The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was move to Sigismund III Vasa. —Nightstallion (?) 15:13, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Requested move

This page was improperly moved to its current name of Zygmunt III Vasa, by a non-native English speaker who moved the page in violation of Wikipedia:No original research. It should be moved back to Sigismund III Vasa. Please indicate "Sigismund III Vasa" or "Zygmunt III Vasa" below to indicate your preference on page name. --Elonka 16:05, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

• Sigismund III Vasa, although it would be nice to eventually move these rulers to the "X N of Poland/Poland-Lithuania" format. - Calgacus (ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ) 16:08, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
• Sigismund III Vasa, as it appears in Encyclopedia Brittanica. --Elonka 16:10, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
• Sigismund III Vasa per Calgacus. Marrtel 22:30, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
• Object - keep at Zygmunt III Vasa. First, his first name should be the same as that of Zygmunt I the Old and Zygmunt II August, and in a larger picture, we have all Polish kings follow the system: Polish first name - number - English adjective - no 'of country' because it 'of Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth' or 'of Kingdom of Poland and Grand Duchy of Lithuania' is way to cumbersome. If you are dissatisfied with the naming system, feel free to gather majority support at [[ Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (Polish rulers). Second, in reply to Elonka, who seems to be fond of unbased accusations (although it is nice you started using RM), "Zygmunt III Vasa" is far from my (?) invention, it is used in several books, including one of the best popular histories of Poland, Norman Davies God's Playground ([1]), and with the 'Zygmunt' first name being no stranger to the English world and appearing in hundreds of books. Third, as has been pointed out in the convention name, there are many, many variants of names for every Polish king; for example, this one has been called (in English publications) from "Zygmunt III of Poland"[2] through "Sigismund III Waza"[3] to "Sigismundus Vasa"[4]. I don't have the will to count all the variants for this one but usually there is about 20 combinations for each king, and the mentioned above current variant is 1) among the most common (or to be specyfic: it contains the most common, on average, parts), 2) is not original research and 3) means we don't need any disambigs. Finally, I strongly recommend everybody reads professor Lukowski's words of widsom.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 01:19, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Google books has "Zygmunt III Vasa" at 6 [5] and "Sigismund III Vasa" at 93 [6] I'm afraid you have no case at all. As the farce at Władysław II Jagiełło (i.e. Jogaila for all you non-Poles) indicates, wikipedia conventions, historical balance, cross-national fairness and common sense have all been subverted in your desire to Polonize wikipedia monarchs. You are right though that "Zygmunt II the Old" and "Zygmunt II August" should be moved. Hopefully, the wikipedia community will get around to this eventually. - Calgacus (ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ) 02:04, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Oh, and btw, stop putting "of country" names to google test. The "X N of Y" format is wikipedia convention, and is not supposed to be the most popular name. - Calgacus (ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ) 02:12, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

• Keep Zygmunt III Vasa, for all the excellent reasons adduced above. KonradWallenrod 03:05, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

• Keep Sigismund III of Poland, no need to change it to some Polish mumbo-jumbo. The guy was Swedish anyway. //Halibutt 06:25, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
  • What happened? --Irpen 06:56, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
• Keep Sigismund III of Poland as per Halibutt. --Irpen 06:56, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
• Zygmunt III Vasa--a Polish name for a (mainly) Polish(-Lithuanian) king. Anatopism 07:55, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
• Zygmunt III Vasa - 1) should not be "of Poland" or "of Sweden" as per usage is Swedish, Lithuanian, and Polish wikipedias, which all use the surname "Vasa;" 2) first name should probably be spelled consistently with Polish spelling, as he had a Polish name. --Leifern 10:18, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
• Keep Zygmunt III Vasa--Molobo 11:30, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
• Sigismund III Vasa. Otherwise everybody will have to take Polish language courses before reading history in English Wikipedia :) Juraune 12:10, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Well, I assume there would be a redirect from Sigismund III, Sigismund III of Sweden, Sigismund III of Poland, etc., etc. --Leifern 13:04, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
    • Redirects won't do in every case, since when I see Elżbieta Rakuszanka in English text, I will never guess that she is Elisabeth of Austria actually, or Kazimierz Święty has no clue that he is Saint Casimir for someone who isn't Polish. Juraune 06:10, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

• Prefer Sigismund III of Poland, Sigismund III Vasa is also acceptable. john k 13:43, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
• As John Kenney; reasoning below. Septentrionalis 16:18, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
• Sigismund III Vasa. Use English. The vote is disrupted, though. --Ghirla ^-трёп- 16:52, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Comment: There has been an attempt to create a naming system specifically for Polish monarchs (but it is just a proposal and never received consensus), against the system used for other European monarchs. There is also the fact that most Polish monarchs now are located in places which contravene to general naming convention. There is no consensus for permission to use an exception for Polish monarchs, and such permission should be sought from consensus atWikipedia talk:Naming conventions (names and titles) where there is the thread Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (names and titles)#Need of particular exception/ convention for Polish monarchs. At that spot there are editors who are more or less experienced in overall picture of monarch naming and not only one country. It is deception to advertise any system for naming before a consensus there is convinced of the need for such exception. I hope all of you continue the naming scheme discussion for Polish monarchs there, before continuing or creating policy forks. Shilkanni 13:03, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

• Wow, comment, (Halibutt and Irpen not at each others throats, makes me happy), Halibutt and Irpen, are you nuts? By this logic, we should open up Pandora's Box again, and name Jogaila, Wladyslaw II Jagiello of Lithuania. Right? Dr. Dan 18:00, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
• Zygmunt III Vasa. Mattergy 06:04, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
• Sigismund III Vasa (although Sigismund III of Poland might well be preferable to either.) WP:UE. Robert A.West (Talk) 19:18, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] voting is not stopped

I moved the page back as the user who moved it[7] just 3 days ago didn't inquire of the community in the first place. It is the original move than should be voted for rather than we have to vote to return the article to the name it used for a long time which coinsides to all major EL encyclopedias. Proponetns of the move are welcome to propose the move to the Polish rather than anglicized name. --Irpen 03:43, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Excuse me? Could you cite some policy to explain this move? I see no difference between this voting and the case of Polski Słownik Biograficzny, which was moved without a consensus to Polish Biographical Dictionary and then went through a RM vote (which, btw, indicates it should be moved back to the Polish name). I find your action very much encroaching on WP:POINT, especially as you introduce a much worse name (replacing Vasa with much less useful 'of Poland'), invalidating the vote above, including the RM request. Once the RM request is placed on the page the page should not be moved by anybody unless the closing admin decides the consensus was to move.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 03:54, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

For my own part, I am willing to compromise and support the name of Sigismund III of Poland. --Elonka 04:10, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Piotrus, whoever wants to move the article has to justify the move in the first place. The article was moved 3 days ago[8] to a less known name by someone I've never met before. The article was under the original name for a while and I returned it there. Whoever wants to have it moved, has to propose the WP:RM and gain the consensus for a new name, not the other way around. I consider moves without asking (at least when the case is not clear) highly disrptive as imposing someone's view on the community. Please study my moves log and try to find the move there where I didn't ask (except for the obvious ones). If you do, I will issue my apology. --Irpen 04:14, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Irpen, perhaps you should look at the edit history more closely. The article was moved to from Sigismund III of Poland to Zygmunt III Vasa in responce to another move, as the edit summaries in the edit you cite clearly show. If you look at the edit history you will see that the article had a stable name as Zygmunt III Vasa for half a year, since 28 Dec'05. It was moved in accordance with majority support at WP:NC(PM). Of course, for some the fact that the majority support came from Polish users means that it is a plot by nationalist Poles to rename articles...--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 04:26, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Oh, I see what happened. Just before that someone else also moved the article and as such there is no a clearly original name here. I apologize. Move it as you please and start a vote like you want. I would simply vote for the anglisized name. Sorry, for disruption. --Irpen 04:20, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

I accept. I have asked at WP:RM for a neutral admin to move the article, I am afraid that if I were to move it it would be taken by some as the further "evidence" of my bad faith :( --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 04:26, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

As no dirty tricks were used, the article could be then moved back to revert my move and the vote conducted (redirects have no history). If we start from the Polish rather than anglicized name for the English Wikipedia, fine with me. I urge my colleagues, though, to give some credence and pity to the English speaking and Polish non-speaking users and pay respect to the majority of sources as well as other encyclopedias. But that's the matter of WP:RM discussion merit. Go ahead move it as you like. Sorry again for not noticing that the move I reverted was not the first one. --Irpen 04:27, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

OOC, is 'Sigismund' easier to say for an English speaker the 'Zygmunt'? Because according to my quick scan of Google Print, if we go with 'most popular' variant then we should go with 'Sigmund' (230k hits, were Zygmunt gets around 30k and Sigismund, 50k. On a lighter note, if we want to talk about original (early Wikipedia) names, the article was for a time at Sigismund I of Sweden...--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 04:32, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

No,this was not. There was for a time a younger fork of the same person, but this page always lived that entire time, and finally the fork was redirected to this. And this was at that time at S III of P. Marrtel 04:44, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

So? I didn't say it was exlusively there? I just think it is worth pointing out that if we go with 'of country', then 'of Sweden' should also be considered. As well as 'of Lithuania'. It should be interesting when we rename Władysław IV Waza to Ladislaus of Lithuania, Poland, Muscovy and Sweden. Do you think we should go all the way out and include Latvia or Estonia in his title too? Or would just Livonia be sufficient? One can make a good case for Ruthenia, too. I just can't wait... :> --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 04:54, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

I cannot understand on what basis he would be Vladislaus, Duke of Estonia or Vladislaus III of Latvia (did you make an intellectual error?). But, if we had not that pesky rule to keep article titles short, the guy could be under Vladislaus IV of Poland, Sweden, Gothenland and Vandalia, Grand Duke of Lithuania, Ruthenia, Prussia, Masovia, Samogitia, Livonia and Moscow (I would not recommend, though). Since he never truly got the realm of the tsars subjugated, he would not be Vladislaus of Russia except in some POV forks, because we do not endorse pretensions, we just report facts (We do not have Michael II of Russia, we have Grand Duke Michael Alexandrovich of Russia). Marrtel 18:47, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Anyone can move it anywhere now. No need to ask any admins. Redirects have no history. Cluttering WP:RM isn't necessary, IMO as it brings people with no clue of the issue. It is only needed when the name can't be decided by all buddies. --Irpen 04:29, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Originally, this was at Sigismund III of Poland, since the first write of this article on 20 May 2002. Only as recently as on 28 December 2005 Logologist moved Sigismund III of Poland to Zygmunt III Vasa. Then a slow move series ensued. None of these moves were voted. Perhaps we should start this being at Sigismund III of Poland. Marrtel 04:32, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

I already said on numerous occasions that, while I understand Logologist's idea that the names of Polish monarchs could be used in Polish, I prefer to use English. Sigismund III of Poland is a fine solution to me, no need to change it. //Halibutt 06:24, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Really, what happened. --Irpen 06:56, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Nothing changed, I always supported this version. //Halibutt 06:22, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

People should probably consider the example of James I of England, which has been stable at that name for some time (with one suppressed move war). The better-known title gets the article name, but the lesser-known title gets precedence in the bold opening to the article. This is compromise, which is a good thing.

Which way that applies here is open to discussion, but Sigismund III of Poland is probably right. I have no objection to Sigismund III Vasa, but doubt it will be consensus (James I Stuart, the analogy, has a fatal flaw: no one uses it, because it is ambiguous.); I do strongly object to the use of the non-English Zygmunt in the article title. In using the English name, we are following the example of pl:Jerzy III Hanowerski which is where the Polish WP, properly, lists George III. Septentrionalis 16:15, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

While no Polish source will use 'George III of Hanover' or 'George III of England', there are (as shown above) respected English sources which use 'Zygmunt III August'.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 16:27, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

I have no doubt they exist. Are you willing to claim that they are consensus, or even majority, usage in English? Septentrionalis 16:43, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Voting

The voting process has been disrupted. The vote as it is involves people voting on different issues, because the subject of the vote has been changed half-way through. The vote will have to be restarted, because no result produced in the current vote can be acceptable. - Calgacus (ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ) 15:40, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

The appearance of new alternatives in discussion is one of the things that are supposed to happen; it's part of the meaning of the "This is not a vote" mantra. It may be worth setting out an approval vote, to see who can tolerate which alternatives; but not restarting things. Septentrionalis 16:15, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

I don't understand. The was listed as one vote, then changed to the next. Now some votes for Sigismund III Vasa look like they are opposed to Sigismund III of Poland, when they are not. - Calgacus (ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ) 16:21, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Oh no, do not make the vote yet more difficult. While it is true that a new alternative really disrupts a vote, we should not let it disturb this yet more. The poll above is going nicely anyway, as the interpretation is: That vote is strictly between "Zygmunt III Vasa" and "Sigismund III Vasa". So, the loser of that vote CANNOT be made the new name. The situation between the winner and "Sigismund III of Poland" should be checked from comments, before this is moved away from "Sigismund III of Poland" - and if comments do not offer enough about that, a new poll should THEN be aranged, between the winner and S III of P.

MY interpretation of the present division of votes is that Zygmunt is losing, so this cannot be moved to that location. The comments show much support to S III of P, and there is not supermajority for S III V, whereby this is going to remain at S III of P. Marrtel 16:53, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

I disagree with your interpreation. If the article is moved anywhere it should go to S III V, which seems to be the variant preffered by the majority. Still, the vote is young and we should give it several more days before we will chose the dominant proposition and go to RM.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 16:01, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Approvals

Please indicate all you find tolerable, with possible one-sentence commentary; feel free to add choices. Silence implies disapproval (although new alternatives should be dated). Votes above should still be counted.

• Sigismund III of Poland
  • Probably slightly preferable to Sigismund III Vasa; he's only Sigismund III in Poland. Septentrionalis 16:43, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Irpen 16:52, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Ghirla ^-трёп- 16:53, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Marrtel 16:59, 6 June 2006 (UTC) . This is the best alternative.
  • Calgacus (ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ) 18:36, 6 June 2006 (UTC). I'd prefer this ideally. But it depends on the fate of Polish monarchs generally. If they aren't gonna take the "of Poland" format, then I'd go for Sigismund III Vasa
  • //Halibutt 20:00, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
    • Second choice abakharev 04:22, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Juraune 05:58, 7 June 2006 (UTC) Seems to be logical choice, he was Third Sigismund of Poland
  • Känsterle 11:22, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
  • First choice. john k 12:13, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Srnec 04:55, 8 June 2006 (UTC) As Calgacus said.
  • First choice. No reason not to be consistent here. Robert A.West (Talk) 19:22, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

• Sigismund III Vasa
  • Septentrionalis 16:43, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Irpen 16:52, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Ghirla ^-трёп- 16:53, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Olessi 17:17, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Dr. Dan 18:15, 6 June 2006 (UTC) Makes the most sense in English Wiki; we don't have Petr Veliky or Henri IV. Add the Polish: Zygmunt III Waza, afterwards right in the lead of the article.
  • M.K. 18:51, 6 June 2006 (UTC) if format "of Poland" will remain in name above, I vote for this.
  • Second choice. Leifern 20:19, 6 June 2006 (UTC), otherwise Zygmunt III Vasa. Sigismund III of Poland is absolutely unacceptable - he was king also of Sweden, after all.
  • Elonka 20:25, 6 June 2006 (UTC) "Sigismund III Vasa" is how the name appears in Encyclopedia Brittanica.
  • Str1977 ^{(smile back)} 20:58, 6 June 2006 (UTC) since he ruled two kingdoms, it is better to use his family name.
  • Second choice, this or Zygmunt III Waza.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 22:19, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
  • First choice abakharev 04:22, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Juraune 05:58, 7 June 2006 (UTC) good for identifying, more personal
  • Second choice Känsterle 11:22, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Second choice. john k 12:13, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Cyon 15:27, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Second choice. UE. Robert A.West (Talk) 19:22, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Angus McLellan (Talk) 11:38, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

• Zygmunt III Vasa.
  • oppose (please discount if disaproval votes aren't allowed). -Irpen 16:52, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
  • First choice.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 22:19, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
  • First choice. KonradWallenrod 04:02, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
  • First choice. Anatopism 04:42, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Second choice. Mattergy 06:04, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
• Zygmunt III Waza
  • My second option. If we don't use English names defined by the convention (Sigismund/Zygmunt III of Poland), then why not use the local name? //Halibutt 20:00, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Second choice, this or Sigismund III of Poland.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 22:19, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Second choice. KonradWallenrod 04:02, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Second choice. Anatopism 04:42, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
  • First choice Leifern 17:58, 7 June 2006 (UTC) - my general preference is to use local names, with appropriate redirects.
  • First choice. Mattergy 06:04, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] discussion

I have expressed my opinion on the merits above. Now, the questions are, what are the results, and what do we do?

Unless there is some change soon, the results seem to be tending to:

• Sigismund is more popular than Zygmunt
• Between the two choices for Sigismund, Sigismund III Vasa has more but weaker voices than Sigismund III of Poland. (The same holds for Zygmunt III Waza against Zygmunt III Vasa, btw).

I would prefer to do this by as large a consensus as possible. If the Zygmundists were compelled to pick between the choices for Sigismund, which would it be? If I read correctly, Piotrus seems to be able to tolerate either. Septentrionalis 19:27, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

I am not sure what is meant by 'weaker voices'. If we go with Sigismund, I would strongly oppose (in terms of voting) the 'of Poland', as it would completly dirsupt the entire Polisn monarch naming scheme (it would be the single monarch with 'of country'). As for Vasa vs Waza I supported the Vasa from begining under my rule that 'nicknames should be in English because they can be very helpful to readers'.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 19:38, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Several editors, including myself, have Sigismund III Vasa as second choice to Sigismund III of Poland; a second choice is weaker than a first choice. There are other reasons, which seem obvious to me, to discount other voices for it. Thank you for clarifying your comment under Waza. Septentrionalis 19:52, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Sure. Note also that most of the 'Zygmuntists', if they had to abandon Zygmunt, would likely still prefer 'Vasa' over 'of Poland'. For that reason I believe that 'Vasa' is the stronger choice.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 05:18, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Name as it appears in encyclopedias and dictionaries

The Wikipedia policy on naming says that articles should receive "the most commonly used English version of the name for the article, as you would find it in other encyclopedias and reference works." For reference, here is a list of how this individual's name is listed in major English-language works. If you have access to an English-language encyclopedia or dictionary that is not listed here, please feel free to add another datapoint to this list. Thanks! --Elonka 21:47, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Monarch of Country (as "preemptive disambiguation") is established Wikipedia practice, as the first rule under Wikipedia:Naming conventions (names and titles) says. I think there should be more exceptions than there are, but a general rejection of this should have been argued there, not here. Most encyclopedias do not follow that rule, because -existing primarily in print- they have less absolute need for disambiguation than we do. They can stand three successive articles on Sigismund III or Henry I, without trouble. Septentrionalis 20:07, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Encyclopedias

• Sigismund III Vasa (Webster's Desk Encyclopedia)
• Sigismund III Vasa (1979 Brittanica)
• Sigismund III Vasa (Online Brittanica) [9]
• Sigismund III (online Columbia) [10]

[edit] Dictionaries

• Zygmunt III (Sokol's Polish Biographical Dictionary)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.