Talk:Silvio Berlusconi

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this article on Silvio Berlusconi is clearly apologetic, written in an effort to clear Berlusconi's image from all accusations made by his opponents. I was hoping Wikipedia to be a bit more neutral.

The page is one of the less biased versions I've seen on Berlusconi. well done
Peer review Silvio Berlusconi has had a peer review by Wikipedia editors which is now archived. It may contain ideas you can use to improve this article.

This is the talk page for Silvio Berlusconi. This article had considerable disputes about whether it achieved NPOV. It has now been updated to try to solve those debates. If you feel that the article is biased or inaccurate, please add a section with specific problems to the end of this page where it can be discussed and a better form can be found.

Old and inactive discussions have been archived on /Archive 1 /Archive 2

Contents

[edit] The Singing Prime Minister

Berlusconi accepted his defeat by serenading a custom made song at a hotel in Trieste. Or did he? Many news agencies believed so, but some otherwise.

Pro: ABC News (Australia) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200604/s1621740.htm)

Con: The Guardian (UK) (http://www.guardian.co.uk/italy/story/0,,1759827,00.html)

I think currently only Mr. Berlusconi knows. Talamus 00:47, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

  • He did. I read it on an Italian paper. The song was something like "Let's go away, from everyone, parties, TVs, papers an' leave 'em this way with their afflicted feel and let's move to a far away island...in another hemisphere..." --Frank87 14:15, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Archived

I've archived this discussion, as clearly nobody was paying attention to that "don't feed the troll" warning. A hint: Dzoni is a troll. Don't respond to him and he'll go away. john k 04:18, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

If only the British National Party could be dealt with so easily... ;) Wally 20:10, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

John,I really,really dont like you.You sound to me like a little ugly trollDzoni 07:58, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Silvioconnoi web site removal

the site http://www.silvioconnoi.splinder.com/ is not a real site of Silvio's fans but only a (extremely well done) joke. On the 18/04/06 the site authors revealed the joke, therefore i think that it should be removed. ALoopingIcon 20:00, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Grand coalition, governing "against the will" of the people, percentages

Trovatore, first of all, please don't delete all of a contribution just because you feel that one of the many sentences in it could be tendentious.

Anyway, were you asking for sources for all the facts in the edit you deleted or just for the suppposedly tendentious sentence?

Just to be safe, I'll substantiate everything

  • Berlusconi asked for a german style "grand coalition": see article on Il Giornale, a newspaper owned by Berlusconi.
  • Berlusconi said one can't govern against half the italian people: see article on Il Giornale, a newspaper owned by Berlusconi.
  • Berlusconi won the 2001 elections: do you really need a source? ;-)
  • Berlusconi got 42.5% of the Senate vote in 2001: the results are on the web site of the Ministero dell'Interno, but are mentioned in Silvio Berlusconi#Electoral Victory of 2001
  • Berlusconi governed for five years: again, do you really need a source? ;-)
  • 57.5% of Senate electors had voted against him: it is the result of 100% - 42.5% (does elementary maths count as original research?)
Unless there are abstains. --Gerrit
Unless it is a "yes/no" vote, they cannot have voted "against" him, but for someone else. The phrasing implies a 57.5% majority of a united opposition. User:Wee_Jimmy

CUTEDH 18:05, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

  • Berlusconi wasn't deterred by this: again, it is evident that he governed for five years.
  • Paragraph on the Cassazione: I just moved it, it was already there
  • The UDC conceded victory: teletext page on the national TV (I hope the link is stable, anyway the news item is dated 19/04/2006 18:39 and can be found browsing from [1])
  • Other elements of the CdL didn't concede: see Teletext again: Calderoli still wants to fight the result and Tremonti thinks the same
  • UDC is a centrist party: it sits in the center of parliament, all other parties of the Casa delle Liberta` sit to its right, i.e. they are more right wing. See Union of Christian and Centre Democrats (Italy).

About the Original Research issue: which original research? Just a mention of facts which are every day on newspapers or are already mentioned in this Wikipedia entry. Unless you consider elementary maths to be OR ;-)

This leaves the "tendentious" accusation. It only concerns one sentence. This sentence is needed to balance the POV of Berlusconi's position (which is faithfully reported). So, removing this sentence would make the paragraph NPOV.

Is it clearer now?

--Lou Crazy 03:22, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

Leave the whole thing out, and it won't be tendentious. As it is, you're violating WP:NOR, by giving an original synthesis of the facts. Now lots of times you get away with that, but I think this is precisely the sort of situation that's aimed at. --Trovatore 03:30, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
WP:NOR#Example_of_a_new_synthesis_of_published_material_serving_to_advance_a_position is very clear. It happens when fact A is from a reliable source, fact B is from another reliable source, and someone writes: "A and B, therefore C". In this case, there is no C. Hence, WP:NOR doesn't apply here. --Lou Crazy 03:48, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
The "C" is clearly implied. You can't hide behind the fact that you're not openly stating it. Now, if you could find a commentator who's pointed out that incongruity, you can quote him or her. But a coy "it should be noted" is not consistent with an intellectually honest denial that you're putting forth a thesis. --Trovatore 03:54, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
If we were to remove from Wikipedia all facts which "clearly imply" something else, there would be nothing left. That's why WP:NOR#Example_of_a_new_synthesis_of_published_material_serving_to_advance_a_position is so clear in only condemning the stating of any conclusion "C". WP:NOR means Wikipedia shouldn't publish original research, it doesn't mean we should remove all means for a reader to do his original research on his own. --Lou Crazy 04:06, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
I've cut out the most tendentious part of the wording; it now states the facts rather than your conclusion about whether he had "problems" governing in that situation. It's still problematic with respect to WP:NOR, but less so. --Trovatore 04:12, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
Facts cannot be removed from an article just because they allow for a conclusion to be drawn, but they should not be presented in a way that leads to a conclusion either. If you have truely left just the facts and removed the conclusion than there is no WP:NOR problem at all. - Kuzain 19:21, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
I like the way Trovatore reformulated the concept, it is much more succint, I just nit picked on it a bit in my latest edit. --Lou Crazy 02:18, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

I live in Italy, those percentages are pure bullshit, where have you find them? how could he govern without majority at senato? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.4.37.179 (talk) 21:40, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Just go

I deleted some "contributions" under this paragraph because it was just a load of reciprocal insults. Sirio.a (talk) 15:47, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Please see Wikipedia's no personal attacks policy. Comment on content, not on the contributor; personal attacks damage the community and deter users. Note that continued personal attacks may lead to blocks for disruption. Please stay cool and keep this in mind while editing. Thank you. --Army1987 19:03, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
This is irrelevant, yes? Prodi is now to be commissioned as PM. Wally 18:47, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

The press aren't talking about the Italian Communist Parties 'stealing' the election. Despite the fact most of it is owned and controlled by Berlusconi! International observers aren't in an uproar, so please restrain your colourful imagination. User:Merlov 10:24, 24 April 2006

[edit] Berlusconi's resignation

Berlusconi has announced that he will resign on Tuesday, 2 May 2006 [2] [3]. We should maybe talk about how the article will change when that happens, given that Berlusconi will have resigned, but his successor will not yet have taken office. Will Berlusconi then be a caretaker prime minister, or will there no longer be a prime minister? --Trovatore 17:48, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

I don't exactly know what you mean by caretaker, but I guess that the premiership will formally be vacant. --Army1987 19:34, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
Caretaker sounds like an accurate characterization. Otherwise we can just call it an interregnum. Wally 21:48, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
Well, there's a question of fact here. Is the office vacant, or does he continue to exercise its functions until his successor takes over? For example, what if the President of the Italian Republic (currently Ciampi) takes some action that needs to be countersigned by the prime minister; would Berlusconi do it, or can it just not be done? --Trovatore 21:59, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
He'll be in charge for current affairs only. --Lou Crazy 20:51, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
Well, that's not really an answer. Will he be, formally speaking, prime minister, or not? Surely this is a yes-or-no question. --Trovatore 22:00, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
The question is more basically Will there be an interim Prime Minister? Answer that and the Berlusconi question is not so obtuse. Wally 05:00, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
Well, OK, that would be a start. Do you know the answer to that? Or how to find out? --Trovatore 05:12, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
If one looks at a list of prime ministers along with the dates of previous elections, one sees that the 2001 election was held on May 13, and Amato remained prime minister until June 11. The 1996 elections were held on April 21, and Dini remained PM until May 18. The 1994 election was held on March 27, and Ciampi remained PM until May 11. In none of these cases does there appear to have been a separate caretaker prime minister. This suggests to me that the old prime minister generally remains as caretaker PM until the new government is formed. john k 07:08, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

As someone who lives in Italy and has been following it's politics for 15 years, I would take the opportunity to clarify the resignation. Once an Italian PM has resigned, the President of the Repubblic starts the procedure to form a new government. Note that this actually starts when the PM hands in his **notice** of resignation. In practice there must always be someone covering the office, and in the case of a change of government the PM will (at the request of the president) stay at his post until the newcomer is sworn in. If the ex PM is not available or new elections are required an interim PM will be found, however, as Prodi is ready and waiting in the wings, this is unlikely to be the case. Under normal circumstances, with a new government ready, this interim (or caretaker role) would only last 2 or 3 days. It may take longer this time because there is the complication of electing a new President (Ciampi's mandate expires on the 18th March). It appears that both left and right are split on this issue, with people from both sides preffering to elect President before the new government or visa-versa. Either way, it will only delay iterations by a few days as there are strict time limits on the procedures. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 80.117.158.42 (talk • contribs) 11:15, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, that's helpful. --Trovatore 15:53, 2 May 2006 (UTC)


From today's Corsera:

Ciampi ha invitato Berlusconi - si legge in una nota del Quirinale diffusa al termine del faccia a faccia - «a rimanere in carica per il disbrigo degli affari correnti».

So that seems to answer the question—we should continue to note that Berlusconi is pm (perhaps with an explanation of his limited role), and remove that notation only when Prodi actually takes office. --Trovatore 17:19, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

Then the current wording of that sentence is ok. --Army1987 13:10, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Weak traitor

I deleted some "contributions" under this paragraph because it was just a load of reciprocal insults. Sirio.a (talk) 15:44, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

I don't like Berlusconi at all, but I think a Wikipedian shall not be firing at him. This is a neutral place, and if we call him SOB, we can't blame him (as we do) for calling foes "assholes". M-I-Rite? --Frank87 14:20, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

I think you may not fully appreciate the subtleties of Dzoni's position. He appears to take the view that Berlusconi should have held on to power, legal niceties or no; his treason was in not doing so, and thereby handing over Italy to the "Comunistas". This is, shall we say, an interesting position to take, given that Dzoni makes no secret of his support for Slobodan Milosevic. I guess there are comunistas and comunistas. --Trovatore 17:45, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
See, that's what you all are missing. Milosevic was a good communist, yeah? None of this income redistribution to combat inequality or national healthcare crap. Just good old crusades towards ethnic purity. And isn't that really what Marx and Lenin wanted in the first place anyway? Wally 19:06, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

Ignore the troll, guys. Dzoni is a self-admitted fascist whose only purpose on wikipedia is to call people "smelly comunistas". john k 00:30, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

Ridiculous. I bathe quite frequently, thank you. Wally 04:41, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
Oh, rats. So would it be impolite for me to point out that Milosevic is a good communist, now? Nothing personal intended towards present company, I assure you :-). --Trovatore
Usually Romano Prodi is the designated "smelly comunista," not any wikipedians. john k 05:47, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

Prodi is a social democrat, not a communist. User:Merlov 11:57, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Even "social democrat" might be pushing it; he has a pretty free-market rep. Maybe "third way" wouldn't be a bad description. However he does have self-described communists in his coalition (in fact one of them is the new president of the chamber of deputies). --Trovatore 22:20, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
Prodi is a centrist europhile, he's associated with the strongly eurofederalist European Democratic Party... Which is good news for the Union. =] —Nightstallion (?) Seen this already? 00:46, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

I know he's centrist. He's been hanging around with Blair since 1998, the smae with the rest of the 'third way' cabal of Europe. He's not even center-left in my view. User:Merlov 10:37, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Neutrality Issue

From reading the main article, I can not believe how one-sided the writing is. It is although Mr Berlusconi himself has written it.

I can only assume that pro Berlusconi supporters are behind this article and I hope that in the very near future that we can remove the warning on the front. Please can someone chance the article and make it more 'balanced' and realistic, rather than reading like a CV? Hayday 10:16, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

It does not appear to me to have been written by "supporters"; there's lots of information on criticisms of him, and on his legal troubles. Seems fairly neutral. It's true that you have to read through a lot of text before you get to the critical part; perhaps a sentence or two alluding to it could be added to the lead section, or earlier in the lead section. The lead section is a bit long (see WP:LEAD); ideally it should be shortened, and then if it contained references to the criticisms, they would be more prominent. --Trovatore 14:34, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
Agreed. Indeed, I think you'll find that most of the people involved here on this article are lukewarm to Berlusconi (at best). Don't let's confuse a thorough article with a positive one. Wally 19:08, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

In the "influence on media" section it is reported that RAI was fined by the Authority on Communications. It lacks also the information that Rete4 and Italia1 (two Berlusconi-owned televisions) were in fact fined at least twice for violating the par condicio. The fines were the highest to date. It should be fair to insert it so that the information would be less oriented on defending Berlusconi and more towards presenting all the facts. See [this article]. Italian articles are here: [Rai News 24 article]. Without this this part of the article is biased, imho. Matteo 16:13, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

Well, add it, then. If it starts getting too long, condense it (say, give a count of violations of each type, rather than explaining each violation). --Trovatore 15:51, 8 May 2006 (UTC)



Every ' Lecislative Actions area statements are true,If You see L'Espressoor other non-filoBerlusconian newspaper You will be confirmed! (ex-Giannizx1)

[edit] I would like to remind all contributors that this IS an encyclopedia.

... and therefore we shouldn't be here fighting each other to impose our personal views. There are many great pages for political discussions but wiki isn't one of them. The neutrality of this page is questionable at best. I'll take as an example the "personality" section has NO scientific background or any factual statement, and it doesn't even give facts. First, his connection with Mafia and Craxi doesn't belong to that section, secondly i hardly see any connection between wearing a bandana and the personality of a man, third when he compares himself to famous historical figures he is CLEARLY joking.

Apart from neutrality, the article is a big mess. Facts, opinions and personal statements are freely blended in sections whose title differs from the content of the section itself (personality was only an example).

I hope some wikipedians more skilled and more resourceful than me will try to fix this page, at its current state it is maybe the worst page of a living politician. Sir_Dante

Your points here (for the record, please sign your name in the future with four tildes) are valid, but they could themselves be taken to be POV. For example, 'scientific background' in the personality section? What would you have us do, offer his psychotherapists' notes on the man's character? Personality in general is a matter of interpretation and extrapolation; the most we can do is attempt to offer our views.
Secondly, though you suggest he is joking about his comparisons to many famous historical figures, a great many Italians (and people in general) do not agree that they are jokes, and do not seem to take them as such. Many people see them as tasteless grandiloquence — in the interests of full disclosure, I am one of them — and might wonder if that alone is enough to disqualify him from running the government of such a prominent nation on the world's stage.
Neutrality at Wikipedia does not mean displaying no bias so much as it does being equally-biased, such that all manner of opinions are taken into account and synthesized in the article. This is so a coherent but nuanced picture of the figure is acheived. It is bias to say, "Berlusconi is a criminal"; however, it is not bias to reference someone who holds that opinion (for a famous example, The Economist).
I think, personally, the article is quite neutral as it stands. Why? Because we've received complaints at about parity that it is not neutral from Berlusconi supporters and detractors. That both sides think the article is biased against their view suggests that some glimmers of unpleasant truth are being exposed.
My opinion and mine alone, obviously. Wally 22:28, 20 May 2006 (UTC)


Sorry for not signing in, i'm still new to editing & writing in Wiki. I tried to leave out my personal opinions and nationality from my writing, but it seems it's needed. I'm Italian and strongly against Berlusconi. However, this is an encyclopedia!

I didn't say that any comment or opinion or fact about Berlusconi in this article is wrong (did I?). Let's make some examples:

-personality. Personality section MUST have some scientific background. Otherwise it's better to call it "people's opinions on B. personality". This is a living person, history hasn't already discovered his personality (IF it will be discovered). -Berlusconi joking about himself: we (as we, italians) know that Berlusconi has a high opinion of himself but i can't remember anyone taking him seriously (apart from extreme left newspapers, and still not including left leaning newspapers).

- Lets put the FACTS, this guy got RICH making business protected by CRAXI, who scaped to Tunisia!!! - Is a fact that B. will be in jail if himself would not make new laws. - Is a fact that his tv is protected by all ministers and goverments, being a monopoly. - Is a fact he is a bold darf old guy. lol —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.140.6.120 (talk) 19:12, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

NPOV isn't only a matter of WHAT you say but of HOW you say it. Your Economist example is very good, showing the difference between the two variants "X said Y about W" and "I think that Y is W". This page falls very often in the second category.

And as i said, it doesn't need only a NPOV, but a general cleanup too.

Sir_Dante

[edit] An error

There is a typograpgical,possbily even a data error that needs to be addressed.

According to Forbes magazine, Berlusconi is Italy's richest person, an allegedly self-made man (see section) with personal assets worth $120,000 (USD) in 2005, making him the 11th richest person in italy [1].

I deleted the "contributions" under this paragraph because it was just a load of reciprocal insults. Sirio.a (talk) 15:41, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] This article will be neutral in year 2100 (maybe)

By long experience I know it's not the worth while trying to make this article neutral: there is a majority of so-called contributors (mostly left-winged italians) who are physiologically unable to distinguish their political views (=POV) from neutrality (=NPOV) and wikipedia from their own party political broadcast. If this is "democracy", well, wikipedia is democratic, but I do believe that wikipedia should be at first an "encyclopedia". Now, IMHO, for politically-sensible articles, it isn't -- @ hi 12:37, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Totally agree. Checco 17:03, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Controversies

There was another reported controversy involving Berlusconi and then Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder of Germany. Berlusconi was apparently at a state dinner with several leaders of European Union nations and, after having made a sexist remark about sleeping with many women, nudged Schroeder, who had been divorced and remarried at least 3 times before, and said something to the equivalent of, "you ought to know about getting around with the women, eh, Gerhard?"


[edit] This Article is Unbalanced

In my humble opinion it seems a bit too "pink" and easy in the way it depicts berlusconi and it is NON UP-TO_DATE

I would like to ask at the very least to update the picture .. mr.berlusconi is 70 y.o that picture has been taken some 20 years ago, there should be a real picture of berlusconi in place.

That photo is not too old. (He looks like that in TV, too.) The fact is that that man looks much younger than he is because he has his face lifted more often than his hair cut... --Army1987 22:18, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Why the trials are only quoted as a link ?

The guy is a convicted criminal and still has many trials running both in italy and abroad.. why they are quoted only as a link ... kind of concealing them ?

It was me who moved the list to a separate article. I did that because the article was very long, and the full list was boring for somebody just looking for a bio of him. (Articles should be kept shorter than 32 KB, see WP:SIZE.) However, I agree that the fact that he has committed so many crimes is important, so a brief summary could be added to the main article and would be very useful. --Army1987 22:34, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

There should be a section at least summarizing all his crimes and indictments, and also his political shenanigans to duck charges-instead of this being buried in "entreprenurial career". I dont think there is even a mention of the law he pushed through parliament granting him total legal immunity (although this was thankfully struck down by the supreme court). sorry dont know how to sign

You can sign with four tildes ( ~ ), or with the button "Your signature with timestamp" at the top of the edit box. --Army1987 12:20, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

The TRIALS section has been AGAIN REMOVED and cut out of the article .. ( by Mr.ARMY ) .. moreover the trials list is also NOT updated .. the article is disgustingly biased..

[edit] This article is biased

Why the so many trials, investigations and crimes are kind of "understated" ?

The overall tone is overtly adulatory throughout the whole article.

Is there some reason for this ?


I'll go with biased, but adulatory? Why does his ownership of media sources and conflict get 1/4 of the introductory paragraphs? Is this really the best summary of a person? Obviously someone wants to drown him scandal. -cb 1/27/08 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.220.238.40 (talk) 19:18, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

There is obvious bias in the joke section around the Kapo comment. Why is the author making a defense of the guy because he's socialist? What do you think Nazi stands for? I can't honestly believe the author thought he wrote this with a neutral point of view. -CB —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.220.238.40 (talk) 19:26, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Decriminalization of false account statements

Why this grave fact is noted with just a single line as "other pieces of legislation"

   * the decriminalization of false account statements;


together with some other similarly serious legislative acts such as

* the suspension of trials against the highest officers of the state during their terms

(this law was later declared unconstitutional);

* a much shorter statute of limitation for white-collar crimes;

I hope there is a valid reason for these under-statements.. there's a ill drive to conceal bad things .. uh ?

[edit] POV FORK on the Trials !

The guy that eliminated the trials from the articles made an unacceptable breach of Wikipedia Policy

Content forking

A POV fork is an attempt to evade NPOV guidelines by creating a new article about a certain subject that is already treated in an article, often to avoid or highlight negative or positive viewpoints or facts. This is generally considered unacceptable.

The generally accepted policy is that all facts and majority Points of View on a certain subject are treated in one article.

Splitting off a subtopic is not a POV fork. A POV fork is when you write a competing article on the same topic. It wasn't done perfectly in this instance; a fair summary of the "trials" article should have been left in this article, not just a pointer, but that can easily be rectified. --Trovatore 21:40, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Thanks Trovatore .. hope you can do that !

It was me who moved away the list of trials, and I don't like Berlusconi. --Army1987 18:25, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Neutrality on Religion

Sorry, but at the bottom of the page there is a line that says that it was blasphemous for Berlusconi to compare himself to the Lord Savior. In the first place, one must consider that this is a fallacy since it is begging the question. How do we know that Jesus really was the lord savior? I just think we should change this to maybe just Jesus.

[edit] Personality

Is it not important to also say that as much as he is loathed a large percentage of the Italian population strongly support him?

Yes, but you should notice that he controls information. The nazist party was strongly supported, too.

      • Logical fallacy above, as an Italian citizen, I can say he has strong support from the academic community who to say the least are know for critical thinking.--Caligvla 08:14, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Academic support?? Jeez, are you serius?? Are you really Italian?? Everybody in Italy knows that educated people for the most do not favorite the Berlusconi. Even Berlusconi knows that. In fact he accused "communists" to have infiltrated schools and university. http://www.aidanews.it/articoli.asp?IDArticolo=2624 "Anche a causa di questa polarizzazione di età si è accentuato in questi dieci anni il connotato che più caratterizza l'elettorato azzurro: la presenza maggiore di elettori con titoli di studio medio- bassi (che si trovano più frequentemente tra i meno giovani) e un minor successo tra diplomati e, specialmente, tra i laureati."

[edit] Unbalanced

This is one of the most unbalanced articles in en.Wiki. It seems that it was written to GLORIFY that convicted criminal .. Berlusconi. Very sad and shameful for Italy Checco 17:00, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

It is dangerous, undemocratic, nazo-fascist to claim that an electorate is "Ignorant". Someone here commented that people that vote for Berlusconis were less educated. That is really really dangerous, it draws us back some centuries. I have two degrees, and I am very well educated. Many friends and colleagues of mine are very well educated. Most of the italian lawyers, not the judges maybe, vote for berlusconis. Just like 40% of the doctors, 95% of the finance sector, many many people in other areas as well, and we all know it ... 95% of the entrpreneurial sector (that can be very well educated but not always in phylosophy, history, latin or anthropology.....), not to forget the great majority of the Officers of the italian armed forces (all of them hold equivalent of 5/6 research degrees plus something like 20 technical /engineering/scientific degrees, and are all capable to manage up to 1 million people marching to an objective. Also, don't forget that most of the educated middle-class is split in two coalitions.... the difference is now 20 thousand votes between them... how can you label these variagated electorate?

I am not saying anything political here. I laugh at the vanity of the people that claim to be in the position to judge an electorate, and label it, just like Hitler did with the Jews, like Stalin with the rest of his country, like the Hutus said of the tutsis in Rwanda. I know there are a lot of dangerous people around the world, including in my lovely holyday resort and native country, Italy. Never label a group of countrymen - YOU are always one of them.

I don't know if it's the case, but if there had been a serious study showing that statistically voting for Berlusconi correlates to a certain degree with lower education, it would be not "dangerous, undemocratic, nazo-fascist": it would be simply a fact. "dangerous, undemocratic, nazo-fascist" would be implying that these votes count less, but it isn't the case. In fact, the most widespread comment I heard on this matter is "the left lost its ability to speak to the poor". (I take for a fact that poverty highly correlates to lower education)
"great majority of the Officers of the italian armed forces (all of them hold equivalent of 5/6 research degrees plus something like 20 technical /engineering/scientific degrees..."
Sorry but this claim is a bit too far off to go unnoticed... I have been in the army, officers usually have one university degree of equivalent level to a M.S. sometimes not even that, there are Lt. Colonels promoted by career whose level of education is high school. Very high officers may sometimes have more than one university degree or equivalent, of course. Massimamanno 23:37, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

I am italian and I don't share that was saying here on Berlusconi. this section isn't neutral and is against Berlusconi, evidently . You should modify it, please. If I could modify it, I would have already made it, but my English does not allow me. Good bye Col 84.222.17.8 14:34, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Do you mean "this section" of the talk page? There is no requirement that comments on talk pages be neutral. If you have a complaint about the neutrality of some section of the article, that's different, but you'll need to be more specific. Volendo si puo' scrivermi in italiano, alla mia pagina discussione. --Trovatore 18:19, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Singer

Someone should add some information on his career as a singer . Translation from the Italian Wikipedia on this subject:he worked as a singer and entertainer on cruise ships when he was young and in 2004 he relesead an album of Neapolitan songs written with the help of a Neapolitan composer named Mariano Apicella.--Raggiante 19:29, 9 November 2006 (UTC)


Someone might add some more RELEVANT info about the latest development and the NEW trials .. it is more important than his "singing career"

EVERYTHING about a person is relevant, his singer career as well his trials. I don't know how many countries in the world had a PM undergoing trials and meanwhile writing songs. Finally, please sign when you write a post. --Raggiante 17:02, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] About POV and citing sources

I blinked at the legislative action and there are some unclaimed statements. Remembering how wikipedia is not original research, please post the sources or we'll have to delete some statements that are clearly not neutral. This isn't the place for political activism, please cite the facts and restrain from personal comments and your original research unless you can support them. Sir Dante 14:28, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "Flirting" section

Come on, should this really be the second thing after the table of contents? This isn't People magazine; let's stay away from the personal trivia (and I think that includes the pacemaker too). Birth, marriages, children; all that's OK, treated briefly, but details in this area are not particularly "encyclopedic", I think -- they're not of much interest to scholars, and will be forgotten ten years from now. A small mention of the flirting thing could conceivably go in "Controversies". The pacemaker I think I'd simply drop; it strikes me as recentism to mention it at all. --Trovatore 03:34, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Article ignores Berlusconi 's film career

Berlusconi produced several films including the academy award winning film Mediterraneo. This should be included in the article. I plan to add a small section that should be expanded --Ted-m 04:22, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

That strikes me as not extremely encyclopedic, borderline at best, unless he had some serious creative involvement with the film, which I can't rule out but kind of doubt. The producer (film) article says that major investors sometimes get an honorary "producer" credit. I'm guessing the real producers were the Cecchi Gori brothers. --Trovatore 04:35, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Really too unbalanced

I am Italian and personally left-wing, in the past I contributed heavily to this article. It has clearly drifted left since the last time I read it, even in the parts I myself wrote, which were already originated by a left-wing person trying his best to be neutral. The section on "legislative actions" is especially embarassing. I seriously believe editors should try harder to achieve NPOV, and/or that more informed right-wing people should come here and discuss. No offence meant, just my impression. Massimamanno 01:50, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

It is worse than I expected at first sight. Guys, take very seriously what I am saying: be very careful of what you write. There are loads of unsourced or poorly sourced statements, some of which are simply wrong, others may be true but are still unsourced. Worst of all, there was an unsourced, partly clearly wrong, statement describing a crime! It was the following:
"One of the best men for the wedding was former Prime Minister Bettino Craxi, during whose government was passed a law named after Berlusconi himself, and who later fled Italy on corruption charges, with proven payments from Berlusconi."
Now first of all the writer was refering to the "Legge Mammì" which was widely regarded as a pro-berlusconi law but never took his name. But more importantly, the writer accuses someone of a crime for which he has never been found guilty, with no source at all, in a Wikipedia article! And this someone is the richest man in Italy, with an army of lawyers. Is there someone who wishes to destroy this place? Please read the very first banner on this talk page, the Wikipedia policy on biographies of living persons. Seriously people, I know what the political debate in Italy is like at present, but try to leave it out when you contribute on this page. Be objective ... but more importantly if you really are unable to be objective, at least be careful! Massimamanno 00:16, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
The article as it is, is a total mess, a disgrace and urgently needs sorting out because a lot of it looks like quite heavily potential libel. Renaming the article a Far-left view of Silvio Berlusconi would be suitable at this moment in time. - Gennarous (talk) 16:50, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
It is indeed messy, though not quite a disgrace. So welcome aboard, if you wish to help improve it.Nishidani (talk) 18:27, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Too long

This article needs editing


[edit] CRIME ACCUSATIONS AND MISCELLANEOUS ATTACKS NEED VERIFIABLE REFERENCES

I am going to request semiprotection for this page.Massimamanno 01:23, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Picture

Can someone upload a better picture of Silvio Berlusconi? The current one is very low resolution and looks bad, especially since its the first thing you see when you load the page. thebandman 23:22, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

I would like to let you know that Mr. Berlusconi actually is not Italian Prime MInister. I Typed "Silvio Berlusconi" on google.com and the first link I had was the wikipedia one, which says: "Hyperlinked encyclopedia article about the Prime Minister of Italy.". So the presentation is wrong and Prime Minister is not the right traslation of Italian "Presidente del Consiglio". Thank you

Er...guys...the real problem with the picture is THE HUGE AMERICAN FLAG !!!!...Remember Italy is not yet an american colony ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.165.232.66 (talk) 02:12, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

I agree: the picture with the American flag must change. I've have no idea what it's implying, but it's distracting Lio 07:55, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
I just replaced the image with one I "made" myself, showing only Silvio Berlusconi, cropped out from this image. I hope no one had any objections, but it is no doubt lightyears better than the previous image used where one, if looking carefully, could spot a human beneath a giant american flag. --Ojan (talk) 21:35, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
Well, I still think it's a little distracting that Berlusconi is reaching across his body, holding that disembodied hand. (Paging Tom Lehrer.) Somewhere there's got to be a free picture of Silvio by himself, no? --Trovatore (talk) 21:43, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
Certainly there ought to be a lot better images, but the problem is, as we know that they need to be free. The old image was very bad with the american flag in the background. If you can find a better, I'd be the first to celebrate. Or why not remove the "disembodied" hand with GIMP as the image is in public domain? --Ojan (talk) 22:00, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
Hmm, I'm not too enthusiastic about using digitally manipulated photos on articles about living (or even just non-fictional) figures -- that sounds like a can of worms to me. Of course even cropping is technically "digital manipulation" I suppose, but I think we can all see the difference. --Trovatore (talk) 22:04, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
I think this picture is just fine, great job! Lio (talk) 07:55, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Berlusconi is not Italian Prime Minister any more

I would like to let you know that Mr. Berlusconi actually is not Italian Prime MInister. I Typed "Silvio Berlusconi" on google.com and the first link I had was the wikipedia one, which says: "Hyperlinked encyclopedia article about the Prime Minister of Italy.". So the presentation is wrong and Prime Minister is not the right traslation of Italian "Presidente del Consiglio". Thank you Manbolo —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 85.18.66.26 (talk) 12:28, 6 May 2007 (UTC).

I can confirm the strange Google result, but as far as I can tell, it's not the fault of this article. Google's algorithms are a very close secret, and while they work amazingly well much of the time, there are bound to be bugs in them. --Trovatore 20:44, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
At least if they click through to the full article they can easily find the current Prime Minister via the information box. Google does have its limits... --Mike 01:11, 17 May 2007 (UTC)


He is the Prime Minister now.--86.45.152.184 (talk) 15:41, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Actually, no he's not. It is expected that he will be prime minister in the near future. Only after he is appointed by Napolitano and has won a vote of confidence in both houses should the article be updated to say he is prime minister. --Trovatore (talk) 16:05, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Introduction

This is by far the most ridiculous introduction to a wikipedia article i have ever seen...has nobody else commented on it? It is far, far too long.--CombatRock 21:06, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

I came to the talk page to make exactly the same comment. 80% of it needs to be absorbed into the main body of the article. Unschool 00:10, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Forza Corp and Forza/Fininvest ?

Never heard either of a Forza Corp or a Forza/Fininvest corporation. In case this are true could you please include some references? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 213.140.6.110 (talk) 10:02, August 23, 2007 (UTC)

[edit] References

The references are a mess. I started a clean up to link them clearly. - Mafia Expert 14:22, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "Entering the field"...

"In the early 1990s, the two largest Italian political parties, the Christian Democrats (Democrazia Cristiana) and the Socialist Party (Partito Socialista Italiano) lost much of their electoral strength..." Wasn't the Communist Party always larger than the Socialist Party? From what I read, the Communist Party has surpassed the Socialist Party in every general election to date...Aran|heru|nar 14:05, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Wrong sentence

One of the first sentences is wrong: "Berlusconi has twice held office as prime minister of Italy, most recently from 2001 to 2006". He was president for three times because in 2005 the governament fell but after that he led another one (the third one) from 2005 to 2006. Paolotacchi (talk) 17:47, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Vandalism

The following sentence was deleted without any valuable reason: "He is unanimously recognized as the best politician of the world of every time". User:PravoSlav.

WTF?! --M4gnum0n (talk) 14:24, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
So it should, its a POV sentence Ijanderson977 (talk) 15:37, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] References

I tried to diminuish them and I succeeded, but something has gone wrong. the numbers starting beneath no. 18 belong to no. 33. Can somebody please correct? I can't fix that 11347TCroa (talk) 16:31, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Austerlitz -- 88.72.20.61 (talk) 23:34, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

done --dvdb 20:13, 10 April 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dodo von den Bergen (talk • contribs)

[edit] Travaglio

The parenthetic remark, '(who is a columnist of the left official newspaper l'Unita)' is POV because Travaglio is a classical right-leaning liberal who does indeed contribute to Unità, but also to La Repubblica and to Corriere della Sera. While true therefore, it gives the impression he is writing from a leftwing ideological perspective Nishidani (talk) 07:16, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

You are right, so go and correct it.--Pokipsy76 (talk) 07:42, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
Already had corrected it before noting down my edit here. Unfortunately there is much to correct, and I don't know if clearing every edit here beforehand would prove functional. If I find anything really controversial, I hope to register the problem here beforehand though.Nishidani (talk) 21:36, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Matter from orig.lead to be trimmed down and reintroduced or relocated

I have excerpted the following from the lead, which was far too long, like the article itself. I suggest the key points lacking in lead be written briefly from this. The rest of the material can be integrated into the relevant section of the page.Nishidani (talk) 08:41, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

In economics, Berlusconi has endorsed conservative policies, such as lowering taxes and generally placing fewer constraints on enterprise, in an effort to encourage growth. In foreign policy, his views have been strongly pro-American, even at the expense of causing some damage to relations with other European countries. In particular he supported George W. Bush in the U.S.-led 2003 invasion of Iraq, and though constitutionally impeded from taking part in the war, sent a contingent of Italian troops to join the "Coalition of the willing" , in a peacekeeping role. In several key social policy areas, the Berlusconi government has implemented a conservative, rather than a liberal, program by passing stricter laws concerning immigration, artificial insemination, and drug use.

Considerable controversy surrounds both the constitutional legality of his television network, and its role in his political success. According to Berlusconi's adversaries, the Mediaset (Fininvest's media division) TV channels have played a crucial role in his political success by airing propaganda during news or other information-oriented programming. His supporters assert that the networks have always maintained a neutral political stance. After Berlusconi's election as Prime Minister, the left accused him of also abusing his position as premier to control the publicly owned RAI TV channels. In practice, they maintain, this permits him to control almost all TV sources of information, while the right insists that the RAI channels are, if anything, biased in favor of the centre-left. According to independent observers[1], two of the State channels (Rai 1 and Rai 2) had been indeed controlled by Berlusconi's government, while Rai 3 managed to retain independence and a critical stance. Such control, in a famous example, was displayed when Berlusconi called Member of European Parliament Martin Schultz a "Nazi kapo", and the Rai 1 news program showed the incident with no audio and offering a misleading account. Political debate in Italy has become rather alienating, as the contenders often seem to completely lack a shared information source regarded as neutral and reliable. Although Berlusconi officially resigned from all functions in his commercial group in 1994 upon entering political office, he is the largest shareholder and is believed to retain at least some control.

Assistance in disentangling this for a thumbnail précis would be appreciated Nishidani (talk) 08:41, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
Here it would be appropriate to cite the phone call between Berlusconi and the RAI administrator Saccà:
http://espresso.repubblica.it/dettaglio/Pronto-Silvio-sono-Sacca/1917587
--Pokipsy76 (talk) 10:22, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
That should go in (there is also an audio link, I believe) but in an appropriate section on his Conflict of Interest in the Media (which would include the Bulgarian Edict etc., the power to hire, intimidate asnd fire journalists who do not toe the line, also in Public Media). My problem with the article is not so much the general content, but its organization, which is episodic rather than thematic. For example, we have 'The Economist' but in May 2001, a whole series of Western mags and newspapers, El Mundo, El Pais, Der Spiegel, Le Monde etc., made similar comments. Hence we need a section along the lines of 'Foreign Newspaper Criticism', as we need one on 'Diplomatic Incidents'. This is going to take some work and patience. Regards Nishidani (talk) 11:09, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Silvio Berlusconi's Stance on the EU

Does anyone know what his views on the European Union are? I think this should be part of the article, especially with the upcoming vote on the Treaty of Lisbon. I would appreciate if someone added this to the article. Thank you. Artur Buchhorn (talk) 21:20, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

I can only tell you that the general consensus is that SB doesn't have any views on most things beyond his business calculations, but is ready to accommodate every view, depending on necessity, political lobbies etc. His major ally, the Northern League, was historically opposed to the E.U., since it wants regional devolution along the lines of Catalan. Under the influence of Giulio Tremonti, the economist, who was against the E.U. in the 90s but has now changed tack, the E.U. will be supported for (1) its potential as a legislative and economic block to put pressure on fair trade, perhaps tariffs on esp.Chihnese goods, and (2) for stricter immigration laws and collective border policing of the Mediterranean. Whether they join America ('I agree with American policy even before it has been formulated' SB) in using the Eastern E.U. newby block to create havoc, is unknown. They will, however, press for a E.U. repositioning of traditional geostrategic diffidence with GWB's aggressively 'pro-active' interference in the oil-producing Arab world, and will eliminate the slightly pro-Arab, pro-Palestinian traditions of Italy diplomacy, in line with Merkel, Sarkozy, and others. I will try to find something on this when it emerges, to include it.Nishidani (talk) 09:38, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Is he PM now?

Has Berlusconi taken over as PM yet? It`s been a while since the election. --Oddeivind (talk) 08:20, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

No. Or at least if he has, it's rather stunning that Corriere della Sera has not seen fit to make it a big headline (I've been scanning the headlines recently, not so much reading the stories in depth -- check it out at http://www.corriere.it, if you can read a little Italian). --Trovatore (talk) 08:26, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
The correct term for the next week or so is 'Italy's Premier-elect Silvio Berlusconi'. Shortly, the text may resume the wording used rather prematurely before it was, with pedantic rectitude, contested as inappropriate to this interim.Nishidani (talk) 08:59, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
There is no such thing as a "premier-elect". --Trovatore (talk) 16:49, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

I Italy the population votes for the Parliament, not for the President of the Council, which is elected by the President of the Republic (not by the citizens). See the Italian Constitution. Paolotacchi (talk) 13:24, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Yes, of course, I know. I just thought it was strange that it takes som much time before he takes over. --Oddeivind (talk) 15:43, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

So what should we do? It's very easy to check here on the institutional webpage [4]. All the English Wikipedia is wrong about italian cabinets. Paolotacchi (talk) 13:25, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Very few English speakers are likely to count the outcome of a cabinet reshuffle as a new term in office, even if you can argue that it legally is. We should say that he's been PM twice before, but with a note about the cabinet reshuffle. That's what I've done. --Trovatore (talk) 18:28, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
Is it really anyone that count a cabinet reshuffle as a new time as prime minister?? As long as he remains in office without a break, that is clearly one single term in office. Thus, he will now be a PM the third time. --Oddeivind (talk) 14:21, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
Well, I don't know about the "without a break" formulation -- I think if there's a new parliament, even without a different PM, I would probably count that as a separate term. --Trovatore (talk) 17:08, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

There is nothing to invent in the count. This is the official count Governi Italiani. We can't have "opinions" about it. The next one will be the 4' Berlusconi cabinet. Paolotacchi (talk) 20:43, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

It will be the fourth cabinet, but that is not necessarily the same thing as Berlusconi's fourth time in office. --Trovatore 20:45, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

What would be the difference? And moreover: the article on the history of Italian cabinets is completely mistaken. Paolotacchi (talk) 13:40, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

What article is that? As far as I know, there is no article called history of Italian cabinets or history of Italian governments or list of Italian cabinets or list of Italian governments. Nope, they all came up red. What we do have is a list of prime ministers of Italy. Prime ministers, not governments. This will be, by the way most people are going to be counting, the third time Berlusconi has been prime minister, even if it's technically his fourth government. --Trovatore (talk) 15:51, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

By that logic, Gordon Brown is in his second term with his shuffle. A new cabinet is not a new term. Therequiembellishere (talk) 22:19, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I was referring to the article list of prime ministers of Italy (the title too is uncorrect, because in the Italian Constitution there isn't the idea of "Prime" minister). Moreover the count is uncorrect (you can verify it at the link to Governi Italiani) and it doesn't matter if abroad the most of people don't know how we count the Presidents and their cabinets. The most of Italian Wikipedians write "perchè" instead of "perché", but not for this reason "perchè" becomes correct. Paolotacchi (talk) 07:42, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
Dear Therequiembellishere, there is a big difference between Italy and the United Kingdom. Every time that a PM forms a new government there are a new oath of office and a vote of confidence in Parliament, so that only at that point the new term starts. Italian PM is a very weak figure: he cannot fire his ministers and thus reshuffle the cabinet. --Checco (talk) 11:23, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

This is because Italian PM does not exist. It's not a Premier, but only a President of the Council of Ministers. Paolotacchi (talk) 16:41, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Exact date?

I just heard on the news (BBC) that Berlusconi has taken over as prime minister, but according to the information here on Wikipedia he toook over on the 8. of May. What is the correct date? --Oddeivind (talk) 06:33, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

8 of May, when he did the oath in front of the President of the Republic who named/elect him. Paolotacchi (talk) 21:53, 11 May 2008 (UTC)