Talk:Sikorsky R-4

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[edit] Controversy

Piotr, there is no controversy. The R-4 is the first mass produced helicopter, reaching over 400 copies. Neither the Fl 282 or the Fa 223 can match that claim. --Born2flie 19:06, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

This is a controversy. Being the first relates to the date when something is initiated and its first appearance. The first helicopter which had jigs and factory equipment set up specifically to allow mass production was the Fl 282 and not the R4. The Fl 282 began mass production first. The earlier fl 265 was found to be more difficult to mass produce due to it's complicated airframe. The fl 265 was given a substantial production order but flettner set up his factories to focus on the 282 and the 282 began mass production before any other helicopter. It received larger official production orders than any other ww2 helicopter (over a thousand units) but only bombing of factories prevented this being achieved.
The designation of production number required to qualify as "mass produced" is completely arbitrary. If the statement is made that the R4 was made in larger numbers than other helicopters of the period then that is acceptable but to claim priority is absurd. An analogy would be to claim that the Volkswagon Beetle was the worlds first mass produced car because it was made in far larger numbers that the Model T ford.GregOrca (talk) 22:33, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Nice Photo

If anyone is interested there is a nice photo featuring a Sikorsky R-4 titled "US Navy Antarctic Expedition helicopter returns from survey of South Pole waters. The Coast Guard helicopter is shown landing on the icebreaker Northwind. In the distance are other ships of Task Force 68" on the Franklin D. Roosevelt Presidential Library and Museum web-site, it is dated 1940. Wikipedia:Public domain image resources list this site as public domain. The image can be found at http://www.fdrlibrary.marist.edu/images/photodb/23-0329a.gif. --Thefrood 19:10, 23 August 2007 (UTC)--Thefrood 19:10, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Intro

The intro appears to tell you more about the Fl-282 then the R-4 suggest that most of it can be deleted as not really relevant. MilborneOne (talk) 13:41, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

To be fair It is regularly claimed that Sikorsky's helicopter was the first to enter series production and reference to the prior use of flettner craft is commonly rejected . I would like to suggest that It is highly relevant that the real helicopter that first went into series production(Fl 282) is mentioned with supporting detail in an entry about a helicopter (the R4) that is quite erroneously claimed to be the worlds first production helicopter.

An introduction without establishing the R4's sequence in history in relation to the actual first production helicopters made in Germany serves to consolidate the Myth that the R4 was the first. This is simply not the case. It is also commonly stated that the R4 was the first helicopter to take off and land from a ship. The introduction places that misinformation in perspective by informing that Shipboard helicopters (Fl 265) retired from service with the Navy before any sikorsky helicopters had flown untethered. GregOrca (talk) 14:11, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

I have no problem with the Fl 282 being mentioned in the article it just need to be balanced and there is not a need for a full history of the 282 in this page particularly in the introduction. I will wait for others to comment. MilborneOne (talk) 14:55, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

: Well perhaps because these issues regularly arise with this craft it should be directly addressed and it could be stated in the introduction along the lines that "the R4 is commonly claimed to have achieved a number of helicopter firsts. However most of these common claims are myths and are more accurately attributed to entirely different helicopters manufactured by other nations. The Four most common erroneous claims are: 1. that the R4 was the first helicopter to enter series production. (reality Fl-282) 2. First Helicopter to take off and land from a ship (reality Fl-265) 3. First helicopter used operationally in combat (reality Fl-265) 4. First Helicopter to be tested for rescue operations (reality Fl-265 and Fa 223) The R4 received smaller mass production orders than its German rivals yet because its factories were immune from bombing in America, and the German helicopter factories were targeted and severely damaged, the R4 was able to be produced in larger numbers than the German production helicopters. GregOrca (talk) 16:18, 3 May 2008 (UTC)