Talk:Sinéad O'Connor

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[edit] Discusion

wouldn't it be reasonable to say that the "alternate" spelling is the correct one that should be used here? Lir 09:34 Nov 10, 2002 (UTC)

Quite possibly! I did have the page at Sinéad O'Connor for a while, and held a little vote on the Talk:Sinéad O'Connor page to see which version people preferred. I moved moved the page here after getting one vote in favour of doing so. Perhaps I should have waited until more votes were in! ;)
Okay, more votes please, everyone! -- Oliver Pereira

Shouldnt there be a section on her sexual abuse at the hands of her mother and the following controversy between her and her brother played out in the irish papers? The Sunday Independent, if memory serves. Moodonia (talk) 19:11, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm moving the text from the Talk:Sinéad O'Connor page to here for now. Please could people with a strong opinion on the "correct" location of Sinéad O'Connor's entry add their arguments below.

[edit] Dangling participle

"Kristofferson then comforted her, while in tears."

Who was in tears here?

[edit] Moved text:

Do people think that this version of her name should be the default one, or the version without the accent on the "e"? Votes please! :) -- Oliver Pereira
The non-accented form gets 6 times the number of Google hits. We also tend to use the widest English form of names. See Wikipedia:Naming conventions (anglicization). So I guess Sinéad O'Connor gets my vote. --mav
Okay, you win 1 vote to 0. :)
Speaking of her name, I have never read that she was named after Sinead de Valera. In fact, in the liner notes of "So Far..." it pretty much states that her name was a weird and wonderful conglomeration of the last kings of Ireland (the O'Connor's) and the infamous wife of Eamon de Valera; a coincidence, and nothing more.. Does anyone have a citation for citing De Valera as her namesake? If not, it's just speculation.
I took the information was from the book So Different. Gamaliel 18:22, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

She and Nicholas Sommerlad have divorced??? When did that happen? Well, that didn't last long, did it? :( Anyway, it's the Queen of Sweden (Silvia, née Sommerlath) that he's allegedly related to, not the King. I'll correct that. I haven't seen any confirmation of the relationship, though... Should we put an "allegedly", or just trust that the Sommerlads have done their research properly? I've thought about getting back in touch with Matthew Sommerlad just so I can ask him about it, but I haven't got round to it... -- Oliver P. 14:32 30 May 2003 (UTC)

He says he is. They haven't divorced yet. It depends on where they get the divorce as to how quick they can get it. But then Sinéad is a bit of a man eater. FearÉIREANN 20:54 30 May 2003 (UTC)

BTW Sinead now insists on always being called Sinéad, not least because her name is pronounced differently without a fada. FearÉIREANN

Ah, thanks for clarifying that. So have you met Nicholas Sommerlad yourself, in your journalistic travels? He went to my school - he was two or three years above me; his brother Matthew was in my year. And I'll move the page unless anyone can suggest any good reason not to... (The "Sinead" spelling will remain a redirect, of course, so there'll be no problem with people finding it.) -- Oliver P. 11:13 31 May 2003 (UTC)

Actually the last time I saw Sinéad and Nick was in a gay pub in Dublin called Out on the Liffey. They were there officially as lovers (the fact that they were married was only revealed the next day). Sinéad had to the poor guy pinned down (they were sitting on some steps) snogging the face of him. She only stopped to send Brian Kennedy (the singer) to the bar for a pint (I never realised he was so tall!). Oh and she . . . em . . . came up for air when a drag artist called Mr. Pussy (a friend of hers who was there with her) had a bad luck to win a draw, the prize was to have to come up to sing a song. He was mortified to be called up on his 'night off' (but only for a few seconds. He loves being the centre of attention!). But was truly livid to find whomever had won that draw had to sing a song by . . . Rolf Harris! He nearly stormed off in disgust. He singing Rolf Harris is like Pavorotti being told he had to sing a song by Iron Maiden! Sinéad stopped snogging Nick to death long enough to look around, burst out laughing at Pussy's embarrassment, then, as Nick's head appeared from the ground onto which he had been pinned (I have expected to see an imprint of Nick's head on the wooden steps!) she promptly hopped on him again and began sucking whatever minimal air was left in the poor guy's lungs. People sitting around had to step daintily around them to get to and from the bar - I think everyone was afraid that knowing Sinéad if they stepped on her she would have bitten their ankles! So we all enjoyed the spectacle of a choice of shows, a fat frumpy drag artist's mortification (he has the dress sense of Bet Lynch meets the Queen Mum!) at having to sing a Rolf Harris song, or Sinéad O'Connor half killing poor Nick. (Maybe he promised to marry her to get her to stop kissing him and let him have some air again!!!). So that is the story of Nick, Sinéad and her almost kissing him to death. FearÉIREANN 05:30 12 Jun 2003 (UTC)

Isn't saying she was ordained a "Roman Catholic" priest inaccurate? She was ordained by Michael Cox, who AFAIR, was excommunicated, and therefore in no position to ordain anyone as a "Roman" Catholic. User:Jimregan

Cox was made a bishop by an ordained bishop and so is a valid bishop. Officially his episcopal ordaination is what is called valid but unlawful (ie, 100% valid because the person who ordained him had the power to do so but as the appointment was not authorized by the Vatican, it was unlawful, therefore he should not have done so). In turn Cox can ordain anyone, but without approval from the Holy See any ordination would also be "valid but unlawful". Theologians have long disputed whether being excommunicated means you cannot ordain. Many for centuries have said that once made a bishop, you cannot be unmade and as by virtue of episcopal office you have a right to ordain people, even if ordained yourself you still can; it is simply that you should not.

Excommunication is complicated because while someone who is excommunicated is by definition outside Roman Catholicism, many of those excommunicated view those who excommunicated them as themselves theologically in error and so de facto excommunicated. In the circumstances, rather than getting involved in disputes over who is and who isn't in error, the safest NPOV way to cover the issue is to say 'x' has been excommunicated but avoid getting into the nitty-gritty of who is and who isn't Roman Catholic. For example, Eamon de Valera was excommunicated, so has Castro. It has been claimed that by allegedly joining the Freemasons the future Pope John XXIII was excommunicated in 1935. And that by supporting abortion Senator Edward Kennedy has been de facto excommunicated. Indeed at its most technical, perhaps one in every ten RCs has been excommunicated, by having abortions, by supporting pro-abortion candidates even when told that doing so would encur automatic excommunication. Millions of Catholics in Italy between 1946 and 1990 were automatically excommunicated by voting for the communist party under the threat of excommunication. In fact most of the founders of the modern Irish state were excommunicated.

So on balance, the safest NPOV route is to say that she was ordained a RC priest but that by doing so she was technically excommunicated, with RC Church disputing her ordination (though curiously one quite conservative - in fact ultra-conservative - theologian told me once that yes she is a priest, which puzzled me. He went into a full theological analysis which went right over my head, though to say he was pissed at the ordination was an understatement! He also explained - as I already knew - that Pope Pius XII ordained a woman priest in I think it was the 1940s and 1950s. I think it was because as a woman the communists behind the Iron Curtain, or it might have been the Nazis at the time, would not have suspected her of being a priest. If I remember correctly, though a priest he empowered her to ordain bishops in an emergency, to continue the Apostolic Succession in the event of a supression of the RC church. The fact of Pope Pius's woman priest has only come to light in recent years but was long known about in the Vatican. So if she could be ordained - and no less a person than the pope said she could - so could Sinéad! Though I doubt if that priest had two divorces, children by other partners and a number of abortions behind her, let alone tore up a picture of the pope on TV!) Going any further involves straying into a theological and factual minefield guaranteed to provoke edit wars, and is also nowhere as simple as the RC Church for its own reasons likes to pretend. :-) FearÉIREANN 22:09 11 Jun 2003 (UTC)

Isn't saying she was ordained a "Roman Catholic" priest inaccurate? Hmm? According to the edit history, it was you who added that statement to the article in the first place! -- Oliver P. 03:12 12 Jun 2003 (UTC)

I know. And I was explaining why and some other user was asking for an explanation. That line was put in on the talk page by some other user but they never signed their name. What did you think I was doing? Having a chat with myself? :-) FearÉIREANN 05:13 12 Jun 2003 (UTC)

Oh! Well, that explains it. Thanks. :) Yes, I always manage to get confused when people don't sign their messages. I can never work out where one person's comments end, and another's begin, even if they're saying opposite things! But I loved your story about Sinéad and Nick and the Rolf Harris-singing drag artist. Can we add it to the article? ;) -- Oliver P. 05:48 12 Jun 2003 (UTC)

Whoops. Sorry 'bout that. I was sure I signed it, but the edit history doesn't lie. -- Jim Regan

[edit] Links

I just got done changing all but one page's links in the article space from Sinead O'Connor to Sinéad O'Connor. There were 61, for the record. --Ben Brockert 02:27, Dec 8, 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Section factual dispute

The section claims that Sinéad changed a lyric in Bob Marley's "War" from "racial injustice" to "sexual abuse". However, as this page shows, "War" doesn't contain the words "racial injustice". If I've screwed up and you know something I don't, just remove the dispute tag and forget this whole thing; if not, then we have to figure out where we went wrong. Deltabeignet 4 July 2005 03:46 (UTC)

She sang, "Child abuse, yeah," instead of "Africa, yeah." That was the substitution.

[edit] The Lion and the Cobra

Can someone upload a decent picture? I can't seem to get it right, apparently. Gamaliel 09:12, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] discog tables

I fixed the discog tables to a Wikipedia template and expanded the info. I found all chart positions as I possibly could, although I think I'm missing some UK albums chart peaks, and some UK singles info for peak positions lower than #40. A Google search didn't turn up much more than I already had. Anyone out there have Sinead's full UK chart stats? -- eo 02:17, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

I'll try to expand. You can't find of all the UK charts at http://www.everyhit.com (just in case you need it) KittenKlub 22:12, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
LOL All the information was already correct and added to the page. The other entries did not seem to have gone past 40 which means that they were not officially listed by the BBC, so it'll be hard to find those entries. KittenKlub 22:17, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] World Party?

Wasn't Sinéad in World Party for two albums? I can't remember the details, but seem to think it was a big step in her career. Seems odd to not even have a mention of it (but I don't know enough to add, sorry) --Sam 04:59, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

I HAVE NEVER HEARD ANYTHING ABOUT ANYTHING TO DO WITH THIS —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.125.110.223 (talk) 18:55, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Who excommunicated whom?

My old university chaplain always told me that the Roman Catholic Church doesn't excommunicate anyone - someone had to do something that meant they excommunicated themselves. Accordingly, I changed the sentence:

As a result she was automatically excommunicated from the Roman Catholic Church.

To:

As a result she automatically excommunicated herself from the Roman Catholic Church.

Since then, my edit has been reversed. I have no intention of starting an edit war, so perhaps a more neutral statement would be:

As a result she became automatically excommunicated from the Roman Catholic Church.

Or does this really mean the same as the first sentence?!?

--Smallbone10 23:25, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

--She was actually excommunicated. Yes, they still do that. --Additionally, it states that she is part of the Palmeranion Catholic Church at the topic of the article, this is not true. She is a priest in another Independent Catholic Church.

"Independent Catholic Church" is an oxymoron. She's joined a protestant group, which has pretensions of being Catholic. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 67.170.224.208 (talk) 08:37, 8 February 2007 (UTC).

--141.140.123.117 03:37, 4 January 2007 (UTC) = that depends, orthodox churches (greek, egypt etc...) are counted as catholic churches by many roman catholic theologians. I am unsure if the church she joined would be counted as such by the same theologians. As I understand it their main difference is that they disagree with the changes made under Vatican II. And of course by ordinating a woman they now have another difference with the roman catholic church.

[edit] Massive Attack

Sinead also appears as a vocalist on the Massive Attack album 100th Window and has probably guested elsewhere. The tracks on this album have conotations related to Sineads religious and anti-war beliefs.

[edit] 2007 album???

Why is a 2007 album listed there? I didn't know it was 2007 already.

--Gabi S. 21:57, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

Deleted.
--Gabi S. 08:35, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Critically Acclaimed?

There seems to be a bit of a difference of opinion as to whether or not Sinead is critically acclaimed. Is there any evidence of acclaim? --Eyrian 09:53, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

I just looked up reviews of her latest album "Throw Down Your Arms" and also got reviews of the show that followed that release. Most reviews are very positive. This is definitely acclaim.
--Gabi S. 08:36, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps you could replace the text and provide a reference to one of the more mainstream reviews? --Eyrian 10:04, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

Rollingstone Magazine definitely sang her praises in the early 90s. I think that counts as "critical acclaim."

[edit] Late Late Show Comment was just wrong

The person that wrote: "She performed the single "Throw Down Your Arms" on The Late Late Show in November, but was not well received, embarrassing host Pat Kenny and placing her bare feet on the chair beside her." lied. Go to her website and watch the segment from the aired show and see for yourself. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 200.41.228.94 (talk) 01:56, 11 June 2006 (UTC).

The only thing critical about Sinead O Connor is her critical disregard and disrespect for Catholicism and the Pope. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.240.109.23 (talk) 20:45, 28 July 2006 (UTC).

Please keep you bigoted intolerant comments to yourself. McDanger 10:13, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Sexuality

" In a May 2005 issue of Entertainment Weekly, she again outed herself, this time as a lesbian."

Not true – this article is online (link). Here's what she said:

"Though it's clearly painful for her to go back there, she doesn't dodge questions, even about her sexuality: I'm three-quarters heterosexual, a quarter gay. I lean a bit more towards the hairy blokes. (These days, she's single.)"

Also, she first came out as a "lesbian" in Curve in 2000, soon followed by clarification that she was bisexual. 130.212.235.167 22:56, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Her father

Is it Jack or John!?! Excalibur2211 06:35, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Jack [1]. --Eyrian 09:42, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
Jack is frequently a nickname for John, and both are nicknames for Jonathan, so it could be both without any contradiction. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.119.159.236 (talk) 21:29, 11 March 2007 (UTC).
John most certainly is NOT a nickname for Jonathan, they are both names within their own rights! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.107.142.249 (talk) 20:17, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Hair

MTV mentioned she shaves her head because she refused to become famous because of her good looks. She wants be recognized for her musical talents. Knowing a little about O'Connor, I'd say this could easily be true, but is it actually true? --Vincent de Ruijter 06:00, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

If it is, then too bad she can't sing.
Oh dear please, go to the shop and purchase a pair of ears. After that, check out her singing celtic music, such as her modern Sean Nos -renditions or any track where she visited the Chieftains. Very very talented. Too bad she did not do more of that.

Bald chicks are gross --AnYoNe! 22:04, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Hypocrite?

I'm confused by this article. She tore up the Pope's picture, calling it evil, and now she is a heavy catholic? H2P (Yell at me for what I've done) 15:17, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

no, she's a part of DISSENTING catholic group —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.251.53.116 (talk) 03:58, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Contradiction

This paragraph states she's unrepentant about tearing the Pope's photo after she apologized and sought forgiveness for doing it. What?

On September 22, 1997, O'Connor was interviewed in Vita, an Italian weekly newspaper. In the interview, she asked the Pope to forgive her. She claimed that the tearing of the photo was "a ridiculous act, the gesture of a girl rebel." She claimed she did it "because I was in rebellion against the faith, but I was still within the faith." She went on to quote Saint Augustine, by saying, "Anger is the first step towards courage."[6] However, O'Connor remains unrepentant about the incident. In a 2002 interview with Salon.com, when asked if she would change anything about the October 3, 1992 SNL appearance, she replied, "Hell, no." [2]

Bantosh 04:27, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

I see where you're coming from, and you certainly have a point with that - it does seem to be a bit nonsensical. The best explanation I can offer you is that we're dealing with a very contradictory/mixed up character in general here. Remember: one minute she's a lesbian, and the next minute she's retracting it. One minute, she's retiring from making music, and in the next, there's a new album on the shelves. I could probably go on and on with instances of that nature, but I hope you see what I'm getting at. Perhaps there's a way to rephrase that passage so that it isn't so blatantly contradicting, but the fact that she's said something that was at odds with a previous sentiment is hardly surprising. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 4.159.213.119 (talk) 01:42, 22 March 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Illogical, as with many humans

I agree fully with the unsigned commentor above. If all persons who contradict themselves will end up by having an "article contradicting itself" we are bound to have quite a bunch of them. People are prone to err and be illogical. Sorry, geeks. Shut down the PC and go meet a live person. Or seek Spock for company.

geminga

What’s so hypocritical or contradictory? She was angry at the paedophile coverups by the Catholic Church and spoke out about it. I think the salon article at the bottom of this wiki more then thoroughly explains her position. Just because she views the situation differently today then she did back then does not entail that she would go so far as to take it all back. -ic

[edit] Section dispute, II

I believe hearing on a VH1 documentary that the tribute concert that Sinead performed at was for Bob Marley, NOT Bob Dylan. I'd like to have a factual reference to back up this statement. BT14 17:35, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

  • It is referenced - all over the place. There is even a link to it on YouTube. It was Dylan's tribute concert. Not Marley's. Simply Googling it will bring it up everywhere. ExRat 00:58, 10 August 2007 (UTC)