Talk:Sigma Nu

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Fraternities and Sororities WikiProject Sigma Nu is part of the Fraternities and Sororities WikiProject, an effort to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to Greek Life on the Wikipedia. This includes but is not limited to International social societies, local organizations, honor societies, and their members. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, visit the project page, where you can join the project, and/or contribute to the discussion.
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[edit] Matthew F. Maury Connections

Seeking uncommon connections between our Sub Rosa Sigma Nu Founders & the VMI physics chair (faculty mentor) who was a pioneering oceanographer - Matthew F. Maury between 1865 and 1873 ...

-- 66.45.149.40 14:47, 23 July 2006 (UTC) Note: Maury Hall, the home of the Naval Science Department at the University of Virginia and headquarters of the University's Navy ROTC battalion, was named in his honor.
KU "Social Network Analysis" keyword engineering skills (KU-SNA-kes)
-- 66.45.148.57 14:51, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

65.30.117.192 19:13, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
Bob-RJ Burkhart, LCDR-USNR,Ret.
Nu Chapter Alumni (N1123)
aka "geoWIZard"

I don't know that there is any connection. All official SN material considers Gen. Francis H Smith to be the "faculty mentor" type person to the founders. I've never heard of Maury except for here. The coincidence of using "naval ranks" that was recently added (and reverted by me) seems highly doubtful, as only "Commander", "Lt. Commander" and "Chaplain" -- to my knowledge -- are used in any way in the Navy (and exist in other military divisions too). Unless you've got some good evidence to back this up, I don't think we should include it here. --SuperNova |T|C| 20:12, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
I'm relying on both biogeography and social network analysis methods to reassess circles of influence. Please review Maury's Virginia heritage incuding his grandfather - Reverend James Maury who was Thomas Jefferson's teacher (1758-1760) ... I've also factored in VMI's proximity to the Maury River that flows through Lexington, Virginia
To get a realistic topographical "sense of place" (in hyperspace) ... Lexington VA to Maury River Confluence, 180.74°TN, 11.37 miles ... please preview this "Hybrid" view of our current Sigma Nu HQ location. --66.45.148.57 13:46, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
Given SN's initial subrosa roots, it's plausible Commodore Maury was a VMI Bible Study Group "spiritual mentor" who influenced our founders ethical leadership principles for peer mentoring.
Please see leadership learning "Eco-Challenge Courseware" updates posted at Talk:Maury_River#See_also
Matthew F. Maury
Geology: A Physical Survey of Virginia
Her Geographical Position, Its Commercial Advantages and National Importance
Virginia Military Institute, 1869 - (Same year Sigma Nu fraternity founded)
-- geoWIZard-Passports 01:33, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Bob Graham a Sigma Nu?

Was Bob Graham a Sigma Nu or a Phi Beta Kappa? On this page it says Sigma Nu, but on the Bob Graham page it states that he was a Phi Beta Kappa. Needs clarification.

PBK is an academic honor society and is not mutually exclusive with Sigma Nu or any other Greek-letter social organization. SuperNova 07:27, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Chapter List

Do we really want to have the full chapter list on the main fraternity page? Could we expand the main article and move the chapter list to a subpage? Letoofdune 04:31, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

It's not a good idea to have a chapter list using tables. The size for this article is already quite lengthy --† Ðy§ep§ion † 20:00, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Chapters for Famous Alumni?

I like how the alumni for Performing Arts, Literature, and Media have their chapter listed with their name. Can someone try to piece together chapters for the men in the other headings? --SuperNova 07:35, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

I'll see what I can do. --Scaife 07:38, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

I went ahead and added the political figures -- they're all easy enough to find. The Clarence Kelly link goes to a bishop though; pretty sure it's not the right person. Any ideas if the FBI/Sigma Nu guy has an article yet? --SuperNova 08:41, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

---66.45.149.40 13:21, 23 July 2006 (UTC) Corrected name spelling for http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clarence_M._Kelley

Has anybody found out what James Dean's situation was? His bio states he went to Santa Monica College (a junior college) yet he is regularly recognized as a Sigma Nu brother who did not finish college and moved on to acting instead. --CherryCokeNixon

From what I understand, he was inducted as a pledge, but somewhere along the way he got into a fight with a member, but was kicked out. Not sure about this though, --Scaife (Talk) Don't forget Hanlon's Razor 17:30, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
James Dean transferred to UCLA from Santa Monica College and pledged Sigma Nu but was never initiated for whatever reason. Some Sigma Nu chapters represent him as a member, while others don't because even though he was at one time affiliated he was never a full-fledged member. --† Ðy§ep§ion † Speak your mind 18:26, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
James Dean dropped out of college in January of 1951 to pursue his acting career. He dropped out before he was initiated, even though he completed all requirements to be initiated. His technical designation is a Neophyte. I have a pretty good listing of famous alumni and the chapters they came from, and will edit the listing accordingly. --Twoam KΣ 408 Love, Truth and Honor. 23:56, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Changes to style

Why is almost everything that I have done constantly being reverted? Love Truth and Honor are being hightlighted because they are the central tenets of Sigma Nu's philosophy. --Scaife 19:18, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

  1. I've certainly not reverted "almost everything" you've done — only a couple of instances of this sort of purplish typography.
  2. The use of bold, italics, and capitals in this way is stylistically poor, and unnecessary.
  3. Please don't misuse "vandalism" in edit summaries; it's a personal attack, and very much frowned on here. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 19:55, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
I changed it right back, sorry about that. I see your point, however I disagree with you. As a caveat your changes should stand as they are the least POV. I am a Sigma Nu and it is hard to be NPOV. Again sorry about the vandalism rubbish, that was my fault I was doing something else and edited the wrong page. --Scaife 20:01, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

That's OK. As an encyclopædia article it has to read dispassionately and neutrally, and that can be hard to achieve when it's something you're interested in or value highly. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 21:47, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Removals

I've removed the huge sections of text from "http://sigmanu.wlu.edu/nhistory.html" as it was all directly taken from that site which clearly states "©2005 Sigma Nu Lambda Chapter. All rights reserved." 68.39.174.238 06:30, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

Permission has been granted to use it. --Scaife (Talk) Don't forget Hanlon's Razor 06:52, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
Scaife - Just wondering if permission has come from the National HQ or just from the Lambda Chapter? The text of the article very closely mirrors the official national history (not one written by a single chapter), and I just want to make sure we have our bases covered. Thanks! --SuperNova |T|C| 07:34, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
HQ has given permission, since it is the "official" history. I included it in order for it to be expanded on as well. I have several books about the fraternity and hope to do some rewriting in the future. The rewriting has begun in some instances as well. For the record this history, which I had input on, is for all intents and purposes "free use" especially in this context. --Scaife (Talk) Don't forget Hanlon's Razor 08:43, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
Perfect! Just what I wanted to hear. --SuperNova |T|C| 20:50, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Flower

Just to make things clear for the person who keeps changing the description of the flower to "Classic five-petaled, wild, white English floribunda", and leaving hysterical messages at my Talk page about it — the description makes no sense. There are no wild roses of that description; the Floribunda roses are modern garden varieties, not wild. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 08:06, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

For what it's worth, I think the official flower is best described, simply enough, as a "white rose". I'd like to see a citation for any other name. --SuperNova |T|C| 03:37, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
That sounds reasonable (especially as most florubunda roses are not five-petalled, so even the currrent description is faulty); is there an image of the symbol in question? --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 10:03, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
To be quite clear the description as "The Classic Five-Petaled, wild, white English Flordabunda" is clearly stated in the History section of the LEAD 1 material. It doesn't really matter if it makes sense based on if it exists or not. The fact of the matter is that is the description that is given by the National Fraternity. If you like I can even quote the entire section here.
I know what the LEAD manual says, but I also know that the conventional description is simply "white rose". That's what's on the crest also. I don't have the Grand Chapter minutes here with me to see exactly what they officially adopted way back when, but I do know the rose bush growing in front of the headquarters building is a descendant of the one that originally inspired the symbol. If the official flower did not exist naturally, there would be no such specimen rose bush. However, in an effort to compromise, perhaps we should include the LEAD description and parenthetically note that it's a white rose, at least until we can cite a source saying otherwise. --SuperNova |T|C| 15:16, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Bias alert

Needless to say, this article appears to be largely written by fans. For example, this does not belong in Wikipedia:

"Walter Sears devoted much of his lifetime to Sigma Nu, but his name will be remembered best for his beautiful prose work, 'The Creed of Sigma Nu.'"

The Creed seems to be a workmanlike piece of nineteenth-century sentimentalism rather than "beautiful": "to understand that the laws of growth are the laws of God to believe that the melody of birds, the laughter of children the unmeasured sacrifice of motherhood . . ."—Preceding unsigned comment added by Editing (talk • contribs) 13:46, June 8, 2006

I don't know who this "Unsigned" chump is but his editorial opinions on aesthetics has no place in the judgement of the legitimacy of an article. I have no clue who wrote this article but it appears to have gotten most of its information from first hand sources (Sigma Nu International Fraternity) and thus is legitimate. If one can find some kind of "Sigma Nu bashing" source I would recommend they jump in and throw in the source, otherwise quit whining. -kyle

Kyle, you're confusing bias with authority. Mein Kampf is an authoritative primary source as to Hitler's thoughts, but that doesn't mean anyone should believe everything he reads in it. You're right, this unsourced article does look like it came mostly from SNIF -- which is probably why it does not meet Wikipedia standards. Some examples of bias that could be eliminated to improve the article: "they were prompted by the impulses of sympathy and affection for all people, which underlie abiding peace and contentment"; " It was soon to win the respect of all"; "his name will be remembered best for his beautiful prose work, 'The Creed of Sigma Nu'"; 'Every chapter had earned its own way by applying integrity in both purpose and method"; "one of the most meaningful educational initiatives ever undertaken by a college fraternity." Wakonda 19:55, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Creed abandonment discussion

Speaking of the Creed, is this article the place for the ongoing if minor discussion of whether Sigma Nu should abandon its creed? The Creed requires members "to respect every altar of faith built in God's name, by every sincere worshiper to whom, if we cannot give our sympathy, we shall not deny the kindness of our manly silence; and, whatever our creed, to reverence the Christ as the Divine Compassion for struggling humanity," and "to win the love and care of some incorruptible woman," neither of which seems entirely accurate or appropriate for today's Sigma Nu.

[[1]] —Preceding unsigned comment added by Editing (talk • contribs) 13:46, June 8, 2006


What on going discussion? I've never heard of anybody in the Sigma Nu organization demand an abandonment of the Creed. -kyle

I've never even heard of that creed. --AaronS 14:39, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
Are you a Sigma Nu? If so, I find that somewhat hard to believe -- where do you go to school? If you're not, then I'm not surprised; it's not exactly a famous document outside the fraternity. --SuperNova |T|C| 20:15, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] How Famous is "Famous"?

Do we have or need some sort of standard for what makes a "famous" alumni? It seems to me that having (or at least being eligible to have) a WP article should be required. As a result, I think we should seriously consider whether "redlinked" people belong here, and -- if not -- remove them.

If you're wondering, I was inspired to bring this up because of the addition of the Kansas Supreme Court judge -- fairly notable, but important enough to list here? I'm doubtful. But I'd like to see a consensus opinion before dropping him or the handful of other redlinks. --SuperNova |T|C| 20:20, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

I disagree. I think the judge easily qualifies as famous. Why would people read this section of the article? Obviously to find out who Sigma Nu's alumni are. Anything that affects people on a state or national level should qualify.Snuball65 21:10, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Not famous enough actually. You can't have everyone who is successful listed here; it would become massive for each fraternity and group. Jmlk17 22:26, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Officer listing

I reverted another edit to the officer listing. As I stated previously, the House Manager is not the 6th-ranking officer in the chapter (according to The LAW of Sigma Nu) -- in fact, house manager isn't even listed in The LAW as an officer. I don't believe it is appropriate to put locally-designated officers in this listing, which is supposed to reflect the entire fraternity. For the same reason, it's probably not a good idea to list members of the Executive Council, because that's something else that varies by chapter. (For example, we have Sentinel on it but House Manager not.) I don't believe Sigma Nu publishes anything saying who should "generally" be on the Council, so we shouldn't generalize here.

DH, it seems that we are brothers, so I really hate to keep reverting your edits, but we have to keep the quality of this and every article on Wikipedia up to certain standards. I hope you'll join me in doing so.

Love, honor, truth --SuperNova |T|C| 15:24, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "shortly after Hopkins witnessed what he considered a hazing ritual by another fraternity"

The future founder of Sigma Nu walked into the ritual of the Alpha Tau Omega Fraternity, which, at the time, involved foot washing. The Sigma Nu's nicknamed them "Blackfeet" and themselves "Whitefeet." It was not hazing...the founders of Sigma Nu were most likely jealous of the members of ATO. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.168.242.20 (talk) 18:36, 31 March 2007 (UTC).

why would the founders be jealous of ATO for washing their feet. thats ridiculous

[edit] My Edits/Reversions

I just removed/edited some revisions made a few weeks ago that I had not seen until today. First, there was a large addition in the lead section about "Rats" and such that was not cited and that I have never heard, despite considerable study of the fraternity's history. I removed it because I doubt its accuracy, and because such a large addition must be cited (even if true). Also, it was far too detailed to be placed before the first section header -- only the brief explanation for the founding should be in the intro, with details being placed in the History section. If someone wants to restore the addition, with a reliable citation, it belongs under a heading.

Secondly, some edits were made to Fraternity Structure that needed fixing. That section should rely only on the International Law of Sigma Nu, rather than on what individual chapters do; it was clear that one addition (describing members of the Executive Council) was chapter-specific as every chapter has its own rules regarding those positions. The edit also clumsily tried to explain the candidate-brother-knight distinction; I've attempted to put this is a form that is informative and useful to non-members.

For future editors (that are also members), please consider that individual chapters do differ in their approach to chapter governance, and this article must reflect the fraternity as a whole. Also, research beyond your chapter's candidate education materials before you make questionable additions to this article. Thanks, and best of luck in continuing to improve this article! --SuperNova |T|C| 10:12, 8 June 2007 (UTC)