacific, as the Japanese would soon learn all too well. I am thinking of editing the article to reflect the fact that there were still 3 American capital ships left in-theater.--SpudHawg948 10:47, 4 December 2007 (UTC)