Talk:Sinbad the Sailor

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

WikiProject Iran Sinbad the Sailor is part of WikiProject Iran, which aims to improve Wikipedia's coverage of Iran-related topics. If you would like to participate, you can edit this article, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of objectives.
??? This article has not yet been assigned a rating on the Project's quality scale.
??? This article has not yet been assigned a rating on the Project's importance scale.
After rating the article, please provide a short summary on the article's ratings summary page to explain your ratings and/or identify the strengths and weaknesses.
WikiProject Iraq Sinbad the Sailor is part of the WikiProject Iraq, an effort to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to Iraq on the Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.
??? This article has not yet received a rating on the quality scale.
??? This article has not yet received a rating on the importance scale.
Middle Ages Icon
Middle Ages Portal
Sinbad the Sailor is part of WikiProject Middle Ages, a project for the community of Wikipedians who are interested in the Middle Ages. For more information, see the project page and the newest articles.
??? This article has not yet received a rating on the quality scale.
??? This article has not yet received a rating on the importance scale.

Article Grading:
The article has not been rated for quality and/or importance yet. Please rate the article and then leave comments here to explain the ratings and/or to identify the strengths and weaknesses of the article.
WikiProject Middle Ages To do:

Contents

[edit] 1001 nights

Added a part regarding 1001 Nights drawing some inspiration from Zheng He's voyages due to references in the Zheng He wiki article. -intranetusa

[edit] Zheng He

Is there real evidence for a connection between Zheng He and Sindbad? That presented here seems unpersuasive and unneccessary.--Cuchullain 20:46, August 16, 2005 (UTC)

The connection is actually mentioned by many historians and a recent National Geographic article on Zheng He. Zheng He had 7 voyages - sindbad had 7 voyages. Zheng he explored the western pacific along with africa - sindbad went to various places. Zheng He's name in some languages - San Bao - sounds very similar to Sind Bad. Most likely the stories existed before Zheng he and then the Zheng He's voyages were incorporated into them and compiled into a list of seven voyages. Kennethtennyson 22:13, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

So the connection between Zheng He and Sindbad is based on similarity of name and the fact that each had seven voyages. That does not sound very persuasive at all. There are many features of each story that do not chime. For example:

  • Zheng He is known to have travelled with huge fleets, some comprising 27,000 people. At the most Sindbad has one ship at a time.
  • Zheng He explored as far west as Africa and is thought to have at least sighted Australia. Sindbad's adventures are believed to have taken place in the western Indian Ocean, possibly even just the Arabian Sea.
  • Sindbad encounters some fantastic creatures such as the Rukh, of which there is no other evidence. *Zheng He took home exotic creatures like a giraffe, of which there is dwindling but palpable evidence.

Most likely the Sindbad story is a combination of local mariners tales and ancient Middle Eastern myths.

The Sinbad stories are older than Zheng He by several centuries. PiCo 10:35, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] to D or not to D?

I have trouble believing that the "Sindbad" spelling is truly more appropriate than the "Sinbad" spelling... Google would seem to agree. Thoughts? --Dante Alighieri | [[User talk:Dante Alighieri|Talk]] 22:42, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

Google only shows what is more popular, not what is more accurate. Kaijan 09:16, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
OK, would you care to explain why "Sindbad" is more "accurate"? --Dante Alighieri | Talk 00:28, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
Leaving aside the issue of "accuracy" (we're talking transliteration anyway), the English-speaking world knows this character as Sinbad, not Sindbad. I'm changing the article. --Dante Alighieri | Talk 22:44, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
"Sindbad" with a 'd' is more accurate because that's the way it's spelled in Persian and Arabic - it's spelled that way in Persian script in the article itself :). But I'll stick with Sinbad - ultimately it's a matter of supreme unimportance. PiCo 01:00, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] I agree with Cuchullain. The fantasy about this connection lacks solid proof.

[edit] Removed Chinese references

I've removed all references to Sinbad being based on the Chinese admiral Zheng He. If anyone wants to put them back, please reference some reputable scholarly source. (Also made some minor style edits). PiCo 00:58, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Inclusion of Chinese references

I believe there should be references to Zheng He, since I have yet to see any "reputable scholarly source" completely disprove that theory. As for sources on the Zheng He theory, National Geographic has apparently made mention of it. This reference can be read on the Wikipedia entry for Zheng He. Also, the line, "No universally accepted etymology of Sinbad's name has yet been advanced." at the end of the first paragraph seems a bit over-the-top, since I don't believe the requirement for "universal acceptance" is a way of automatically disproving a theory.

The line ""No universally accepted etymology of Sinbad's name has yet been advanced" isn't meant to disprove the Zheng He theory, just to state a fact. The Zheng He theory has no backing in scholarly circles - the Nat Geo is hardly a source for such matters. PiCo 05:26, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] from Arabicسندباد Sin-di-bad

Can anyone confirm that the Arabic really is Sin-di-bad? The way it's written here (and yes, I do read Arabic) it just says "Sndbad" - not even an "i".

I'm even more curious about what the Persian might be, since Sinbad is originally a Persian tale.

PiCo 09:12, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

The reason why there is no "i" in the arabic spelling is because arabic script does not write the whole words, as some vocals are left out, this can lead to som confusion at times for example the words "to merge"[Lahim] and "meat"[Lahm] are spellt the same way. Just like Hebrew as the name of god is spellt JHVH.
Some mean that Sindbad is actually a kurdish name as "Sand" means "to swear" as in swearing on something(not as a curse).
----سندباد Sinbad or Sindibaad is an Arabic tale NOT PERSIAN because it talks about a sailor from Basra which is an arabic city in Iraq also the original tale was written in Arabic Not Persian. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Aziz1005 (talk • contribs) 21:32, 28 January 2007 (UTC).


Sind/bad is not Arabic. It is Persian. Bad is wind. Sind or Hind is India/ the river Indus. A name which fits his profession. Any case Bad is wind and this name has only a meaning in persian and not in Arabic, Hindi/Urdu, Turkich or any other languages in the region.--Babakexorramdin (talk) 11:18, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Deleted material

I deleted this recent addition:

The birth place of Sindbad is considered by many as Sohar in North Batinha region of Sultanate of Oman.

Aktoy's story of the Shipwrecked Sailor is thought to be the inspiration for the classical story of Sinbad the Sailor. His other works includeThe Prophecy of Neferty, the Instruction of Amenemhet, and Sinuhe's tale.

Reasons are:

First, it sounds pretty odd to ascribe a birthplace to ma fictional character - he wasn't real, how could he have a birthplace? But if you give a reference (where did you find this idea?) it can be considered.

Second, the Aktoy theory seems extremely weak - there's no such thing as "the story of Sinbad the Sailor" - it's a collection of stories, not one. It's not even seven stories, as each 'voyage' contains more than one story. Moreover, the link between a 12th dynasty Egyptian tale (when was that - pre-100BC surely?) and a collection of tales that apparently took their present form only in the last few hundred years, is tenuous to say the least. But if you can give a precis of this Aktoy story, and a reference (i.e., the book where you read this point), it could be made into a useful addition (maybe).

Don't be disheartened, I'm not trying to prevent you joining the editing effort, just trying to keep it scholarly. PiCo 12:05, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] name

Sinbad's name can also be spelled Sindibad

Deleted the section on Sinbad's name - it basically said no-0one nkows anything about it, which is hardly worth saying at all. I was put here in the first place because someone kept adding the view that Sinbad was really tyhe Chinese explorer/admiral Cheng Ho - a claim which is more than a little speculative. That all seems to have died down now and I think it's best just to say nothing, since it seems there's nothing really to say. PiCo 08:10, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "Persian"

Historically, even if Sindbad were a real person, and even if he was born in a part of Iraq at the time part of the Persian Empire - this would NOT make the story necessarily Persian. In fact several of the tales in the cycle (Sindbad is really a cycle of tales in itself) clearly derive from Homer's Odyssey - and others are supposed to be from very ancient Egyptian sources. Actually Sindbad is fictional, and without a nationality or a "birthplace". The setting of the stories are principally imaginary or legendary countries.

The so-called "Arabian Nights" cannot be sheeted home (nautical expression appropriate in context) to any one nationality. In fact the "western" version of the collection has "added" stories (for instance Aladdin), and this seems to have been only the latest in a long line of assorted additions. The whole thing very obviously was not written down all at once, but grew like topsy over several centuries, and apart from the bulk of the tales at least being clearly of middle eastern origin any attempt to chauvinistically claim one or all of the tales for a particular country are very clearly POV OR (and a lot of other things).

I have also excised a fair bit of other rubbish from this article - will give it a proper going over later perhaps. Soundofmusicals 13:12, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Say the reality

Please look at this link Indus River for understanding were the name of sand bad was coming!!!! and at the next step go on this site to understand who has written the stories!!!! List of characters within One Thousand and One Nights I THINK EVERYBODY KNOWS THAT The writer is a persian!! and think about the name Shehrzade!!! it s persian. and at the end why you write some stories about the Island Sind-Bad in Arvand-Rud  ???? The is NO RIVER with this name!!!!!!! Please stop liying about this matters..... —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sina-aria (talk • contribs) 01:26, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Reverted Changes

Material added by user Sina-aria has been removed due to the inclusion of POV comments, grammatical errors, and some comments which, while they may or may not be correct, are besides the point of the article. However, it is my opinion that some of the material may be of use if someone familiar with the topic can extract the good from the less good. Here is the text (highlighted) that he or she has added and re-added. Please have a look. Matt Deres (talk) 14:30, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Cambridge History of Iran

I don't see why the source was removed [[1]]. [[2]]. Have a place where the etymology is given, but I note that Sandbad/Sinbad the Magian [[3]] predates the compilation of the stories in Arabic and a Magian would hardly have an Arabic name. --alidoostzadeh (talk) 17:18, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Personal attack over Introductory Paragraphs

Moved to discussion page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Babakexorramdin#Moved_this_to_more_appropriate_place

(Who was abusing who etc. is irrelevant to the main aim of getting the article to be as "good" as we can - so please keep it all where it is (or, better, delete it!!)

[edit] New Introduction

Please read the "new" introduction before reverting to the very unclear, muddled mess it had become.

The new version does NOT

1. Delete (or "distort") any references
2. Add or delete any important or controversial "information".
3. It clearly includes both Persian and Arabic names!!!!!

The rational of the "new" introduction is (paragraph by paragraph):

Para one - describes what the story cycle is - gives BOTH Persian and Arabic names - includes information that may indicate a Persian origin (the reference about "Sinbad" being a Persian word) and the rationale for it usually being considered of Arab origin (setting and apparent nationality of hero). I suspect that a dogmatic insistence on either would be unscholarly POV - puting a short case for both - together in the same paragraph - is at least neutral. Remember that this is (like the 1001 Nights) a collection of folk tales - some of them re-tellings of VERY ancient works of Greek and Sanskit origin - and not a "literary composition" in the modern sense. It doesn't have a single "author" as such - how and when the stories were originally compiled, and how frequently since they have been revised is very simply unknown. In this context an insistence on pursuing the Arab/Persian argument indefinitely is (with due respect) rather silly.

Para two - simply summarises very briefly the setting and origins of the stories without muddling this up with contradictory statements based on the Persian/Arabic controversy.

Para three - Discusses the link between Sindbad and the 1001 nights - pointing out that this link is NOT of ancient origin, but very probably the work of Burton.

Para four is that bit about "Sinbad's Island" although personally this I feel this borders on irrelevant trivia. Soundofmusicals (talk) 04:37, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Reverted to the ealier lead because it made far more sense. Added the ref for Sinbad's Perisan name even though I remain unconvinced - since when is ""Sindh of Wind" a name in any language? Removed the Arabic and Persian script as irrelevant - the version we're dealing with is the English translation of Richard Burton (the explorer, not the actor). PiCo (talk) 05:25, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
I'll leave any argument to our dear Iranian friends! But you're surely not insinuating that Sinbad is an English story, invented by Burton? While any treatment of the original in English will include references to the Burton translation I think the idea that it is "what we are dealing with here" is just a bit over the top!
I think the actual translation of the name is "Indian Wind" which is quite a good name for the character in the stories.
I don't like revert wars so I'll leave your version intact, especially as the real content remains, and it is at least a bit shorter - but I honestly don't see how muddling quite different questions together instead of separating them "makes more sense Soundofmusicals (talk) 05:44, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Transliteration of Persian name

In the very first sentence we have a transliteration of the Arabic name - a similar addition for the Persian name would be good - any Persian speaking editor like to insert it?