Talk:Singlish/2003-2004 archive

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Splitting the page

The following page is rather long. Can someone who has some technical knowledge/expertise on splitting pages on Wikipedia do the relevant stuffs...(split this discussion into page one and two//and pls, to the person editing: please dont delete other people's contribution inappropriately. Thank You)

Putting an end to the Singlish debate

First, one has to look at history. Most of the time, language campaigns all over the world are politically motivated. Singlish was discouraged as the government feels that the English locals speak should be understood globally. However, we have to understand that Singlish can be a part of our culture. Let me give you an example:

A long time ago, Latin was used all throughout Europe. It was the "global" language at that time in the Old World. As there was no globalisation back then, all inter-state development was slow. But life went on. Language is the means of communication. With the exposure of the Latin language, Europeans assimilated it into their culture and various Romance Languages (French, Spanish, Catalan, Portuguese, Italian, etc.) were formed. It is unfortunate/fortunate that Singlish is "developing" at a time were we now communicate globally. And Standard English is the norm.

Please do not get frustrated over the Singlish debate. The many various stands and viewpoints that exists among Singaporeans. Definitely. Period.

Singlish as a backward language and corrupted form of English

In the beginning, the immigrants (especially the Chinese) to Singapore and Malaysia had difficulties with English pronunciation due to lack of proper education. Nowdays, youngsters in Singapore and Malaysia are given proper education but yet, many had not changed. They continue to adopt the corrupted form of English by their ancestors. What made them even worse - they are proud of it too!!

Singlish is barrier to learn proper English. Those who learn standard English had problem understand Singlish. Although, there are difference between Australian and American English, but Singlish does not differ to standard English in such way. One wonders why one choose to speak Singlish at all, if it cannot be understood by English speakers around the world.

Utter crap. I am sure you have done an intensive research on the effects of Singlish on Singaporeans learning English.

One should consider that Singlish is a backward language because it adopted the mistakes of spoken English by early Chinese, who never had the time, the chance nor the ability to learn standard English. Today, children in Singapore and Malaysia were given such opportunities.

Besides, Singlish, for many foreigners, Singlish is an annoying and digusting language. Not only speaking it gives the impression to foreigners that Singaporeans or Malaysian did not learn to speak standard English, but it gives foreigners the chance to laugh at the stupidity of Singapore and Malaysia. Speaking Singlish does not enjoy the same prestige of English as the following pointed out:

Singlish is a layman's (usually negatively charged) term that could mean any of the following:

1. Colloquial Singapore English that is used in informal contexts by someone who is highly competent in educated Singaporean English or Standard Singapore English.

2. Lower (mesolectal and basilectal) varieties of Singapore English used by the less competent speakers, producing utterances such as "He my teacher", "Why you say me until like that?", and "I got no enough money". Interlanguage or developmental varieties of English produced by some language learners at the beginning stages.

3. Standard English is taken to mean English that is internationally acceptable in formal contexts. In other words, someone speaking Standard English should be understood easily by educated English speakers all over the world.

Wah hao, did you get that from the Speak Good English site? But I added a Politics section to record the Garmen's disapproval of Singlish.
--Jpatokal 18 Nov 2003


Singlish - a way of celebrating European colonisation?

Uhh, no, I did not get it from the Speak Good English site. I am not even a Singaporean. But this is just common sense.

No it isn't just "common sense". Are you a certified historian of Singlish? Because you really are talking cock. A lot of it. And as an immature non-Singaporean, it is no wonder you do not know of Singlish's purpose and usage in culture, and you even go on to assume a lot of incorrect "common sense".

The Singaporean government used English as a medium in the early years, mainly due to the composition of multi-ethnical society. It was also a way to curb the Chinese Chauvinism, so that Singapore will not be a part of China. However, the majority of the ethnic Chinese in Singapore and Malaysia soon took this into the wrong context. Speaking English means to enjoying the "upper class prestige". Those who didn't learn standard English merely use English words to make up a sentence in Chinese grammar, so that they are not lacking behind or being look down at.

There are many countries in this world which do not use English as their language, but they are still doing really well. Germany, France and closer to the Asiatic mainland - Japan. What do the Chinese in Singapore and Malaysia speaks? Some ethnic Chinese even go as far as not to learn to speak their mother tongue - Chinese, but rather they chose to speak Singlish?

For some, speaking English can be seen as a way of celebrating British colonisation. Many Chinese do not think that the British had done bad deeds to their countries because the British had serve their interest well during the colonisation period - money and work. But one could look further how the British actually systematically exploited the resources of Malaysia and Singapore. The Chinese and Indian were mere slaves of their economy power house, while the Malays were completely useless to them, who only served as puppets. Colonisation is such a brutal process.

Let's admit this fact. We are ethnic Chinese / Indian / Malays, no matter how much good standard English we have learnt. We have to protect our own culture, instead of promoting other's culture. We need to understand our own culture more than we understand someone else's in order to learn who we really are. Promoting someone else's culture will see Singapore lost their own native culture. One may look at how the Asian in the USA lost their culture. But they are still not an integrated bunch within the white majority society. Racism is always there.

To those Singaporeans or Malaysians who cherish Singlish or whatever one wishes to call it. These people are mere a confused bunch.

(You should not insult people who wish to use a different form of English. It is a personal choice. Please remove your comment about Singaporeans or Malaysians being a confused bunch.)

Mmm, but other countries also have their own form of local "broken english" used for informal occasions. It is really inevitable that the meeting and clashing of languages would lead to such mishmash of spoken dialects. I think it is also how new languages are formed(some of these mixed languages have even been officially regconised! An example is 'Bislama', a creole language with words from English, French and various other languages; and a similar but different syntax from its parent languages. It is a national language of Vanuatu). It is like evolution of languages, when something that means this currently, can mean that in a hundred years. For example, the word 'gay'. The original meaning a hundred years ago is 'happy', 'joyous'. Now, it has also taken on an additional meaning of 'homosexual'.

I do not understand why you rant at Singlish in this way. If speaking Singapore English instead of Standard English was such a bad thing, Singapore wouldn't thrive the way it does. Besides, before complaining about Singaporeans' English, you should mind your own grammar on this page. I am no Singaporean. But I come from another small (albeit European) country that has also achieved a higher per capita GDP than all its neighbours. And guess what? We use our own, unique dialect of German, that no German understands. It helps us keep up our culture and identity as a nation instead of giving it up to become a nameless sub-entity of a greater German-speaking area. IMHO, Singaporeans should treasure their Singlish, which lets them express their culture in their own English. Teaching of Standard English should of course go on and be further improved, so the ideal state of having a truly diglossic community will come closer.

Singlish for foreigners?

Oh by the way, I did not see any foreigners wanting to learn Singlish. Nor is the Singaporean government attempting to protect it.

I'm Dutch and I like Singlish. I've picked up a smattering of it when I was over there. It an interesting example of language evolution in action, and quite accessible if you know English. Not to mention frequently amusing. I'm not alone in that -- my Singaporean friends seem to enjoy speaking Singlish in part because it's amusing to them.

Other parts of the dialect come naturally. I haven't noticed it significantly hindering my understanding when people speak Singlish to me, unless they deliberately set out to confuse me by throwing in 5 new words every sentence. Then again I may have an ear for it where others don't.

To claim that those who cherish Singlish are a confused bunch is pretty odd. People have been raised speaking Singlish. You may complain about the choice of their parents, and I realize the use of language is often politically loaded, but it is still a language/dialect, and what's wrong with cherishing the language you grew up with?

Apart from that of course I wouldn't want to discourage anyone from learning a more standard form of English, or any other language that they are interested in.

-- Martijn Faassen


What is wrong, is that Singlish is being used as an inappropriate substitute for English.

Incorrect. In formal contexts, most Singaporeans are smart enough to switch to proper English. You can't possibly expect our oral examinations to be conducted in Singlish do you?

The big problem arises when Singlish is used to reply to an English sentence or query.

Would you answer in French questions that are posed in English? It would be rude in most cases.

WHAT cases? It is not uncommon for a Singaporean to answer a Chinese question in proper English. And also, "rude" would be dependent on the context.

Singlish has both a different vocabulary and a different grammar from English. We have to keep this in mind. Singlish and English are effectively two different languages. For some reason, many Singlish users do not realise this.

WHAT reason? And also, even if they are two different languages as you claim, there is nothing wrong with that, unless YOU are like one of those monolingual ang mohs. I can ask my Malay friend a question in Malay and he can reply in English, and I can speak to my classmate in Japanese which he replies in Chinese.

"Speak English, not Singlish!"

Speaking Good English

Excerpt: Speech by Senior Minister Lee Kuan Yew at the Tanjong Pagar 34th National Day Celebration, 14 Aug 1999


Standard English vs Singlish On this subject of education, let me state clearly the disadvantages of Singlish. There are as many varieties of English as there are communities that speak English. In spite of differences in accent and pronunciation, people in Britain, America, Canada, Australia and New Zealand understand each other easily because they are speaking the same language, using the same words with the same grammar and sentence structures. Singaporeans add Chinese and Malay words into Singlish, and give different meanings to English words like "blur" to mean "blank". Worse, Singlish uses Chinese sentence structure. In fact we are creating a different new language. Each family can create its own coded language; nothing wrong with that except that no one outside the family can understand you. We are learning English so that we can understand the world and the world can understand us.


It is therefore important to speak and write standard English. The more the media makes Singlish socially acceptable, by popularising it in TV shows, the more we make people believe that they can get by with Singlish. This will be a disadvantage to the less educated half of the population. The better educated can learn two or three varieties of English and can speak English English to native Englishmen or Americans, standard English to foreigners who speak standard English, and Singlish to less-educated Singaporeans. Unfortunately, if the less educated half of our people end up learning to speak only Singlish, they will suffer economically and socially. They want to speak better English, not Singlish. Those Singaporeans who can speak good English should help to create a good environment for speaking English, rather than advocate, as some do, the use of Singlish.


Let me tell you what we did about Mandarin. Twenty-five years ago, we decided that we would not speak a special Singapore Mandarin, pronounced with Hokkien, Teochew or Cantonese accents, and with Malay words thrown in. To set the standard, I had our announcers on radio and television and school teachers retrained by teachers from Taiwan who spoke standard Mandarin. We also hired a few announcers for TV and radio from Taiwan to set the pace. Because we used standard Mandarin on TV, radio, and with teachers in schools, we now have a generation of young Singaporeans able to speak more of a standard Mandarin. The Chinese-speaking world outside Singapore can understand us.


We must take the same approach with English. Get our teachers retrained. Do not popularise Singlish. Do not use Singlish in our television sitcoms, except for humorous bits, and in a way that makes people want to speak standard English. We will see a difference in another one generation. The people who will benefit most are those who can only master one kind of English. Singlish is a handicap we must not wish on Singaporeans.


I want to comment. I just started reading about Singlish. I have a few linguistics notions. I see a powerful newborn that has the potential to largely replace the English of the "Anglo World Empire". I find it ironic that Officialdom is not seizing this tool and promoting it and turning out outward. It could be the vehicle for Asian economic expansion. The world needs more nice vowels sounds. And a grammar with the grace to mention the topic up-front. -- mlh

Your PM Goh said: Communicating with the World

Speaking Good English

Excerpt: National Day Rally Speech 1999 by Prime Minister Goh Chok Tong, 22 Aug 1999


Communicating with the World

Most of our pupils still come from non-English speaking homes. For them, English is really a second language, to be learnt almost like a foreign language, and not their mother tongue. For them to master just one version of English is already quite a challenge. If they get into the habit of speaking Singlish, then later they will either have to unlearn these habits, or learn proper English on top of Singlish. Many pupils will find this too difficult. They may end up unable to speak any language properly, which would be a tragedy.

Gurmit Singh can speak many languages. But Phua Chu Kang speaks only Singlish. If our children learn Singlish from Phua Chu Kang, they will not become as talented as Gurmit Singh.

We learn English in order to communicate with the world. The fact that we use English gives us a big advantage over our competitors. Parents send children to English language schools rather than Chinese, Malay, or Tamil schools, because they hope the children will get jobs and opportunities when they grow up. But to become an engineer, a techni­cian, an accountant or a nurse, you must have standard English, not Singlish.

We don’t have to speak English with British, American, or Australian accents. Most of us speak with a Singaporean accent. We are so used to hearing it that we probably don’t notice it. But we should speak a form of English that is understood by the British, Americans, Australians, and people around the world.

Nicholas Lee, who plays Ronnie Tan in Under One Roof, wrote a letter in The Straits Times (1 Jun 99) which hit the nail on the head. He had been criticised because Ronnie Tan did not speak Singlish. His reply was that the programme Under One Roof was shown overseas as well as in Singa­pore. Programme series are very expensive to make. If they are only shown in Singa­pore, they will surely lose money. If the characters spoke Singlish, viewers overseas would not understand it.

Nicholas Lee cited one local production, Forever Fever, which could not be released in the United States market because American audiences would not understand the Singa­pore English. So now they are considering removing the Singlish, and dubbing Forever Fever in English that Americans can understand. His conclusion was: “We should all be aware that the only way forward is to look outward, and if the future of Singa­pore entertainment lies in ‘Beng culture’, then I am afraid it is a very bleak culture.”

What Nicholas Lee said about sitcoms applies to many other activities. Whether we are publishing a newspaper, writing a company report, or composing a song, does it make more sense to do so for a 3 million audience, or for the hundreds of millions who speak English around the world? We cannot be a first-world economy or go global with Singlish.

Pidgin English

Singapore is not unique in having a local flavour to the English it uses. Local types of English often sprout up in places where non-English speakers come into contact with English speakers, or where people speaking different tongues use simple English as a common language to communicate with each other. These languages are called pidgin English, or Creole. Eventually pidgin develops into a new language, which uses many English words, but mixed with non-English words, and using different grammar.

Different kinds of pidgin English or Creole is spoken in Africa, in the Caribbean, and in the South Pacific. For example, in Jamaica they say: “Him go a school every day last year; now sometime him go, sometime him no go” [Jamaican Creole]. In Samoa when a person is very ill, he says “Mi siksik” [Samoan Plantation Pidgin English].

These examples are not to make fun of anyone. This is simply the way people speak in these countries. The examples have a serious lesson for us: if we carry on using Singlish, the logical final outcome is that we too will develop our own type of pidgin English, spoken only by 3 million Singapo­reans, which the rest of the world will find quaint but incompre­hensible. We are already half-way there. Do we want to go all the way? We would be better off sticking to Chinese, Malay or Tamil; then at least some other people in the world can understand us.

I know that many of us do not speak English perfectly. We studied in Chinese, Malay or Tamil schools, or came from non-English speaking homes even though we went to English schools. We cannot help it, and it is nothing to be ashamed of. But we should nurture the next generation to have higher standards of English than ourselves. We can help them by discouraging the use of Singlish, or at least not encouraging it.

Upgrading English in Schools


Schools already organise many programmes and activities to encourage the use of proper English. They have Speak English Campaigns, they fine pupils caught speaking Singlish, and they run speech and drama programmes to promote good English.

The Ministry of Education (MOE) has been working hard to upgrade standards of English in schools. First, it is revising the English Language syllabuses, to make them more rigorous and to strengthen the teaching of grammar.

Second, MOE will conduct a 60-hour course for 8,000 teachers who teach English Language in primary and secondary schools, to strengthen and update their skills. The course will lead to the award of the Singapore-Cambridge Certificate in the Teaching of English Grammar.

Third, MOE is working with the Regional Language Centre to produce a handbook on common errors in English usage in Singapore.

MOE gave me some examples of improper written English found in schools:

“He is very sporting” to mean “He is very active in sports”.

“I became boring” when the writer meant “I became bored”.

“He turned into a new leaf” instead of “He turned over a new leaf”.

As for spoken English, how about this: “Quick, quick. Late already. You eat yourself, we eat ourself”.

Phua Chu Kang

One of the problems MOE has getting students to speak standard English is that the students often hear Singlish being spoken around them, including on television. So they learn wrong ways of speaking.

Teachers complain that their students are picking up catchphrases like: “Don’t pray, pray” and using them even in the classroom. The students may think that it is acceptable and even fashionable to speak like Phua Chu Kang. He is on national television and a likeable, ordinary person. The only character who tries to speak proper English is Phua Chu Kang’s sister-in-law Margaret, and she is a snob. Nobody wants to be a snob. So in trying to imitate life, Phua Chu Kang has made the teaching of proper English more difficult.

I asked TCS why Phua Chu Kang’s English is so poor. They told me that Phua Chu Kang started off speaking quite good English, but as time passed he forgot what he learnt in school, and his English went from bad to worse.

I therefore asked TCS to try persuading Phua Chu Kang to attend NTUC’s BEST classes, to improve his English. TCS replied that they have spoken to Phua Chu Kang, and he has agreed to enrol himself for the next BEST programme, starting in a month’s time. If Phua Chu Kang can improve himself, surely so can the rest of us.

Particles

Thanks everyone! :D

Now that the article is kinda done, there are a few things that I'm not sure about. The examples need to be checked for nativeness, and I'm not that sure about the particles.

So far I'm pretty unsure about what I wrote for the following particles:

  • lah
  • hoh
  • leh
  • ah

And there are a few that I haven't felt confident enough to describe:

  • leh (with falling tone)
  • hah / huh (rising and nasalized)
  • ah (sentence final)
  • liao
  • laidat (like-that)

So if anyone has any ideas about any of the above, please post something here, or just go ahead and edit the main article. And if you find an example that is obviously NOT something a Singaporean would say, just change it. (Yep, thanks bicoherent for that edit.)

ran 20:44, Apr 22, 2004 (UTC)

I hope others can contribute to the particles section. To me this is one of the most intriguing aspects of Singaporean. I'm tempted to use the word 'unique', which Singaporeans seem to use when they encounter something unusual. By the way, just curious, Ran, are you Singaporean yourself or a (very) keen observer? I'm obviously not Singaporean, myself. :) Martijn faassen 21:11, 22 Apr 2004 (UTC)

A keen observer. :P I've lived in Singapore for some years, and learned to speak Singlish reasonably convincingly. ran 21:37, Apr 22, 2004 (UTC)

Very impressive. Martijn faassen 21:33, 4 May 2004 (UTC)

Re: "X or not", you describe this as "in-your-face" which is indeed how a native English speaker reacts to it... but in Chinese it's more polite to ask eg. "yao bu yao" (want or not want) than "ni yao ma?" (you want?), and this is reflected into the English. Brusque Singlish uses "you want ah?" for a less polite question. Jpatokal 06:01, 28 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Thanks Jpatokal, I've made the correction.

How about Dun? It's used several times in the particles section, but the definition is not very clear. Is it a particle in its own right, or a contraction, maybe? The examples 'Dun have, lah!' and 'Dun know oreddy, lah!' might be improved by giving their meaning as well as the context in which they would be used.

It's "don't", spelt to reflect local pronunciation. I wouldn't consider it to be something unique to Singlish... -- ran (talk) 12:38, July 19, 2005 (UTC)
Actually more of MSN lingo lor.. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 165.21.154.89 (talk) 10:48, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Soccer?

Just a very pedantic point that may not be hugely relevant. The esteemed author gives the use of "soccer" as an example of Singaporean English's mixing of English and American usages. Singaporeans old enough to remember the '50s and '60s may correct me, but I suspect that soccer is actually an preservation of colonial English usage rather than an American borrowing.

Let me quote the author of the Football (soccer) entry, which I just looked up to check my understanding of the topic:

In the late 19th century the word soccer tended to be used only at public schools; most people knew the game simply as football. Today the term association football is rarely used, although some clubs still include Association Football Club (AFC) in their name. The game is sometimes known colloquially as footie; the term footer was also once used but is now obsolete.

Backing this account up, the British editions of the satiric Molesworth books, which are set in a lousy postwar English public school, use the term "soccer" exclusively. Hence, I suspect Soccer may be either derive from those public schoolboy imperialists or from English-stream schooling during the colonial period.

Apologies for the weird formatting. Don't know what's up with this browser.

Anyway, the point is, perhaps there's a more certain US derivation to use as an example?

I've fixed your formatting, hopefully without affecting what you meant. -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 20:52, 17 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Idioms

I question "ice water" as a Singlish idiom... it is not idiomatic. It means the exact same thing in AE. --Dante Alighieri | Talk 22:11, Dec 17, 2004 (UTC)