Talk:Sigismund II Augustus

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was move to Sigismund II Augustus. —Nightstallion (?) 09:24, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Requested move

The name as it appears in most English-language encyclopedias, appears to be spelled Sigismund. The name "Zygmunt" is the Polish spelling. Is there consensus by the non-Polish majority of the Wikipedia community, to move the article back to the English version of the name? --Elonka 02:51, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

This Polish spelling is used by at least 32 English books, including the popular reference work by Norman Davies, God's Playground [2]. But I should add a disclaimer that as a Pole my note/vote should not be counted toward or against the 'consensus by the non-Polish majority of the Wikipedia community'. For the editors new to this issue, I'd recomment checking the Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (Polish rulers), however you should be aware that Polish editors seem to be active there, thus likely invalidating the discussion in the eyes of some.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 03:20, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes, 30 compared with 157 for "Sigismund II Augustus" [3], and 105 for "Sigismund II August" [4]. I find it strange that here, at Talk:Sigismund III of Poland and at Talk:Michał Korybut Wiśniowiecki you cite google, show that the English name is more common, and then use the Polish name anyways. What exactly do you think is gained by such an interesting argumentative strategy? And why do you bother arguing at all when you know you can just move articles away from English names and then demand a supermajority to move them back to pages in line with wiki conventions? I think you can be pretty sure your page names are safe from being moved. - Calgacus (ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ) 03:30, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

You made me feel much safer now. In return, may I interest you in such nice reading as Wikipedia:Assume good faith? I am sure you will find it intriguing. Also, you may want to note that Wikipedia:Naming conventions (common names) has an 'exceptions' section, which stresses the existance of the Wikipedia:Naming conventions (names and titles), a subset of which we are trying to discuss at Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (Polish rulers). Last but not least, Wikipedia:Search engine test is another useful reading, please note that 'Google dominant name' does not equal the 'most correct name for Wikipedia', although it is certainly a helpful tool.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 03:45, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

There has been an attempt to create a naming system specifically for Polish monarchs (but it is just a proposal and never received consensus), against the system used for other European monarchs. There is also the fact that most Polish monarchs now are located in places which contravene to general naming convention. There is no consensus for permission to use an exception for Polish monarchs, and such permission should be sought from consensus atWikipedia talk:Naming conventions (names and titles) where there is the thread Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (names and titles)#Need of particular exception/ convention for Polish monarchs. At that spot there are editors who are more or less experienced in overall picture of monarch naming and not only one country. It is deception to advertise any system for naming before a consensus there is convinced of the need for such exception. I hope all of you continue the naming scheme discussion for Polish monarchs there, before continuing or creating policy forks. Shilkanni 13:05, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Approval vote as survey for naming

Please add your signature under all (yes, to all) those alternatives you regard acceptable - acceptable in the sense that you can accept it as name of this article. Vote for all acceptable alternatives, even if there are two or more of such. Do not do anything to those alternatives that are not acceptable to you (do not vote explicit negative - that is not part of approval voting - in approval voting, being silent towards an alternative is the same as finding it unacceptable). (Do not add alternatives - it will probably disrupt the vote. It is thought that no other alternative than these ready ones would anyway garner any meaningful support or that other alternatives are non-alternatives, being essentially same as one of the ready ones here. If you feel strong preference to some unmentioned alternative formulation, raise it at Discussion section and see whether it ever receives any verbal support from others.)

[edit] Zygmunt II August

I accept this alternative:

• First choice.Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 15:54, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
• First choice. I prefer a less anglicized version. Sarge Baldy 16:34, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
• First choice. As above. KonradWallenrod 19:10, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
• Second choice M.K. 19:26, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
• First choice. Anatopism 04:23, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
• First choice. Appleseed (Talk) 18:22, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
• First choice. Mattergy 05:44, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
• First choice. As per Sokol's Polish Biographical Dictionary and other sources. logologist|Talk 01:16, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sigismund II Augustus

I accept this alternative:

• john k 13:45, 6 June 2006 (UTC). This would be acceptable, although I'd prefer "Sigismund II Augustus"
• Yes. Sigismund Augustus; but I'd rather Polish monarchs got restandardized as per wiki convention. - Calgacus (ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ) 15:56, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
• First choice, as this is how the name is spelled in my 1979 Encyclopedia Brittanica. --Elonka 16:25, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
• Second choice, most common rendering. Sarge Baldy 16:34, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
• First choice M.K. 19:26, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
• Dr. Dan 20:09, 6 June 2006 (UTC) Only choice. This is what his name was. Any further investigation of his name, tells you all the rest about him. No need for Hirohito of Japan, either.
• Secnd choice.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 15:54, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
• Juraune 06:16, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
• Yes. Marrtel 09:18, 7 June 2006 (UTC) (although I do not regard the ending -us necessary for August)
• Cyon 15:12, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
• Use English. Gryffindor 13:19, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
• Jonathunder 06:31, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
• Pro , even better without "-us". --Matthead 21:10, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sigismund II of Poland

I accept this alternative:

• john k 13:44, 6 June 2006 (UTC) First choice would be this or "Sigismund II Augustus of Poland". john k
• Best choice. - Calgacus (ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ) 15:56, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
• Yes. Marrtel 09:16, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
• Srnec 04:57, 8 June 2006 (UTC) Sigismund II Augustus [of Poland] is also viable, but this is preferred.
• Gryffindor 13:19, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
• Jonathunder 06:31, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sigismund II Augustus of Poland

I accept this alternative:

• 2nd choice. - Calgacus (ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ) 15:56, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
• Second choice. --Elonka 16:25, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
• Possibly first choice, I dunno, but definitely approve. john k 10:40, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
• Gryffindor 13:19, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
• Jonathunder 06:31, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Discussion

• Three way poll. Well, you can forget about having this page moved then. - Calgacus (ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ) 13:39, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

This is to build some semblance of consensus, not outright attempt to file a request for moving. Marrtel 13:45, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

And now, after more than a day, I feel that this survey has helped to find out what would be a compromise (Using English) to satisfy the biggest number of editors here. The present name received very little support, and that is from a certain non-English corner of the world. Marrtel 21:58, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

• Augustus or August?--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 22:07, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

We could be quarreling eternally over -is- in Sigismund/Sigmund and over -us in Augustus/August. IMO, Sigismund is better, and August without -us is better. Not extremely important differences though. Marrtel 09:19, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

I do not see why this is such a contentious issue if there are appropriate redirects. A user can enter any of the above options in the searchbox and reach the article, which is what really counts. However, if the page is to be renamed, it should be done so in a consistent fashion. "Zygmunt II August" is accurate in Polish; "Sigismund II Augustus" is accurate in English; "Sigismund II August" is accurate in neither (though it would work in German), and should not be considered. "Sigismund II of Poland" makes sense, but it may be worth keeping the August/Augustus name, as two later kings of Poland were named "August II" and "August III", counting Zygmunt August as the first of that name. My personal preference is that, in agreement with the increasing cultural sensitivity of modern scholarship, standard English forms redirect to the most appropriate vernacular usage, but any consistent form should be acceptable. Imladjov 15:33, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Voting

Let me put on a helmet, and a "flak jacket", an tell you all, my friends, that when I am drawn into vote in these "plebicites", I vote once, and only once. This second and third choice nonsense (and that's what it is), is a joke. And if I'm wrong, let me then go on record as saying my sixteenth choice, is "Son of Bona", and my seventeenth choice is "Ziggy". Dr. Dan 01:20, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Name as it appears in encyclopedias and dictionaries

The Wikipedia policy on naming says that articles should receive "the most commonly used English version of the name for the article, as you would find it in other encyclopedias and reference works." For everyone's use, here is a list of how this individual's name is listed in major English-language works. If you have access to an English-language encyclopedia or dictionary that is not listed here, please feel free to add another datapoint to this list. Thanks! --Elonka 22:09, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Encyclopedias

• Sigismund II Augustus (online Brittanica) [5]
• Sigismund II (online Columbia) [6]
• Sigismund II Augustus (1979 Brittanica)
• Sigismund II Augustus (Webster's Desk Encyclopedia, in "Jagiellon dynasty" section)

[edit] Dictionaries

• Zygmunt II (August) (Sokol's Polish Biographical Dictionary)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.