Talk:Singapore gay history
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Where is the title for this page? It seems to have lost one along the way, also violates the standard of boldfacing the title at the start of the first paragraph. Jmacwiki (talk) 02:59, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
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This article looks at Singapore history from a novel angle, one that has not been allowed to be expressed for many decades in the local media.
Much of the information was obtained via discussions with homosexuals presently in their 50's who are not computer literate. Groyn88 13:26, 19 May 2005 (UTC)
- Shoudln't the title of this article be: History of Homosexuality in Singapore or even Gay History of Singapore. The title is rather awkward. PRueda29 01:53, 27 September 2005 (UTC)
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[edit] Link to Future Signapore Gay History
What is with the link to the non-existant Article regarding the years beyond 2010? This is 2005, and as such I don't see the point of having a link to the future page. Tsubasa 10:21, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Wikipedia is not the playground for PLU advocacy or speculation
[edit] Historical records
There exist no known written records of same-sex love in pre-colonial Singapore and hence by corollary there exist no known oppression of same-sex lovers in pre-colonial Singapore.
We cannot extrapolate that homosexuality existed in precolonial Malays. This is pure speculation.
- Homosexuality has existed in ALL societies since the dawn of human evolution and is seen even in the animal kingdom, as all primatologists who witness Bonobo behaviour can attest to. Malay society is no exception.
Effeminate men are derisively called... is irrelevant to the heading of "Pre-British era". It belongs in your Singapore gay terminology article and should remain there.
With the advent of British colonisation and the imposition of their legal system which criminalised sodomy, there must have been instances where flagrant gay sex citations, otherwise this is merely your speculation. You do realise that every time you edit a wiki, the disclaimer below your edit box says Content must be based on verifiable sources?
- I have met many octogenarians who indulged in homosexual sex in public toilets and parks in their youth. Much of history is passed on orally. Do you expect them to record their activities on paper when such admissions would have invited prosecution or severe censure?
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- Not good enough. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a peer-reviewed journal or even a popular magazine. That why the policy states "no original research", which is just what you're falling back on. The point of the policy is, the reader has to be able to trust that the information comes from a "reliable, published source" (in the words of WP's NOR policy page) -- which is impossible with your original research. If you conducted this research carefully, and you feel it deserves public availability, then get an article published about it. Wikipedia is simply not the place for that work. If the content depends on this research, then the content needs to be removed. Jmacwiki (talk) 03:50, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Bret Hinsch
Ben Hinsch's book on Hokkien institutionalised gay marriage is interesting. It deals with Ming China, not Singapore. As you admit, you don't know and can't verify whether the subculture got imported to Singaopre. So, paragraph is irrelevant.
- Firstly, the author's name is "Bret Hinsch" and not "Ben Hinsch" as you incorrectly wrote. Secondly, I and some gay friends of mine are prime examples of the continued practice of this aspect of Hokkien culture. I was adopted into my lover's family years ago in a ceremony before his ancestral altar involving offerings of food, and have been regarded since then as my "mother-in-law's" godson. Everyone in his family knows that we are lovers and I am accepted as part of the family.
[edit] Homosexuality in the Indian community
Northern Indian 'maasti' or sexual play between men who were not necessarily gay must have been widespread with the paucity of women and also well-tolerated by the local community. Again, citations? Otherwise this is just speculation.
- There is an article in the Yawning Bread website which contains an archive of a SiGNeL post by "Mr. and Mrs. Pussy" which describes in detail the practice of maasti in the area stretching from Tekka Market all the way along Serangoon Road [1].
[edit] Cross-dressing in Peranakan culture
In Peranakan or Baba culture, male-to-female cross-dressing was often indulged in for fun or for performances. The context of cross-dressing in plays is not related to homosexuality, hence irrelevant to article and topic. Try Elizabethan theatre, Chinese opera instead.
- In the lay straight Singaporean mind unfamiliar with gender terminology, there is often confusion between "transgender" and "gay". Thus, this example was included for comprehensiveness. Moreover, many otherwise masculine homosexuals would feign effeminate behaviour and even dress effeminately in order to attract heterosexual cruisers who may otherwise have been put off by their masculinity, an activity witness at Queen Elizabeth Walk and the old Esplanade.
[edit] The Japanese occupation
Unbeknownst to all save the elite few who possessed a knowledge of Japanese culture either through erudition or travel, homosexuality suddenly became legitimate. Citations. Did the elite few make use of the newfound legitimacy of homosexuality to practise gay sex? Did the occupying army promote or provoke homosexuality in Singapore. Otherwise this is irrelevant.
- This sentence does not need citations. It is a well known fact that homosexual sex is not a criminal offence, nor even regarded as morally offensive in Japan. This is totally relevant because of the 180-degree turn in the legal environment regarding homosexuality during the Japanese occupation.
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- This "well known fact" was completely unknown to me. Admittedly, I am no expert on Japan, nor on the legal & social norms related to homosexuality among the world's past & present cultures, nor on Singapore. I am, however, probably better educated & better read than most users of Wikipedia. So that sentence DEFINITELY needs a citation! Jmacwiki (talk) 02:59, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
On Sook Ching: but also any able-bodied, good-looking male in the prime of his life. Actually according to historical accounts and wikipedia, the Japanese shot discriminately, and no, they did not conduct the massacre to remove threats to their genetic and physical superiority. This is rubbish. Thus, in one fell swoop, the strong and handsome were culled - again, the Japanese army shot indiscriminately. According to most historical accounts except yours.
- You obviously have not read any books on Sook Ching. The Kempeitai used hooded informants to point out anti-Japanese informants who had to remain under confinement while Chinese men who were not perceived to be a threat were allowed to leave the "processing centres". Those amongst the first to be allowed to go home were the older and the weaker men. At the end of these sessions, most of the men who were left behind who were later brought to the execution grounds were those with tattoos (who presumably had secret society connections), confirmed anti-Japanese elements and many attractive young, able-bodied men who had no obvious history of anti-Japanese activity.
Any increased leeway gay men must have felt about their sexuality under the Japanese occupation - Citations to prove that there WAS increased leeway for gay men under the occupation?
- The Japanese admistration never prosecuted any Singaporean for homosexual sex, nor did they conduct any entrapment operations. The legal record bears this out.
Not only was the idea of independence mulled over, but also of universal human rights, including gay equality. Citation? Most historical accounts don't say the populace or leadership of Singapore negotiated for gay equality during the post-WW2 independence movement period. Indeed, even you seem to hint that gay equality would never be mentioned in independence negotiations because In those days, homosexuality as a topic was taboo. One did not even mention it in polite society. You're contradicting yourself here.
- You obviously do not know what "mulled over" means. It does not say "negotiated for gay equality'. Thus, there is no contradiction, as you so claim.
[edit] Spin and NPOV
I hope you realise spin is not acceptable in wikipedia? The rest of your article violates NPOV. Akikonomu 15:11, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
There is no spin. All sentences are statements of fact or probability. Any "spin" you read into it is totally your own imagination.
[edit] Pre-Colonial Period
I think the original poster did a great job of introducing a lot of material about a subject that is poorly documented in general, but I agree that it needs to be improved in places.
I have made some changes to this first section. The change in heading from 'Pre-British' to 'Pre-Colonial' is because it seems more appropriate as a general historical category. It also allows for conceptual links to Pre-Dutch, Pre-Portuguese and other pre-colonial societies in the wider region, including Sumatra, Melaka, etc.
I will try to make more edits in future, and welcome the comments and edits of others who have and interest and some information to contribute to this subject.
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