Talk:Singapore Airlines fleet
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This article was nominated for deletion on January 28, 2006, on October 6, 2007, and on May 10, 2008. The result of the first, second, and third discussions were no consensus. |
This is stupid deleting such a Informative Article which im sure is very helpful and is a good encyclopedic reference for many people. I have found this article very interesting and I'm sure many people benifit from it. Deleting such a fine article which obviously has had a lot pf effort made by people to make would be degrading to wikipedia. Having this excels the name Wikipedia in my head and shows how good an encyclopedia can be, Iv'e even put some effort editing extra facts into it (though nothing compared to the people who originally worte it)
Please keep this article and would be a waste of human time and intelligence deleting it:(
Thankyou and I'm very impressed with the people wo worte it, Thankyou, you have made a brilliant contribution which I'm sure will be used by thousands of people in the time to come:)
Tom 11:22, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
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[edit] Complete List
I have to question the value of the complete listing of SQ aircraft past and present on this page when it would be simpler to have a link to the SQ entry on plane-spotters from which most of the information contained in this list is garnered. I feel the plane-spotters entry is likely to be better maintained and updated more frequently then this entry and that removing the "list" from this entry would make the entry more useful and less cluttered. skyskraper 13:00, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
- I agree, a complete list with such detailed information could become very long indeed. Instead a encyclopedic article with the history of the fleet and aircraft operations would be nice. --Oden 22:35, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
- It seems like the full list of aircraft was introduced in the first version of the article: diff. It has also been suggested that the material might be copyright infringement: diff. --Oden 09:34, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
- The person suggesting it was a copyvio would then have to point out the relevant source where information was directly lifted from, and where the source has not been indicated in the article itself. Where may this source be?--Huaiwei 10:25, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
- I would suggest moving the complete list into List of Singapore Airlines aircraft so that this can be a article on the fleet, right now most of it consists of a list of aircraft. --Oden 11:52, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
- Might be a good idea in the interim, although the original intent of this article was actually meant to be heavily rewritten and expanded, particularly the current introductory section. Most of the "notes" in the main article can then be removed, leaving a para or two plus that table.--Huaiwei 12:16, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
- I would suggest moving the complete list into List of Singapore Airlines aircraft so that this can be a article on the fleet, right now most of it consists of a list of aircraft. --Oden 11:52, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
- The person suggesting it was a copyvio would then have to point out the relevant source where information was directly lifted from, and where the source has not been indicated in the article itself. Where may this source be?--Huaiwei 10:25, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
- It's pretty obvious much of the information has been DIRECTLY lifted from the planespotters page [1]. I don't think that even a list of Singapore Airlines aircraft makes notability. If a fleet page is necessary (I feel most of the information can be covered in the main article fleet and history sections) inclusion of individual lists with registration and remarks etc is not worthy of inclusion imo. skyskraper 08:06, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
- You are wrong. When I constructed the original list, I collated information from a range of sources, all of which were listed in the reference section at the bottom of the article. None of them reads "planespotters" to me.--Huaiwei 10:28, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
- It seems like the full list of aircraft was introduced in the first version of the article: diff. It has also been suggested that the material might be copyright infringement: diff. --Oden 09:34, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
The article on Singapore Airlines is currently 35 kilobytes long, and even though there is no technical limitation anymore on article size there would be less rooom for a extensive section on the fleet in the main article (see Wikipedia:Article size) and less room to expand Wikipedia's coverage of the subject.
As for the copyright issue, the article on Copyright says:
- "Copyright law covers only the particular form or manner in which ideas or information have been manifested, the "form of material expression". It is not designed or intended to cover the actual idea, concepts, facts, styles, or techniques which may be embodied in or represented by the copyright work."
A list is basically a collection of facts, like a telephone catalogue (see Feist Publications v. Rural Telephone Service and originality). However, WP:V requires that article content be verifiable, so every list requires a source. Whether or not the content is encyclopedic is a separate matter (see Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information). --Oden 09:31, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
- Again, you will have to show just where this list was directly lifted from, without which the copyright allegations cannot hold true.--Huaiwei 10:29, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
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- If you read my message above you will understand that a collection of facts cannot be copyrighted (e.g. a list of Presidents of the United States) since it lacks originality. However, articles need to be sourced (WP:V and WP:NOR). --Oden 11:32, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
- Singapore_Airlines_fleet#References clearly indicates the relevant sources used, unless you want a citation beside every single figure in the table.--Huaiwei 11:49, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
- If you read my message above you will understand that a collection of facts cannot be copyrighted (e.g. a list of Presidents of the United States) since it lacks originality. However, articles need to be sourced (WP:V and WP:NOR). --Oden 11:32, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
Can anyone shed any light on the ambiguity of the statement "Short/Ultra long haul" listed for the range of the Airbus A340-541? Braditude 08:47, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Remove the complete list and merge
Even United Airlines doesn't have a list of all its airplanes; heaven forbid that every airplane UAL has ever owned should be listed! Mangoe 16:49, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
- Precisely, this article violates WP:NOT and WP:CRUFT, and the fleet of the airline is not notable, except for the fact the aircraft are operated by Singapore Airlines. It is fanboyism at it's worst. The only parts which need be merged with Singapore Airlines are the types of aircraft operated in the past. Of course, some will say that the article fulfills all of wikipedia's policies and is needed to give a better overview of the airline. This is nonsense. There are only two airlines in history which have had truly notable fleets, those being Pan Am, and Aeroflot. Aeroflot would be the most notable fleet of any airline in history, as no other airline in history has ever operated more than 10,000 aircraft. Does this mean that we need an article detailing every single aircraft ever operated by Aeroflot? No, it means that the historical fleet should be covered within the article of the airline concerned. It doesn't need its own article. This article should be put up for community review and ultimately deletion --Russavia 11:52, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
- Care to comment why United Airlines should be used as a benchmark in this case, Mangoe? Virgin Atlantic Airways manages to incorporate a fleet list without too much protests. How should an enormous airline's inability to list its aircraft have any bearing on mid-sized or small-sized airlines who have fleets with greater notability? Aeroflot has a notable fleet? To whom? Do you have any sources to support this assumption? Seriously, Russavia, are you going to turn all airlines into carbon copies of Aeroflot?--Huaiwei 13:03, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
- Well, the Virgin Atlantic article needs to go too. Now, let me think a minute. If the Singapore Airlines contingent has their own fleet article, then the Virgin Atlantic contingent has their fleet article, which means that.....let me check......low and behold, I was right. If SIA and Virgin have their own article, then YES, Malaysia Airlines has its own fleet article too - Category:Airline_fleets. We best not let the Emirates Airline and Cathay Pacific crowd hear about this, because then they too will need their own fleet article.
- Care to comment why United Airlines should be used as a benchmark in this case, Mangoe? Virgin Atlantic Airways manages to incorporate a fleet list without too much protests. How should an enormous airline's inability to list its aircraft have any bearing on mid-sized or small-sized airlines who have fleets with greater notability? Aeroflot has a notable fleet? To whom? Do you have any sources to support this assumption? Seriously, Russavia, are you going to turn all airlines into carbon copies of Aeroflot?--Huaiwei 13:03, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
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- As to Aeroflot, are you serious? The largest airline EVER. Over 10,000 aircraft and helicopters. Over 500,000 employees at its height. Literally thousands of destinations (a complete destination list would be impossible to source or list). I have a book here called Soviet Transports. It is a listing of basically all aircraft manufactured in the USSR and CIS. Over 750 pages long. And a good 95%++++ of it is Aeroflot aircraft. A similar book on SIA would take up a single page in this format. A notable fleet though? A serious question? Well. The worlds first sustained jet aircraft service - the Tu-104. The worlds first regional jet - the Yak-40. The fastest ever turboprop airline (just below jet speed) - the Tu-114. The worlds first SST - the Tu-144. The list can go on back thru 80+ years of history. It doesn't need its own fleet, a simple list of aircraft with a reference source is more than suffice. I fail to see what is so notable about 9V-SVL or 9V-SFK that they need to be listed in an encyclopaedia? I dread the day that you get your hands on the internal SIA telephone directory, for then we will see more inane SIA cruft on wikipedia. --Russavia 20:03, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
- Your 1,800 characters isnt really worth reading, since they basically claim the same stuff. Perhaps you should kindly set aside time to read WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS (OH and btw, if other airlines are following Singapore Airlines in having their own fleet lists in wikipedia, than just what does that say about notability of SIA's fleet, and the brandname of SIA in general?). Who seriously cares if Aeroflot has flown the world's largest fleet of flying coffins, other than the poor safety record as notable in itself? By the way, the Aeroflot article seems almost devoid of talk on its rather shaddy past and horrific safety record, albeit a single paragraph below which appears to be an unabashed attempt in white washing history. Care to do something about it?--Huaiwei 13:06, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
- What does it prove? That perhaps, unfortunately, Malaysia Airlines and Virgin have the same type of fanboi contigent as Singapore Airlines? Virgin doesn't seem as bad, due to lesser fleet numbers, but it is there all the same. Luckily, those airlines don't yet have these types of articles, Singapore_Airlines_awards_and_accolades. As to doing something about the Aeroflot article. I have a lot of stuff written up for a complete rewrite already, which does address the safety record 'issue'. But right now, I am helping the guys at El Al with their attempt to get it to [status], something which looks like it could get to. --Russavia 14:07, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
- Or that those "fanboi" behaviors are practically reminiscent of corporate behaviors by major airlines? Tell us: Did the flying coffins of Aeroflot inspire the world's airlines to the extent of them copying Aeroflot's fleet, and attempting to compete with it in terms of number of aircraft? And as for your "help" at El Al, I was kinda wondering why you could not contribute to that article earlier, and only wait till a FA request to list an entire bunch of "problems" for others to rectify.--Huaiwei 14:22, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
- Why couldn't I contribute earlier? Because there are thousands of airlines Huaiwei, and I can't possibly do something on all of them. I have a list of a around a hundred (and then some) articles which I will be working on for the majority, bit by bit. When Flymeoutofhere posted on the WP:Airlines that the article is going thru FA review, as a member of WP:AVIATION, I feel that the majority of our articles have potential to be featured content, and am happy to comment. Flymeoutofhere has asked for comment and critique, and I have provided what I think it needs and doesn't need, but haven't simply left the task for them to do, as you can see from further info I have provided to these guys. As someone who's forte isn't Israel or El Al, it is best left to these guys to do up as it seems it is their 'pet'. But I have to say, it's a pleasure to help out in anyway I can on that article, because the guys getting the article up to scratch have asked for critique (not blind criticism), and have taken it on board where necessary. So don't think I am just sitting back criticising and leaving problems for others to rectify because nothing can be further from the truth. I am not one to sit back and let others deal with 'problems' as is evident with edits on Singapore Airlines (and associated articles), unfortunately some editors on those articles aren't as open to critique and improvement as those on El Al. Over and out, Huaiwei. --Russavia 14:41, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
- An Featured article candidates nomination is actually the final step of a long journey of reviews after reviews. If your hundreds of edits in wikipedia leaves with so little time that you cant even actually put into affect the tonnes of "problem" you listed in the FAC nomination, that just what does that imply, Russavia? ;)
- And I continue to find the words you choose to use mildly amusing, ranging from "Fanboism" to even "pets". I am sorry, but are you suggesting ownership of articles is acceptable? And conversely, that Russian airlines are probably your "pets" as well, and that you expect others not to touch them? Correct me if I am wrong, but are you implying you are condoning some who adopted wikipedia articles as "pets", but you cannot condone some others, and thus labels them as a sign of "fanboism"? Since when did wikipedia come under your subjective judgements, Tsar of Russavia?--Huaiwei 15:00, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
- Why couldn't I contribute earlier? Because there are thousands of airlines Huaiwei, and I can't possibly do something on all of them. I have a list of a around a hundred (and then some) articles which I will be working on for the majority, bit by bit. When Flymeoutofhere posted on the WP:Airlines that the article is going thru FA review, as a member of WP:AVIATION, I feel that the majority of our articles have potential to be featured content, and am happy to comment. Flymeoutofhere has asked for comment and critique, and I have provided what I think it needs and doesn't need, but haven't simply left the task for them to do, as you can see from further info I have provided to these guys. As someone who's forte isn't Israel or El Al, it is best left to these guys to do up as it seems it is their 'pet'. But I have to say, it's a pleasure to help out in anyway I can on that article, because the guys getting the article up to scratch have asked for critique (not blind criticism), and have taken it on board where necessary. So don't think I am just sitting back criticising and leaving problems for others to rectify because nothing can be further from the truth. I am not one to sit back and let others deal with 'problems' as is evident with edits on Singapore Airlines (and associated articles), unfortunately some editors on those articles aren't as open to critique and improvement as those on El Al. Over and out, Huaiwei. --Russavia 14:41, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
- Or that those "fanboi" behaviors are practically reminiscent of corporate behaviors by major airlines? Tell us: Did the flying coffins of Aeroflot inspire the world's airlines to the extent of them copying Aeroflot's fleet, and attempting to compete with it in terms of number of aircraft? And as for your "help" at El Al, I was kinda wondering why you could not contribute to that article earlier, and only wait till a FA request to list an entire bunch of "problems" for others to rectify.--Huaiwei 14:22, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
- What does it prove? That perhaps, unfortunately, Malaysia Airlines and Virgin have the same type of fanboi contigent as Singapore Airlines? Virgin doesn't seem as bad, due to lesser fleet numbers, but it is there all the same. Luckily, those airlines don't yet have these types of articles, Singapore_Airlines_awards_and_accolades. As to doing something about the Aeroflot article. I have a lot of stuff written up for a complete rewrite already, which does address the safety record 'issue'. But right now, I am helping the guys at El Al with their attempt to get it to [status], something which looks like it could get to. --Russavia 14:07, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
- Your 1,800 characters isnt really worth reading, since they basically claim the same stuff. Perhaps you should kindly set aside time to read WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS (OH and btw, if other airlines are following Singapore Airlines in having their own fleet lists in wikipedia, than just what does that say about notability of SIA's fleet, and the brandname of SIA in general?). Who seriously cares if Aeroflot has flown the world's largest fleet of flying coffins, other than the poor safety record as notable in itself? By the way, the Aeroflot article seems almost devoid of talk on its rather shaddy past and horrific safety record, albeit a single paragraph below which appears to be an unabashed attempt in white washing history. Care to do something about it?--Huaiwei 13:06, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
- As to Aeroflot, are you serious? The largest airline EVER. Over 10,000 aircraft and helicopters. Over 500,000 employees at its height. Literally thousands of destinations (a complete destination list would be impossible to source or list). I have a book here called Soviet Transports. It is a listing of basically all aircraft manufactured in the USSR and CIS. Over 750 pages long. And a good 95%++++ of it is Aeroflot aircraft. A similar book on SIA would take up a single page in this format. A notable fleet though? A serious question? Well. The worlds first sustained jet aircraft service - the Tu-104. The worlds first regional jet - the Yak-40. The fastest ever turboprop airline (just below jet speed) - the Tu-114. The worlds first SST - the Tu-144. The list can go on back thru 80+ years of history. It doesn't need its own fleet, a simple list of aircraft with a reference source is more than suffice. I fail to see what is so notable about 9V-SVL or 9V-SFK that they need to be listed in an encyclopaedia? I dread the day that you get your hands on the internal SIA telephone directory, for then we will see more inane SIA cruft on wikipedia. --Russavia 20:03, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
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First of all, could both of you cool down for a while. No personal attacks please and assume good faith. Huaiwei, don't assume bad faith by saying Russavia adopting his articles as "pets" and do not make personal attacks like calling him a "Tsar of Russavia". Russavia, "unfortunately some editors on those articles" is rather rude and sarcastic, please do not assume bad faith. We are here to discuss the article, not to make false accusations and personal attacks on others. Discuss the content of the article, not the contributors to the article. Please calm down and settle things in a civil manner. Terence 09:41, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- If you are going to single out negative conduct by one member, and expect both parties to "calm down", I would think that is a rather tall order especially from my point of view. Kindly adopt some sensitivity and maturity while attempting to diffuse a heated dispute if you are truly sincere about it.--Huaiwei 14:56, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- Thanks for the effort to balance your comment somewhat, although I wonder if you have ever witness the kind of conduct which has been allowed to transgress before this, and leading up to the kind of language being used now.--Huaiwei 13:45, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
The bottom line for this article is that it explains too much information for an Encyclopedia... so much that it becomes too much to handle. It is very difficult to verify if everything on this page is truthful, and by no means is this page a reliable source of information. It should be merged into the Singapore Airlines page, but do not include information like Registration, and do not include codes for certain things. Alot of people do not know what they mean, and they probably think just as I do that it takes up useful space. I don't know how many times I have tried to elaborate this, but I hope I can finally reach a conclusion regarding this article, as well as Malaysia Airlines fleet and Thai Airways International fleet.--Golich17 19:17, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
[edit] WikiProject class rating
This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as start, and the rating on other projects was brought up to start class. BetacommandBot 15:37, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Moving on
Now that the article has survived its second AFD nomination, lets move forward and consider ways to improve this article, especially taking into account some suggestions mentioned in the nomination. In particular, I would like to move the two large lists into their own list articles, so as to keep this article succint. Other ideas and recommendations are most welcome. Thanks!--Huaiwei 10:52, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
[edit] DC 10s
Singapore Airlines once had DC-10s, these aren't mentioned, does anyone know about them? I understand they were replaced either by 747s or by the earliest A340s. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Libertyscott (talk • contribs) 18:12, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Financing of 6 A330s
http://uk.reuters.com/article/hotStocksNews/idUKDUB00059120080326 This announcement by AWAS does not in any way suggest a new order. It has all the characteristics of a financing deal for an existing order. If it had been a new order (in addition to the existing 19), then most likely Airbus or SQ or both would have issued press releases. We will know with certainty when Airbus releases their March order announcements. Until then, it can only be presumed to be a financing deal unless Airbus or SQ announce otherwise. Mcarling (talk) 01:45, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Merger proposal
As stated before, this article violates WP:NOT, WP:CRUFT, and consensuses established on WP:AIRLINES. Contrary to what some editors think, this article is under the scope of WP:AIRLINES, if the box at the head of this talkpage indicates anything. This article is also existing within Wikipedia. As thus, to conform with this, the first two tables need to be merged into the main SQ article and the remaining tables deleted, and this page becoming a redirect to Singapore Airlines#Fleet. Citing 3 AfDs that resulted in keep is not a valid argument against merging; no consensus defaults to keep and does not imply any endorsement of either side. Guidelines exist for a reason and if all other airline articles can follow Wikipedia guidelines, there is no reason for Singapore Airlines to be the exception. Saying it has a long history doesn't work; even Pan Am doesn't have a separate fleet page, and their history is far more significant. Butterfly0fdoom (talk) 04:49, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
- And where are the references for the copious info on individual aircraft that's presented in this article? The only reference ("Singapore Airlines Fleet") cited in the article just tells how many of each type of aircraft is in the fleet. Unless I'm missing something, it has none of the specifics listed in the tables. This article appears to be 99% WP:OR and totally non-verifiable. Yilloslime (t) 05:17, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
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- The information is obviously verifiable since data like registrations are, by definition, a matter of public record. Colonel Warden (talk) 14:49, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
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- Yes, but they AREN'T referenced. Other airline pages have a link that holds that information, rather than going against WP:AIRLINES' consensus and holding the information on their own. It's clear that the community agrees that registrations are irrelevant (see Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Virgin America fleet and Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Virgin Atlantic Airways Fleet). Just because it's verifiable doesn't mean it ought to be included on Wikipedia. Butterfly0fdoom (talk) 17:38, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
- Yilloslime suggested that the information was OR and not verifiable. That was hysterical hyperbole. Your constant assertions that the article must conform to the standards of WP:AIRLINES are not much better. If that project was actually active here then we wouldn't need to debate the matter - you would have de facto consensus. The editors who matter are the ones who show up. Silent majorities don't count. Colonel Warden (talk) 17:52, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
- However, there are no sources. As thus, it falls under OR. A verifiable source was provided by myself; however Huaiwei rejected that source. Furthermore, as said, the tables go against more than just WP:AIRLINES. You evidently don't reject the notion that the bulk of this page goes against WP:NOT and WP:CRUFT. Butterfly0fdoom (talk) 19:43, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
- I am not the least surprised that Butterfly0fdoom should claim there are "no sources" when the sources actually used to first build this list existed in this article until his attempts to remove or merge it. As can be seen in the most recent version immediately prior to his first edit in this article[2], there were six sources listed. I specifically relied on http://airlinerlist.com/ to build the early versions of this article, supplemented by info from http://www.airfleets.net. Subsequent editors have used new data from Airbus and Boeing to update the table accordingly. Any claims of WP:OR are obviously unfounded and engineered to advance "WP:NOT and WP:CRUFT" arguments, despite them being unrelated.--Huaiwei (talk) 20:24, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
- (ec) Without references, and without the source of the information being readily obvious, this is WP:OR. Not necessarily SYN, but OR. I'll retract what I said about it being non-verifiable, and instead say that this appears non-verifiable. Let's see a verifiable source. But even if one can be produced, can someone explain how the fact that 9V-SQO, a Boeing 747-212B, was delivered on June 27, 1980, was retired on June 24, 1991, and made it's first flight onJune 12, 1980—can anyone explain how this is fact notable? Info in the first table is certain notable, but could easily be handled in the main SQ article. The next table I'm not so sure about, but the rest of the article is pure CRUFT, of no discernible notability. Yilloslime (t) 20:26, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
- WP:Notability is used to determine the inclusion or exclusion of entire articles, not on specific content, text or tables within it, nor specific entries within tables. And it states this very clearly: Notability guidelines give guidance on whether a topic is notable enough to be included in Wikipedia as a separate article, but do not specifically regulate the content of articles (with the exception of lists of people). There is therefore absolutely no requirement to demonstrate notability of the history of 9V-SQO in SQ's fleet, just as there is no need to demonstrate notability of Brunei's contribution of "relief materials" in the Cyclone Nargis article. Your interpretation of Wikipedia policies clearly need some reflection over.--Huaiwei (talk) 20:33, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
- Yes and no. I never linked WP:Notability, precisely since, as you point out, it applies to articles not content within articles. I meant the general idea of notability--perhaps I should have used another word to avoid confusion. But wikilaywering aside, the question of the idea, rather than Wikipolicy, of notability still stands. How are these details notable, in the general sense? More bluntly--who cares? In my opinion, the info in first table should be incorporated into the main article--it's clearly notable, and then we can just provide a link (if one exists) to the sources of the details given in the rest of the tables. There's no need for WP to host all this specialized data. Those few people who care about can follow an WP:EL for more info.Yilloslime (t) 21:10, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
- You do not need to specify a link to imply you refer to it. You specifically said "But even if one can be produced, can someone explain how the fact that 9V-SQO, a Boeing 747-212B, was delivered on June 27, 1980, was retired on June 24, 1991, and made it's first flight onJune 12, 1980—can anyone explain how this is fact notable? Info in the first table is certain notable, but could easily be handled in the main SQ article." If you are now twisting your own comments to tell anyone you were not trying to weigh the notability of each table in the article despite WP:Notability never stating it should be used on part of the article, then you are merely kidding yourself. And your statement of "More bluntly--who cares?" tells me quitely clearly that you are demanding that things be removed because you do not care, and nothing else. Unfortunately for you, there are obviously people who care enough about such details to bother to keep it updated without me having to ask for such assistance anywhere, and there are people who actually care enough about such details to write entire websites on this topics alone, and who debate endlessly on such details in popular aviation forums such as airliners.net. So to put in in equal bluntness, who cares that you dont care, because others do?--Huaiwei (talk) 21:35, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
- "Fancruft is a term sometimes used in Wikipedia to imply that a selection of content is of importance only to a small population of enthusiastic fans of the subject in question. While "fancruft" is often a succinct and frank description of such accumulations, it also implies that the content is unimportant and the contributor's judgment of importance of the topic is inhibited by their fanaticism." "Merely being true, or even verifiable, does not automatically make something suitable for inclusion in the encyclopedia." And, frankly, the sprawling list of registrations is not suitable for inclusion and is important to only a small population of aviation enthusiasts that already rely on other resources for the information in those long, sprawling tables. There is no reason for the first two tables to be in a separate article and there is no reason for the latter tables to be on Wikipedia due to WP:CRUFT and WP:NOT. Butterfly0fdoom (talk) 05:10, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
- You do not need to specify a link to imply you refer to it. You specifically said "But even if one can be produced, can someone explain how the fact that 9V-SQO, a Boeing 747-212B, was delivered on June 27, 1980, was retired on June 24, 1991, and made it's first flight onJune 12, 1980—can anyone explain how this is fact notable? Info in the first table is certain notable, but could easily be handled in the main SQ article." If you are now twisting your own comments to tell anyone you were not trying to weigh the notability of each table in the article despite WP:Notability never stating it should be used on part of the article, then you are merely kidding yourself. And your statement of "More bluntly--who cares?" tells me quitely clearly that you are demanding that things be removed because you do not care, and nothing else. Unfortunately for you, there are obviously people who care enough about such details to bother to keep it updated without me having to ask for such assistance anywhere, and there are people who actually care enough about such details to write entire websites on this topics alone, and who debate endlessly on such details in popular aviation forums such as airliners.net. So to put in in equal bluntness, who cares that you dont care, because others do?--Huaiwei (talk) 21:35, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
- Yes and no. I never linked WP:Notability, precisely since, as you point out, it applies to articles not content within articles. I meant the general idea of notability--perhaps I should have used another word to avoid confusion. But wikilaywering aside, the question of the idea, rather than Wikipolicy, of notability still stands. How are these details notable, in the general sense? More bluntly--who cares? In my opinion, the info in first table should be incorporated into the main article--it's clearly notable, and then we can just provide a link (if one exists) to the sources of the details given in the rest of the tables. There's no need for WP to host all this specialized data. Those few people who care about can follow an WP:EL for more info.Yilloslime (t) 21:10, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
- WP:Notability is used to determine the inclusion or exclusion of entire articles, not on specific content, text or tables within it, nor specific entries within tables. And it states this very clearly: Notability guidelines give guidance on whether a topic is notable enough to be included in Wikipedia as a separate article, but do not specifically regulate the content of articles (with the exception of lists of people). There is therefore absolutely no requirement to demonstrate notability of the history of 9V-SQO in SQ's fleet, just as there is no need to demonstrate notability of Brunei's contribution of "relief materials" in the Cyclone Nargis article. Your interpretation of Wikipedia policies clearly need some reflection over.--Huaiwei (talk) 20:33, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
- (ec) Without references, and without the source of the information being readily obvious, this is WP:OR. Not necessarily SYN, but OR. I'll retract what I said about it being non-verifiable, and instead say that this appears non-verifiable. Let's see a verifiable source. But even if one can be produced, can someone explain how the fact that 9V-SQO, a Boeing 747-212B, was delivered on June 27, 1980, was retired on June 24, 1991, and made it's first flight onJune 12, 1980—can anyone explain how this is fact notable? Info in the first table is certain notable, but could easily be handled in the main SQ article. The next table I'm not so sure about, but the rest of the article is pure CRUFT, of no discernible notability. Yilloslime (t) 20:26, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
- I am not the least surprised that Butterfly0fdoom should claim there are "no sources" when the sources actually used to first build this list existed in this article until his attempts to remove or merge it. As can be seen in the most recent version immediately prior to his first edit in this article[2], there were six sources listed. I specifically relied on http://airlinerlist.com/ to build the early versions of this article, supplemented by info from http://www.airfleets.net. Subsequent editors have used new data from Airbus and Boeing to update the table accordingly. Any claims of WP:OR are obviously unfounded and engineered to advance "WP:NOT and WP:CRUFT" arguments, despite them being unrelated.--Huaiwei (talk) 20:24, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
- However, there are no sources. As thus, it falls under OR. A verifiable source was provided by myself; however Huaiwei rejected that source. Furthermore, as said, the tables go against more than just WP:AIRLINES. You evidently don't reject the notion that the bulk of this page goes against WP:NOT and WP:CRUFT. Butterfly0fdoom (talk) 19:43, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
- Yilloslime suggested that the information was OR and not verifiable. That was hysterical hyperbole. Your constant assertions that the article must conform to the standards of WP:AIRLINES are not much better. If that project was actually active here then we wouldn't need to debate the matter - you would have de facto consensus. The editors who matter are the ones who show up. Silent majorities don't count. Colonel Warden (talk) 17:52, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
- Yes, but they AREN'T referenced. Other airline pages have a link that holds that information, rather than going against WP:AIRLINES' consensus and holding the information on their own. It's clear that the community agrees that registrations are irrelevant (see Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Virgin America fleet and Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Virgin Atlantic Airways Fleet). Just because it's verifiable doesn't mean it ought to be included on Wikipedia. Butterfly0fdoom (talk) 17:38, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
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My point is simply that this is WP:CRUFT. Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information, and WP would be best served by merging the info in §1 into the main SQ article, and simply providing external links for the info §2 & 3. Furthermore, unreferenced as this currently is, it appears to be WP:OR, which is another problem, albeit a problem, which if solved, would not affect the cruftiness of this article. And with regard to WP:Notability, if §1 were merged into Singapore Airlines and removed from Singapore Airlines Fleet, then what would be left of Singapore Airlines Fleet would clearly fail the article WP:Notability guidelines. While the registration numbers and dates of first flight might be hot topics of internet chat rooms, discussion boards, and some self-published websites, as far as I know, they have not "received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject [i.e. Singapore Airlines]." Maybe I'm wrong—I'm not an aviation buff—and so maybe there is extensive reliable literature discussing the ins and outs of SQs fleet. And if so, this article should cite some of it. Yilloslime (t) 22:24, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
- Also because I am genuinely curious: these people who care enough to keep the article updated—where are they getting their info from? I've asked this several times now, and no one has been able to give me an adequate answer. Yilloslime (t) 22:44, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
- WP:CRUFT is a tendentious essay of little practical value. See WP:CRUFTCRUFT for a similar counter. Please stick to basic principles such as the Five Pillars. Colonel Warden (talk) 09:27, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
- You know Colonel Warden, you might very well have saved me from having to expend significant effort just trying to explain to disinterested people who already declared they are "not an aviation buff" why the tables may be of use in some way or other to people other than themselves. And may I point out quite matter-of-factly that I am no "aircraft freak" either. I am merely someone who has always admired the concept of flight, and while I enjoy mapping out routings, analysing data, amongst other things, trying to track the movements of individual aircraft isnt exactly my cup of tea. Yet when I first wrote this article, I had the interests of many other users at heart, those who often ask the exact number of aircraft in the fleet at any one time, which particular aircraft has the "new seats", which has the distinct special livery, which was the 1000th B747 ever delievered, where the retired B747 went to, etc, etc, etc. And the people who ask these are often not aircraft freaks.--Huaiwei (talk) 14:23, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
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- Nice dodge, guys, but neither Huaiwei or the Colonel have addressed any of my points, nor answered my very pertinent, and one would hope answerable question: where does all this data come from? Yilloslime (t) 16:33, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Table merger
There now exists two tables in this section: one for all aircraft by delivery date, and another by registration number for existing aircraft. This was done at a time when there was no table sorting feature, which is now available. I would therefore propose merging the two tables so that updating it will be less of a chore. Anyone disagrees?--Huaiwei (talk) 08:45, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
I have no objection to such constructive editing however I gather that the sorting feature only works in some browsers such as Firefox. Please consider this point. Colonel Warden (talk) 09:30, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
- Ah, but I use IE, and I have no problems? Pardon me but I wasent aware that the sort feature has this technical issue. Any references for me to check up on the extent of the problem?--Huaiwei (talk) 14:15, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
- Works fine on Safari and Firefox (on my mac with leopard). If it works on IE as well, it shouldn't be an issue.--Regents Park (Feed my swans) 14:19, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Formal request for mediation (2nd filing)
As the informal mediation in relation to the various issues regarding the Singapore Airlines article was not successful, I have now instigated a request for formal mediation on these issues at MedCom at this link. The previous request for mediation was not succesful as not all parties would participate, however, I am trying again with this request. I have added a number of 'involved parties', however, if you believe you are involved in the disputes raised in the request, please add yourself to the 'involved parties' list and add yourself to the 'Parties' agreement to mediate' section. Perhaps we can now have these issues resolved in a timely manner. --Россавиа Диалог 21:18, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
