Talk:Silas Simmons
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[edit] Age issue and the bandwagon effect
Silas Simmons was an unknown quantity until being 'discovered' in 2005. For those who don't follow 'supercentenarians' closely, that's right...2005. It took a year for the major media to pick up this story.
In regards to Silas's age claim: I've been informed by direct sources that the 'verification' for Sila's age came from his WWI draft registration (written in 1917). Please note that this falls outside the rules for 'proof of birth' as Silas would have been 21/22 at the time. The rules were established before this case came to the media attention. With no birth certificate, so far the earliest document, the 1900 census, lists Silas as 2 years old, born Nov 1897. Thus, there is no proof of birth but there is a document that casts doubt on the age claimed. All the feel-goodism and bandwagon mentality won't change the facts. Saying 'the records must be there' when you don't really know, is to engage in an appeal to emotion (i.e. fallacious argument). If, on the other hand, someone has some facts to prove Silas's age, bear in mind that I am the Senior Consultant for Gerontology for Guinness World Records, and we could include him in the 2008 edition, possibly. As I mentioned, if 'only 108' Silas would still be the recordholder. Thus, what is not in dispute is that he is the oldest person to have played professional baseball. What is in dispute is whether Silas was born in 1895 or 1897.
And in regards to draft records: please check out Moses Hardy. Moses's draft record lists him as born June 5 1894, but the 1900 census lists him as born Jan 1894; the 1910 census as age '17,' the 1920 census as age '29,' the 1930 census as age '37.' Moses's family claims he was born Jan 6 1893. If that's true, then Moses's draft record is wrong. Just as the census could be wrong, so the draft record could also be wrong.
Now, I did state that Silas was 'probably' 110. However, it has not been proven that he is 110 according to the standards currently in force for Guinness World Records, the Gerontology Research Group, the Max Planck Institute for Demographic Research, the US Social Security Administration (Kestenbaum Study), etc.
Finally, Wikipedia is not a crystal ball. If/when Silas makes it to Oct 14, then it will be time for him to be '111'.
Sincerely, Robert Young → R Young {yakłtalk} 12:24, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
People, this article isn't about 'Silas Simmons' my local neighbor, blah blah blah. There are 6.3 billion people on this Earth and if that's what this article is about, then it is not notable. Silas is notable in the context of his age and his Negro-league history. Please try to keep it in perspective.→ R Young {yakłtalk} 18:15, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
[edit] 1900 census
- Janes Simmons 40
- Amy Simmons 17
- Eugene Gooseberry 30
- Selas Simmons 2
- Johnny Simmons 2
[edit] Silas's mother's age and circular arguments
In regards to the following comments:
and this is obviously such as case since the age for Silas's mother would make her 13 years old when she had Silas. A neighbor could easily answer the information if the resident was not home. Silas' mother, Amy, is listed as born 1882, which suggests she gave birth at 15 (if in 1897) or age 13 (if 1895). Silas Simmons himself confirmed this was his date of birth as well as his family.
1. This is NOT 'obviously the case.' Studies of age claims show a marked number of age-inflated cases. Just because person X says "I'm 119" doesn't mean they are 119. The point of documented proof is to establish a standard that applies to everyone. Based on the standards of age verification, Sila's claim to 111 does not meet the standard. There is no birth certificate, and the earliest record lists him as born 'Nov 1897.'
2. The age of Silas's mother argues for 1897, given that it is more likely for Silas to be born when she was 15 than at 13. Also, how do we know that '1882' is incorrect? Given the ages of the granparents, the gap is not great, there, either.
3. Habib Miyan says he's 137, should we believe everyone just because they said so?→ R Young {yakłtalk} 18:21, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
[edit] 1915 marriage certificate
Greetings, it's a positive that people are actually searching for more evidence. Hopefully, like a court case, people will learn a little more than simply saying 'it must be true.' In the case of the marriage certificate, however, I'm not convinced that it says '1893.' The marriage record clearly is 1893, I have been reading old handwriting for many years. Please take a closer look at the scan provided. It could say '1897' or even '1892.' Does someone have a higher-resolution image? Yes I have provided a 600dpi closeup for your viewing. What made people interpret this as a '3'? - Because the document is clearly 1893. Is there something on the document that says, for example, that he got married at '21 years of age' or '22 years of age' or something to that effect? - No the document states the dates of birth of the bride and groom → R Young {yakłtalk} 00:41, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
Thanks. You can't tell that it says '1893' from the low-resolution image. This still leaves two problems, however:
1. We now have three conflicting documents listing 1893, 1895, and 1897. We can guess that 1895 is the most likely, although it is not certain 'beyond a reasonable doubt.'
2. If we go by the '20-year-rule,' 1917-1895=22 and 1915-1893=22, so neither is considered 'proof of birth.' Using the SSA study definition, only the 1900 census would count.
There may be remaining documents to discover, such as a school record, that could help prove 1895 or even 1893.
The bottom line: Silas's status as longest-lived 'professional' baseball player is secure, although his exact age is within a margin of 4 years.
Sincerely, Robert Young → R Young {yakłtalk} 04:06, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
Howe
