Talk:Simchat Torah

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The article fails to acknowledge and explain the 2 day issue with people outside of the Land of Israel...71.156.40.78 01:04, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

Contents 1 Custom of shouting Moshe Emes 2 Unreferenced sections 3 Accuracy, please 4 Differing customs 5 List of improvements

[edit] Custom of shouting Moshe Emes

Removed the following text to Talk:

In Orthodox synagogues the circuits are followed by participant shouts of, "Moshe emes v'Soraso emes!" ("Moses is true and his Torah is true!") while jumping up and down. This custom, which is especially enjoyed by the children in attendance, recalls the same words that were uttered by the sons of Korach after the earth opened up and swallowed them and their possessions, according to the Midrash (but not the Torah itself). While Korach and his wife, who instigated the rebellion against Moses' leadership of the ancient Israelites in the desert, were lost, Korach's sons repented and were elevated up from the earth's bowels back to the surface, uttering this verse. The verse is especially appropriate to Simchat Torah, when Jews celebrate the veracity of the Torah.

I've been at a number of Orthodox synagogues that don't do this. This strikes me as a minor custom -- far from essential to the holiday -- which may be here because it happens to be some editor's favorite. So far as I know in Orthodox synagogues a wide variety of songs and chants are done as part of the procession and dancing. The long description of this particular custom with claims about its origin and phrases like "especially appropriate" seems very POV-pushing. If this particular custom is mentioned at all, suggest sourcing who does it and cutting the description considerably. If we have to quote liturgy, why not discuss the Hakafot and other matters? --Shirahadasha 00:15, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. I've attended a wide range of Orthodox synagogues on Simchat Torah, chassidic and misnaged, modern orthodox and chareidi. While this is a popular song, I've not been anywhere where it's cropped up more than once or twice in the 7 hakafas; it's no more or less worthy of inclusion than any of a dozen other songs that are very popular on that day. --Dweller 07:21, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Unreferenced sections

Hi! I've added unreferenced tags to some sections after resurrecting them from a previous immediate delete. Much of this article is currently unreferenced and subject to challenge. Given that it is a perennial problem (and opportunity) of Wikipedia's Judaism section that editors arrive unfamiliar with Wikipedia's policies, I would suggest that editors concerned about the unsourced content use a gentler approach and add {[fact}} or similar tags and wait a decent period (a couple of weeks) before engaging in wholesale deletion of unsourced content, rather than doing so without warning. Given that there are no WP:BLP or similar legal issues involved here, I believe this will better facilitate a balance between the need to enforce policies and the need to maintain colleagiality and cooperation. Thanks, --Shirahadasha 22:18, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Accuracy, please

In cleaning up the article for accuracy, I noted that the reference cited for inebiration and hard liquor being part of the Simchat Torah experience didn't say anything like that. Perhaps in some Reconstructionist temples people go all out on Simchat Torah, but hard liquor and stupid pranks are not in the spirit of the day. Yoninah 14:27, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Differing customs

In reading this article, I notice that too many different customs are being lumped together. I have been to a dozen or more Simchat Torah celebrations in shuls here in Jerusalem, and not once have I seen some of things described here, like carrying the Torah scrolls out to the street or calling up a Chatan Maftir. And while Dweller has never heard "Moshe emes" being sung at any shul (presumably in America), I can tell you that it is standard practice here in yeshiva minyans and all hareidi neighborhoods.

Perhaps the editors would be willing to break out Orthodox, Conservative, Reform, "yeshivish", and other customs into separate paragraphs, so that the reader can understand each custom in its context? Yoninah 23:18, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] List of improvements

Hi. Maybe we should list some ways to improve this article. Has good potential. Thanks. Feel free to add to list. HG | Talk 12:44, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

• Clarify customs (see previous comment). I don't think these need to be divided by denomination, but we do need to reference them. Images would be great!
• Use of simchat Torah as a public celebration, including Moscow etc. Images of Moscow or Israel, etc?
• Explain diaspora vs Israel w/o presuming diaspora as norm
• I think some of the Ortho vs Conservative distinctions are artificial and also incomplete -- what about all the synagogues that don't identify either way, yet do some of these customs?
• Explain the religious significance or meaning of the holiday, diverse views as needed. (Did I miss it?)