Talk:Sin City

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Good article Sin City was one of the good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
February 7, 2006 Good article reassessment Delisted


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Wikipedia: WikiProject Sin City

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[edit] Art

Does anyone here know if it is allowed to place art/coverart of a comic (in this case Sin City) on a Wikipedia page? Or is it copyrighted? I think placing art in the style of the comic gives visitors/readers a sense of what we mean with 'film noir withouth the film'. Switcher 14:36, 2 Jan 2005 (UTC)


Books covers are allowed, they fall under fair use. Wikipedia precedent says that single panels also fall under fair use. - Lifefeed 02:31, Jan 4, 2005 (UTC)

Okay, I added the cover of That Yellow Bastard #6 and tagged it with {{bookcover}} Switcher 14:18, 4 Jan 2005 (UTC)


Speaking of artwork, I think the artwork owes nothing to Calvin and Hobbes (are you guys for real?) and a fair bit to Jose Muñoz. You can really see Muñoz's influence on Miller, especially the way Miller copies Muñoz's use of small dark paintbrush blotches. You can see some of Muñoz's stuff here:

http://www.paulgravett.com/articles/096_munoz/096_munoz.htm

[edit] Coverart

I think two coverart pieces is a little bit too much for a small article like this, I think we should keep one and ditch the other. I'm voting for the Yellow Bastard #6 because I (personally) like the graphic quality and the resolution of the piece is so much higher than that dreaded A Dame to Kill For cover :), just my two cents. Switcher

[edit] Sim/Sin City

CoolCaesar added a disambiguation notice to explain that Sin City and SimCity were two different things, as per a discussion on the SimCity page. I thought that because this is a different page, the discussion for this notice should be here. I for one find it completely asinine and without merit. There is a distinct difference between this and the example cited by CoolCaesar on the steganography and stenography because those are somewhat obtuse technical terms which are actually related, while these are two distinct pieces of art, confused only by the blind, deaf and manical.--TheGrza 21:05, Apr 21, 2005 (UTC)

Hey, no need for personal attacks there. Next time, try the simple edit summary "removed unneccessary disambiguation notice". --DropDeadGorgias (talk) 21:41, Apr 21, 2005 (UTC)

There's no personal attacks here, I'm attacking the disambig notice as being asinine and without merit.--TheGrza 21:44, Apr 21, 2005 (UTC)

I was referring to "blind, deaf and maniacal", but it's fine. Just wanted to make sure things stay civil here. Just like Old Town, Wikipedia runs on the delicate balance between... eh, nevermind, this analogy is dead. --DropDeadGorgias (talk) 21:58, Apr 21, 2005 (UTC)

Wow, this has spanned 4 talk pages now: Talk:Sin City (movie), Talk:SimCity, Talk:Sin City, and User talk:TheGrza. Please read those pages (particularly the first two). Cburnett 05:15, Apr 22, 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for the info. --Coolcaesar 06:32, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)

From looking at Talk:SimCity it looks like they decided to remove the disambig on May 3, 2005, and someone finally removed it on July 2, 2005. Any reason not to remove ours as well? Lord Bodak 13:33, 14 July 2005 (UTC)

No...This was the stupidest disambig notice in the history of humankind to begin with and now it be banished forever and forgotten.--TheGrza 16:05, July 14, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] The Individual "Yarns"

Why don't we move the Basin City article, the "yarns" (Like A Dame to Kill For, the Hard Goodbye, that Yellow Bastard, ect.) to this page, making one large, Feature length article instead of many small articles scattered all over wikipedia?

I completely agree :) Switcher (talk) 10:34, 4 May 2005 (UTC)

Ok, I'm going to do it.

[edit] Comic to film differences

I've yet to read the comics by Frank Miller but noticed that the synopsis of "That Yellow Bastard" implies he was successful in raping Nancy Callahan as a little girl:

"Junior’s henchmen, who had shown up to dispose of Hartigan’s body, are quickly subdued, and forced to tell Hartigan that Junior had fled to the Roark Farm (described as a place where bad things happen) with Nancy, presumably to violate her again."

Also, it seems that it is peculiar to the film version that Roark pays to cure Hartigan of angina as this isn't the case in the comic:

"Racing to the farm, Hartigan suffers several severe angina attacks, but continues in order to save Nancy."

I'm going to go ahead and put them down as things of note as far as differences between the comic and film because I'm fairly confident whoever wrote up the synopsis did an accurate job of it but I did want to verify these two things, just in case, so responses would be welcome.

17:09, 16 May 2005 (UTC)
Ø

I didn't write this article, but I don't think that the yellow bastard ever raped Nancy... I'll have to check my copy when I get home. --DropDeadGorgias (talk) 17:43, May 16, 2005 (UTC)

Anything conclusive on that Gorgias?? Ø 18:51, 18 May 2005 (UTC)
I've just read my copies and as far as I'm concerned, there's no evidence to lead us to believe that Yellow Bastard raped Nancy. He didn't have a chance to even get her clothes off before Hartigan came through the door. So unless someone can point to evidence otherwise, I think I'm going to go ahead and modify that segment. Also, on a different note, I don't understand the confusion with regards to Hartigan's apparently 'fixed heart condition.' I thought it was obvious that both in the comic and the film, Senator Roark paid to 'fix' his angina but because of his age and the seriously stressful conditions he goes through towards the end of the story, it flares back up. I don't see any difference between the comic and the film in this regard. User:Tearsinrain
Page 71, Panel 1 (TPB): Nancy says "... I told them you saved me from that Roark creep! But they wouldn't even check me out and see I'm still a virgin! Still a virgin and still alive -- thanks to you!" Page 66, panel 3, Roark says "... I want you firm and fit and healthy. I'm even putting up cash of my own to get you more surgery -- to fix that heart condition of yours. You're gonna keep on living a long time. I'm making sure of that." (my emphases) Mikkel 08:55, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Redirects added

I noticed someone merged the Yarns into the main Sin City article but neglected to put redirects on the original yarn pages so I've taken the time to do this. They should all redirect to the main Sin City article and as such I've also removed wiki links that lead to the various yarn pages from both the Sin City (movie) and Sin City pages as they are now redundant.
Ø 22:40, 16 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Controversy section needed

Someone please add a "controversy" section.

The film is going to be outright banned or made impossible to show by age restrictions in some european countries because of excess senseless violence in it.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/film/4561547.stm

That belongs in Sin City (movie) rather than this article. Lord Bodak 12:58, 24 May 2005 (UTC)
Dear Anonymous Coward,
Most drama since The Iliad and before is extremely violent - because that's how people work problems out (War, anyone?).
The "monkey see, monkey do" theory of entertainment is ridiculous.
The Japanese have the most violent fiction and movies in the world and they have among the lowest crime rate.
A debate about violence in films does not belong in an article about a film, it is a much larger issue and for the large part an overhyped one (mainly by religious fundamentalists) anyway.
--Chaosfeary 17:43, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
I don't agree, many wikipedia articles talk about controversy surrounding certain works of fiction. (See Farenheit 9/11 or Catcher in the Rye or any Tarantino film.) The original poster, was simply pointing it out because it is actually significant to the film or comics, and not being an "anonymous coward" debating. I remember reading so many articles by pretentious critics talking about Frank Miller stories books and the film being trashy and seeing many organizations telling people to boycott the film. -Some guy
True, plenty of films display violence, but very, very few manage the same level. Many people, including myself, felt that sheer amount of violence added nothing to the film, and maybe took away from it. The focus should be on the plot, not on how many times a man can be shot or hit by a car before finally dying. The violence, combined with the fact that the movie was broadly released. Also, themes involving canabalistic cardinals are certainly going to raise controversy. Doesn't make it wrong. Just as the above poster said, many popular works of fiction get a great deal of controversy. Many reviews claimed the over-use of violence.

I would also be careful to compare Sin City to The Illiad.

[edit] Short:Rats: A Sin City Yarn

Was people see A IFILM Explore This Short:Rats: A Sin City Yarn, It not bad for a short !

Added it!

[edit] The movie images

Is it necessary to include stills from the movie adaption? They certainly clutter up the article and aren't needed at all imho, this is the article about the comic, not about the movie. For the people will go to Sin City (movie. Perhaps the stills belong there... Switcher (talk) 07:18, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Kevins

Since when do Senator Roark and Roark Jr. have the first names of "Kevin?" It's not in the movie or any of the comics, and it seems stupid especially when there's ANOTHER Kevin. Kuralyov 17:47, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Various people have speculated that they're named Kevin, but there's never been an explicit mention of them being called Kevin. I figure it will become more obvious when they do the next Nancy story what the names are.

Radical AdZ

[edit] Trivia

Both the trivia items are related to the movie, shouldn't they be moved to Sin City (film)? Lord Bodak 12:49, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

Yeah... also the movie screenshots need to be moved as well. --DropDeadGorgias (talk) 13:31, August 23, 2005 (UTC)
I moved the trivia over (one was a dupe). Someone else needs to handle the pictures, I'm not sure where they would look good and I'm not familiar with handling images here. Lord Bodak 15:12, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Salesman and Colonel

quote:

The Salesman, a shadowy, poetic freelance assassin who performs a lot of jobs for the
Ladies, the Cops and the Mafia.
It is assumed he kills Becky at the end of the movie adaptation. He is widely believed to
be a younger version of the
Colonel.

Colonel's younger version kills Backy after she is blackmailed by Colonel's current version? Isn't there something wrong?

--Nomad, 193.219.160.2 21:51, 6 September 2005 (UTC)


Well the movie the next 2 movies could show something to relagte too this.

[edit] Plot Summary Nitpicks

quote:

Marv decapitates Kevin's body and then proceeds to take an unconscious Wendy back to
Kadie's where Nancy patches him up, gives him beer and agrees to put Wendy on a plane at
Sacred Oaks.

But from the comic,

quote:

On the way back into town I ... put in a call to Kadie's and ask Nancy to get her clothes
on and meet me at her place.

[edit] Separate articles for the characters (esp. Nancy Callahan)

I propose creating separate articles for the characters and unifying the articles on the different books with a template:Inbobox.
I think especially with Nancy Callahan's rather convulated storyline with different things happening not necessarily in the order that the books were made or the film's order, as well as the fact that Sin City 2 (film (see near the end of Sin City main article) will feature her much more.
--Chaosfeary 17:33, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

Agreed. Some of the wonderful folks here have taken the time and effort to start up pages on Marv, Dwight, Nancy and even Jackie-Boy ( i gave that article a bit of polish, but other than that...). Next i think that we should put together one for the Roark family, so that we can have Senator Roark, Cardinal Roark, Junior/Yellow Bastard, The Farm and possibly Kevin on the same page.

[edit] Cleanup and Accuracy.

Okay...I appreciate what everyone has contributed to this entry but it's just cluttered with improper grammar and inaccuracies. Most of them concern misuse of tenses such as characters at certain points being reffered to as doing something is present time, then commiting their actions in the past. Along with that dead characters are referred as they are still alive (Sometimes with no mentions of their deaths.) and their occupations are both hazy and contradictory. Goldie and Wendy are listed as the current Old Town leaders when Goldie is dead and I never got the impression anyone even ran the show. Dwight is said to be a photographer in his bio and later on a private eye (Technically he does both of those jobs but which is it?)

Are people okay with adding a cleanup template? I changed some parts but the whole thing was just too long for me to fix alone. Unless other people want to volunteer so we can fix it ourselves, I say we alert the authorities. --User:Someguy 07:41, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Don't forget the use of both "American english" and "English english" in the same paragraph.

Sadly you're bound to get that. However, I agree that members should proof-read all items or subsections related to this page before they add anything. Figuratively, if one person gets the barebones down, then we all put in to polish each article as well as any additions, it'll make it easier and quicker and we can whip this page into shape. All those in favor?

Radical AdZ

[edit] Copies Sold.

I think it would be interesting for the article to contain information or a link to information relating to how many copies these novels have sold. I'm not all too savvy with the info digging so unless I stumble across something I'll leave it to the pros... my two cents, -AnonArtist

[edit] Article removed from Wikipedia:Good articles

This article was formerly listed as a good article, but was removed from the listing because it does not cite its sources. Extraordinary Machine 16:41, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Is there a quick and easy way to rectify this?

Radical AdZ

[edit] Timeline

The current "timeline" of events seems incorrect. For example, it claims that Goldie is alive as much as four years after the events of That Yellow Bastard. We know that, after her death and during Marv's search, he leaves an unconscious Wendy with Nancy Callahan, prior to her reunion with Hartigan. Corrections are needed. --AWF

Sorry, man, but you've got you're wires crossed. Hard Goodbye runs parallel in places with A Dame to Kill For, which is set 3 or 4 years after TYB, and Just Another Saturday Night is set the same evening Hartigan and Nancy reunite at the club (from Marv's POV). If you take that into consideration, it should make sense. Hard Goodbye takes place a long time after TYB.

Radical AdZ


In Hell and Back, when Wallace leaves the major, we can see Wallace and Delia in a car speaking, and a Cadillac Eldorado near their car. It seems to me that the driver of the Cadillac is Dwight, as seen in Family Values. Or am I totally wrong ? I think there is not one timeline, but maybe severals and that anyone can construct its own. (Sorry for my english, i'm a french guy).

It doesn't matter how correct the timeline is - it's original research, kids. Delete it. SamSim 12:52, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Contradiction

"Basin City, almost universally referred to by the nickname Sin City, is a fictional town in the American Northwest, located somewhere 40 minutes outside of Seattle, WA."

It says "fictional" but Basin City is a real city in Washington. I think someone screwed up somewhere.

- While technicly true, I somehow doubt that a land-locked town of under 1000 people in eastern Washington is the Basin City we know from the comics/movie(s).



Miller has gone on record a couple of times as saying that he based Basin City on a combination of present day and '40s L.A.

Radical AdZ

[edit] I found Sin City!!

Hey guys! I found Sin City! I searched it on Google Earth and there it was!! If you don't belive me, try it youself! I'm overusing exclamation points!! Sprite Master

[edit] Gangs

I removed the section on "Manute's Gang" since, unless I missed something, they were all working for Boss Wallenquist; not Manute. He was one of the henchman and, though he was obviously in charge, they weren't his gang.

Also, there's two sections that I think describe the same group, the Tongs and the White Slavers. From the description of what happens to the Tongs I'm pretty sure that the two are one and the same since, unless I missed something, it was the White Slavers who were attacking Miho and who Dwight killed. I'm not going to change it just yet since I'm out of state and don't have access to my comics, but once I get home I'll check (and if somebody gets to it first they should change it). 209.251.10.73 02:03, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Delisted good article?

According to the talk page history (as copied into the new ArticleHistory info), Sin City was a Good article, but delisted in Feb 06. However, I can't immediately find any record that it was ever a good article, as there's nothing about this visible in the history. I've take the Delisted info at face value and tagged this accordingly, but I suspect the wrong tag was added in Feb '06 and not spotted...? If anyone can fill in the blanks, please do - thanks! --Mrph 23:33, 6 March 2007 (UTC)