Talk:Simon Rattle

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Simon Rattle is within the scope of WikiProject Classical music, which aims to improve, expand, cleanup, and maintain all articles related to classical music, that aren't covered by other classical music related projects. Please read the guidelines for writing and maintaining articles. To participate, you can edit this article or visit the project page for more details.
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography. For more information, visit the project page.
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This article is supported by WikiProject Musicians, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed biographical guide to musicians and musical groups on Wikipedia.

"He has also worked with the world famous Toronto Children's Chorus." Is this chorus really world famous? Rattle, like many community minded conductors, has worked with a huge number of childrens choirs, local groups and so on from all around the world, not least in Birmingham and Berlin, where he is famed for taking the BPO into community settings. Is there any reason why this group is being picked out?--Rob2000 13:03, 7 September 2006 (UTC)


Unlike most conductors, Rattle partially re-arranges many of his pieces, instead of going with the original and only arrangement (that of the composer). Rattle's arrangements are admired by many.

Actually, conductors modifying orchestrations is a long-standing but little-known tradition as old as orchestral music. Mahler did it, Toscanini and Stokowski did it, Karajan did it, and now I suppose Rattle does it too. The only requirements are talent and taste. - Eyeresist 07:12, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] infobox

There is not an infobox for conductors, so why not use the Person inbox template. It should provide a quick summary, and it has been used for many famous people. Snowman (talk) 01:16, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Update: the Musical artists infobox works ok. Snowman (talk) 21:21, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
When I removed the biographical infobox I provided a link to the guideline at the Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Classical music, where h2g2bob also raised the matter and had a response, see here. I'd be grateful if you could remove the box after you've read the discussion. Thanks and regards -- Kleinzach (talk) 10:52, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
Wikipedia:WikiProject Classical music#Biographical_infoboxes refers to a consensus about infoboxes. I posted a note on this talk page before and after someone (one me) added the infobox. I put the infobox back after you had removed it without regard or contributing to the discussion here. This is the page to talk about the infobox and no one will be expected to read the talk page about suggestions for the music wikiproject that you refereed to; the Wikipedia:WikiProject Classical music#Biographical_infoboxes does specifically state that this discussion about infoboxes should be the articles talk page. Let a consensus build up here as suggested by the project. I do not know why you did not contribute here earlier. Snowman (talk) 11:14, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
As explained, h2g2bob decided to raise the matter on the Classical Music project, not here. If he had decided to talk about it here that would have been fine. He did not. Obviously I was unaware of your comment above (8 March).
Furthermore the guideline Wikipedia:WikiProject Classical music#Biographical_infoboxes says biographical infoboxes "should not be used without first obtaining consensus on the article's talk page." -- Kleinzach (talk) 12:13, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
But, there is a strong element of an implied consensus because an infobox has been on this page for more than a year, and during all that time there have been no objections on this talk page (and perhaps no objections anywhere). Snowman (talk) 14:42, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
  • I think that this article should have an infobox in line with the majority of wiki articles. Consistency across pages in an important feature of the wiki. If the classical music infobox is unsuitable, then a person infobox or a new infobox for conductors should be used. Snowman (talk) 11:14, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

The infobox is inaccurate. Conductors do not have 'associated acts'. Re his career as a "pedagogue", which school or university does he teach at? Doesn't he have a full time job as a conductor? -- Kleinzach (talk) 12:21, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

I have fixed those problems and changed it to a person infobox. Snowman (talk) 13:23, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
I note that you just added the classical music wikiproject banner, and prior to that this page was only listed as being part of the wikiproject autobiography. Wikiproject autobiography has normal wiki guidelines on infoboxes and encourages them. Changed to an person infobox in the absence of a conductors infobox. Snowman (talk) 13:20, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
General advice on Wikipedia:WikiProject Biography/Infoboxes cautions against putting the boxes on arts and science pages without asking first: "Certain biography articles have opposition camps on infoboxes. . . . if you are intending to apply one of the templates to an article about a scientist, academic, or classical composer, musician or singer, first ask on the Talk page." -- Kleinzach (talk) 13:41, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
I started the discussion here on 4 March 2008, and in the absence of any comments to the contrary (until today) someone put the infobox back several days ago, and I think that was reasonable with the comments here at that time. I am glad that you are taking part in the discussion here today. It might be worth leaving messages at the relevant wikiprojects so that their members are aware of the discussion here. I fixed the problems you had with the classical music infobox, and I am not clear what are the objections to the presence of the person infobox? 14:03, 10 March 2008 (UTC)Snowman (talk)
Also, this page has had an infobox for more than a year, which with out any comments on this talk page suggests an implied consensus, so I think that the infobox should not be removed with one edit and an edit summary. Snowman (talk) 14:27, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
Hi. I would support inclusion of an infobox of some kind. If using other infoboxes in lieu of a tailored one, elements such as 'associated acts' can simply be manually removed from the infobox template in edit source, or left blank, and it will not show up in the saved article infobox. And, whatever you may wish to think, the correct place to gain a consensus for any action within an individual article is on its talk page and nowhere else. Project talk pages are used to gain a consensus towards policy or guideline changes within the scope of that Project. Thanks. Ref (chew)(do) 20:46, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
I had wrote a person infox in place of the classical infobox and it was on the page until someone removed it. An infobox has been on this page for more than a year until recently. Using the person infobox seemed to me to solve the objections of not having a specific conductors infobox. Snowman (talk) 15:19, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
@User:Opus33 and @ all
Strong support of restoring the infobox
Hello, I really don't understand Opus33 user reverting and deleting the infobox on Sir Simon's page. You all have my support to restore it. (BTW, I managed it to get his foto from the Pressestelle, do you want me to remove it now ? Certainly not.). The infobox is of value for visitors coming along and gives a first impression. If you don't like the infobox layout, then edit the template and add further information; the mere deletion after more than one year of presence of this box is something want I regard as aggressive deletion of unwanted material. In this case, the infobox was of value and should be restored a.s.a.p --Wikinaut (talk) 19:27, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

This is pretty clear cut case of Kleinzach and the other classical music snobs trying to stake ownership of all the articles on classical musicians with their wikiproject and a bunch of rules written on the page which funnily was agreed only by their little circle. What's even more hilarious is that they even claim their project and so their guidelines don't apply to conductors as they only cover articles not covered by other music related projects. This (and a whole host of other conductors) are covered by the musicians project and yet the editors still falsely claim ownership and remove the infoboxes. I strongly say we put infoboxes on all conductors and revert all those that have had them removed under the false pretence of guidelines which don't apply. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.232.251.233 (talk) 23:40, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Speaking of which, I've read your argument Kleinzach - you claim a consensus of a group of editors who agree with your position. I've seen very little consensus with anyone outside of the classical music project. Look at the article on Joseph Szigeti. I believe it is a featured article no? I believe to be featured the whole article must be approved by a series of editors and that is must conform to the manual of style. I also believe there's a massive great infobox on it. Why haven't tried getting consensus to remove that (look it's even incorrectly tagged with your project's ownership banner)? Surely this shows that there is huge consensus to keep infoboxes for classical musicians and that you should go back and put back all the infoboxes you wrongly deleted. 128.232.251.233 (talk) 23:56, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Banner

This page is decidedly not covered by WP:CM Kleinzach. Read the opening blurb: WikiProject Classical Music aims primarily to further comprehensive documentation of classical music—including historical and musicological analysis. Major works will be at the forefront. Where's the mention of people? Also WikiProject Classical music aims to improve, expand, cleanup, and maintain all articles related to Classical music, that aren't covered by other music related projects. Its participants help sort stubs and source statements made throughout the world of classical music. And this project is already covered by WP:Musicians.

All in all that's safe to say that this project is NOT covered by WP:CM and the WikiProject banner does not belong here. 131.111.213.37 (talk) 05:44, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

As I have told you on your talk page: The project explains "WikiProject Classical music aims to improve, expand, cleanup, and maintain all articles related to Classical music, that aren't covered by other music related projects." The text you quote above was not written by the project. It was written by you. -- Kleinzach (talk) 05:01, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
I note the WikiProject Classical Music banner has again been removed from this page by the Cambridge IP 131.111.213.37. -- Kleinzach (talk) 07:06, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
The page is covered by "Wikipedia:WikiProject Musicians", so according to those rules the "WP Classical music" does not have a remit here. Snowman (talk) 15:48, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Yes but even though at the moment technically this article is not under WP:CM's jurisdiction, every one of the three classical music WikiProjects is against infoboxes. We are currently discussing a restructuring of the three main projects but no matter what, this article will eventually fall under one of these WikiProjects all of which have a no infobox guideline. Centy – reply• contribs – 02:22, 12 March 2008 (UTC)