Talk:Sigmar
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This article was nominated for deletion on 31 December 2006. The result of the discussion was keep. |
Please, yes, merge it. I can't claim to be in favour of fictional characters in Wikipedia in the first place, but if we have a page for every artifact as well the fictional entries will start to outnumber the factual! - Just zis Guy, you know? 11:12, 29 October 2005 (UTC)
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[edit] Christianity?
A couple of times, someone has mentioned in this article that Sigmar and the Cult of Sigmar in the Warhammer world are somehow analogous to Christ and Christianity. First of all, I find this an unlikely comparison. Both the details and broad themes of the two stories are simply out of whack. Second of all, and much more importantly, I don't think that there is anywhere in the Warhammer 'literature' that the two figures are compared at all; I'm sure that GW would avoid like the plague making any comparisons between their fictional skull-crushing deity and the real-life religious inspiriation of many of their customrs. As such, unless we can find some published, encyclopedic source that provides an analysis of the similarities and differences between Christ and Sigmar, then comparing the two or claiming that they are analogues of one another falls under Wikipedia:No original research; it's just one editor saying "I think Sigmar is like Jesus" and another editor saying "I don't think so". If there are no pre-exisitng sources holding that debate (which I'm inclined to believe is the case), then such a comparison doesn't really belong here. --Clay Collier 11:57, 29 October 2005 (UTC)
It's a mistake to conclude that the church of Sigmar has no resemblance to Christianity. While their clearly is a large number of influences within the character of Sigmar and his church a number of Christian themes can be noted within the writings:
1) He is a savoir figure born under an omen from the sky.
2) He left this world but is not 'dead'
3) He will one-day return to save the world.
The main facet however, of Christian influence can be seen within the church of sigmar, it should be noted that the sigmarite religion draws upon the darker facets of middle age/early modern church rather than a reflection of modern Christian thought and practice:
1) Usage of monks and nuns within the church
2) Disdain for polytheistic attitudes (animosity with ulric)
3) Disdain for mysticism (it was a sin to do any magic until Magnus the pious' reforms)
4) Witch hunters
5) Flagellants.
6) The symbol of sigma repels the unholy in the warhammer world in a similar manner to the cross in folklore.
7) Usage of cherubic imagery
8) Emphasis on purity
9) The church fulfils a similar role to the Christian church within the Holy Roman Empire as a Divine justification for the empire.
I don't really see how you could miss the Christian influence within the concept of sigmar, it is fairly obvious to a casual observer. While Sigmar and the church of sigmar do have a number of cultural influences one of these is clearly Christianity.
-Hermes
No, I'm afraid there isn't sufficient evidence of a connection for it really. In response to your three points:
1) Such things are common in many stories, not just those of Jesus.
2) Sigmar is very likely dead, there has thus been no distinct evidence for him being alive at least. Plus, when Jesus left the world he did not simply travel to a different land, he ascended to a whole other world. Sigmar merely ventured off into the East.
3) Only some sources state this, not all who follow Sigmar believe it.
The connection to the Middle Ages church is there, yes, but this is more because Warhammer is set in the same general period and this is the kind of church people associate with that time.
to your other points:
1) The closest to "nuns" are the Sisters of Sigmar, who are never referred to as nuns, and certainly don't bear any resemblence beyond their gender.
2) He bears animosity with Ulric, but did not oppose polytheistic beliefs as such.
3) No, it was never a "sin" to do magic, there's not really a concept of "sin". It was that magic was dangerous and feared by most, and also bore connections to Chaos. It was not because it was viewed as "sinful".
4) What about them? They have them, yes, but that doesn't connect Sigmar to Jesus.
5) As above. Flagellent is actually more often a term not directly associated with religion.
6) This is something common in all major religions, that a holy symbol can work against those deemed unholy. That's part of being a holy symbol.
7) Not commonly in Sigmar's church. That's more a part of 40K.
8) Again, something common to all religions, not just Christianity.
9) Not really. The Empire never claims such a need for justification in the same way.
While there are influences of Christianity, this is more because of the time period in which Warhammer is set. And let's take a chance to actually compare Sigmar (not, crucially, his church or followers) to Jesus. This article is about Sigmar after all, not his church.
1) Jesus died and was ressurected. This happened to the Chaos Bezerker Kharn in warhammer 40,000, but never to Sigmar. You want to compare Kharn to Jesus?
2) Jesus and Sigmar had totally different outlooks and ways. Jesus never advoated oor particupated in violence as Sigmar did. In this way Sigmar actually bears a much closer resemblance to warrior-kings of the time (as is the intention).
3) Sigmar never claimed his divinity, Jesus did.
4) There's no connection to the "son of god" aspect.
5) Sigmar has no stories similar to Jesus, such as the betrayal of Judas or the last supper.
6) No where does the cross come up with Sigmar. His symbol is a hammer, totally different.
7) Jesus was part of a religion that already existed long before he appeared, whereas a religion was founded based off of Sigmar, and after he had departed.
8) There's no reference to anything along the lines of the virgin birth.
9) Sigmar went on to become a king and ruler, Jesus retained his poor status.
There are probably many many other differences that I do not want to have to sit here and go through. Please, try comparing Sigmar and Jesus, not what was built up around them (for which there are -some- similarities, only due to the time periods).--Prophaniti 01:57, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
-Prophaniti
[edit] Middle ground
Prophaniti, as a Christian myself, I have no problem with saying that the character of Sigmar (Remembering we're in a fictional universe, of course!) HAS to be in some ways derived from that of Christ. Being a game designed in Great Britain, a country which has been throughout its history heavily influenced by the Christian faith, it is logical (to the point of being a no-brainer) that the creators of the game would take most of their inspiration with regard to religious matters from the religion which would, one way or another, be the most familiar to them. That would have to be Christianity.
Also consider the ideas of Joseph Campbell - certain concepts seem almost hard wired into humans in such a way that they almost subconsciously attain significance; for example, although the belief in the physical and historical resurrection of Christ is unusual, the fact is that basically every religious system has some concept of a being who can defeat death. Of course, the ambiguous life status of Sigmar is different from the robust claims of resurrection for Christ, but the idea is to create a world which resonates in our minds, not necessarily one which mimics or apes our own.
Allan Bullock once wrote a biography of Hitler and Stalin called "Parallel lives". He explained the title by saying that although there were many similarities in both mens' lives, in many ways their differences were equally significant. "Parallel lives, just like the lines they are named after, never meet," he said. In the same way, it would be fair to think of Sigmar as a Parallel of Jesus Christ (in some ways, not all) - similar, but neither identical nor intended to be identical.--Johno 11:43, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Primarch?
Is it worth mentioning the suggestion that, since the Warhammer world is supposed to be a planet in the Warhammer 40,000 universe, and that it's simply trapped in a warp storm, then it's possible that Sigmar was one of the Primarchs, belonging to a lost legion?
- I thought that GW had stepped back from the position that Warhammer Fantasy world was part of the 40k universe- the latest that I had heard was that GW considered them to be separate, just with similar themes and imagery. If there's published material from GW that suggests that connection (in the current or previous incarnations of the in-game cosmology), then it would be fine to add- we don't want to introduce original research into the article, however- in an article like this, it's easy for it to get drowned in a lot of conflicting theories and opinions about what the setting. --Clay Collier 22:25, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
- The only two places I've ever seen 'official' GW literature on are the original Realms of Chaos book, long since OOP, and the recent Liber Chaotica series, which are a sort of new edition of that old book, although the content is all new. I think both of those are considered canon, but they are silent on the topic of Sigmar. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Monkeyhousetim (talk • contribs) 12:05, 17 April 2007 (UTC).
- I think what I was thinking of was something said in an interview with a GW or BI writer- or possibly a FAQ somewhere. Circa the RoC era, there was definitely a lot of cross-over between the Fantasy and 40k line; that's been steadily decreasing over the years. Slaves to Darkness would be the most likely place for an old reference; I'll see if something more up-to-date exists on the web. --Clay Collier 12:18, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
- The only two places I've ever seen 'official' GW literature on are the original Realms of Chaos book, long since OOP, and the recent Liber Chaotica series, which are a sort of new edition of that old book, although the content is all new. I think both of those are considered canon, but they are silent on the topic of Sigmar. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Monkeyhousetim (talk • contribs) 12:05, 17 April 2007 (UTC).
[edit] Powers of the Warp???
Just a quick suggestion:
"In his fiftieth year of reigning, Sigmar put by his crown and set off to see what lay beyond the World's Edge Mountains to the east, in a similar fashion to the Dwarf ancestor/warrior deity Grimnir the Fearless, who legendarily strode off into the Chaos Waste to do battle with the Powers of the Warp."
Shouldnt this be edited so that it says something like "the Realm Of Chaos"? I know that the Warp and the Realm Of Chaos have simerlar connections, but The Warp is in Warhammer 40,000, The Realm of Chaos is Warhammer Fantasy —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.86.101.70 (talk) 18:45, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
