Talk:Sifu

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

	This article is part of WikiProject China, a project to improve all China-related articles. If you would like to help improve this and other China-related articles, please join the project. All interested editors are welcome.
Start	This article has been rated as Start-Class on the quality scale. (see comments)
More information about this article... ??? This article has not yet received a rating on the importance scale.

Contents 1 Disciple Ceremonies 2 Becoming a Master 3 Mandarin vs. Cantonese 4 Other related terms 5 English 6 Slang 7 Redundancy

[edit] Disciple Ceremonies

I am doing research on kungfu disciple ceremonies, but have not found any pages describing the traditional ceremony, the steps, and the purpose/meaning behind each one. If anyone can direct me to a website that can provide a detailed description of the ceremony, I'd greatly appreciate it. If they are really keen, they can transcribe it over to Wikipedia :) JJJ 20:41, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Becoming a Master

Hi everyone, how do I go about requesting a page to be written? I am looking for some insights on a concrete definition of a 'kungfu master', and how does one become a master. Has anyone come across such documents or can write about it? My curiousity arises from the frustration that anyone these days claim to be a 'master', but I believe only a fraction of those deserve to have that title. What are the qualifications and is there a governing body that certifies masters? JJJ 20:37, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Mandarin vs. Cantonese

I removed the following:

Google returns 18 thousand hits for the Mandarin spelling of shifu, but returns 124 thousand hits for the Cantonese spelling of sifu.

This information belongs here, on the talk page. ✏ Sverdrup 18:12, 5 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I was just trying to imply sifu is overwhelming more common than shifu at least on the Internet. Kowloonese 18:21, 5 Oct 2004 (UTC)

And thats simply because the English google has always favoured places who use the language more often, if that was not obvious by now. At least 1.25 million people on earth know what "shifu" is. How many would know what is Sifu? I would propose switching all these martial arts terms to their Mandarin equivalents.--Huaiwei 10:50, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

There are probably much much more Chinese-speaking people identifying 點心 as Dian Xin rather than Dim Sum.. :-) — Instantnood 17:32, Jun 23, 2005 (UTC)

That its true. Perhaps we should rename that one as well, wont you agree? ;)--Huaiwei 29 June 2005 05:09 (UTC)

Be bold then. ;-) — Instantnood June 29, 2005 07:35 (UTC)

Haha. I love your sense of humour. --Huaiwei 29 June 2005 07:46 (UTC)

Well, I'd say Shifu is less popular in the English world, and that's no doubt. -- Jerry Crimson Mann 29 June 2005 11:54 (UTC)

It depends on what you want to do here. If this is a translation of a Chinese encyclopedia, then the spelling and contents should be based on how Chinese people write English in China. However, if this is an English encyclopedia, then the contents and spellings should be based on how people in the English speaking world use the term outside of China. The word "Sifu" is used widely in Chinatown, not "shifu"! How the word 師父 is used or pronounced in China is relevant ONLY in China, not in the US or in Britain or other English speaking worlds. The argument about Dim Sum is an good example. Dim Sum has already become a English word, it has its unique meaning and usage in English speaking countries. The word Dim Sum was derived from 點心, but it is no longer the same word. In the US, Dim Sum means Hong Kong Style 點心, not necessarily the wider definition of "dian xin". Trying to write about "Dian Xin" in an article titled Dim Sum is inappropriate at least in this edition of wikipedia. I grew up in Hong Kong and I am a Chinese American. My Chinese side understands what is in your mind, but my American side disagrees with what you try to do here. Perhaps no one can blame you when you have no idea which word is an English word derived from Chinese verses which word is just a transliteration of a Chinese word. The former has become part of English language with its own etymology and history and may or may not mean exactly the same thing as its origin. I propose that this article should be about what "Sifu" means in English speaking countries, not what 師父 or shifu means in China. Kowloonese June 30, 2005 00:32 (UTC)

I want to point out that the majority of Chinese immigrants in English speaking worlds were from Southern China. Mandarin speaking Chinese immigrants did not come out until China opens its emmigration doors in the late 1970s or 1980s. Since Hong Kong was a British colony, Hong Kong emmigrants had very strong Cantonese influence in the English usage on Chinese terminologies especially in all the British commonwealth countries such as Canada, Australia etc. The fact that there are more Mandarin speaking people in the world does not change the Cantonese influence that has already become part of the English language. It is not about which has more, it is about what got in first!!! Kowloonese June 30, 2005 00:49 (UTC)

           1/18/08 (dont really know how to add to this page so im just editing this post...hope thats ok)

shifu, to the best of my knowledge most correlates to the word "master" in English not "teacher"; it is important to differentiate between the two. English word wise, all "teachers" teach, yet not all masters do. While you can call all teachers a master it would be incorrect to assume that all carpenters teach. There is not a duel relationship. Also I believe shifu has been used in china the same way "comrade" was by the USSR. **Remember when a word gets translated the translator cannot but impose their own beliefs gathered from their experience of the world. A translator that has only experienced the word "shifu" in relation to martial arts where masters of martial arts often do teach, can foreseeably come to the conclusion that it has the same literal meaning as that of the English word "teacher". A martial arts master is simply a master who teaches, hence the confusion.**

 -jake

[edit] Other related terms

Are there terms for younger sister or older sister? In Korean wuxia or Korean translations of wuxia, the words samae and sajeo are sometimes used. Kjoonlee 06:25, 2004 Dec 6 (UTC)

Yes there are. — Instantnood June 29, 2005 07:35 (UTC)

Well, what are they?

Sijia and simui for older and younger sister, respectively. Siku for an aunt. Siku nai nai for an aunt a further generation up. Simo is the sifu's wife. Sichut is anyone a generation lower than oneself. --Fire Star 00:20, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] English

Just curious, was the language in this article always this awkward? I fixed some of it, I wonder why it wasn't fixed earlier. -- Natalinasmpf 17:26, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I wrote the bulk of the original article in awkward English because English is not my native language. I am glad that you copyedited out all the awkward parts. That is the beauty of wikipedia, I provided the contents and you rewrote it in better form. Thanks for the collaboration. Kowloonese June 30, 2005 00:57 (UTC)

[edit] Slang

I suppose it's the the same characters for that meaning. It's 師傅... :-) — Instantnood 18:06, Jun 23, 2005 (UTC)

Actually are 師父 and 師傅 different? For Kung Fu or other martial arts it's always the former. For the slang usage it's usually the latter. — Instantnood 18:41, Jun 23, 2005 (UTC)

I see both 師傅 and 師父 are referring to "master (worker)" in my dictionary. Additionally, the word one would also refer to a monk or nun. -- Jerry Crimson Mann 18:49, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC).

Are 師父 and 師傅 having the same meaning? They usually serve different meanings don't they? — Instantnood June 29, 2005 07:35 (UTC)

According to Wiktionary 傅 and 父 do not have the same meaning. 傅 does not mean father. — Instantnood June 29, 2005 15:16 (UTC)

Well, Chinese characters cannot be examined individually in this case. In fact, 師父 is the corruption of 師傅, probably influenced by the word Simo (Sifu's wife). The latter one should be more appropriate in a sense. -- Jerry Crimson Mann 05:43, June 30, 2005 (UTC)

Logical.. but in current usage the two are serving different meanings, aren't they? Nobody would call a taxi driver 師父.. or no 徒弟 would call her/his kung fu master 師傳. — Instantnood June 30, 2005 09:12 (UTC)

I agree. Half of the broader sense of 師傅 is actually off topic here. The other half which means the same as 師父 is okay. Actually 傅 means teacher.

如《禮記．文王世子》所載：立太傅、少傅以養之，欲其知父子君臣之道也。太傅審父子之道以示之，少傅奉世子以觀太傅之德行，而審喻之。太傅在前，少傅在後，入則有保，出則有師，是以教喻而德成也。師也者，教之以事而喻諸德者也；保也者，慎其身以輔翼之，而歸諸道者也.

According ancient literature, 師 and 傅 were different rank of officials in charge of educating the crown prince in some Chinese dynasty. Modern usage of 師傅 more are for the "skilled master" sense than the "teacher" sense. On the other hand, 師父 is only used in the teacher sense. Kowloonese June 30, 2005 20:21 (UTC)

What I recognised is like in contemporary usage the meanings of 師父 and 師傅 only overlap partially. — Instantnood July 6, 2005 08:22 (UTC)

I am a native Chinese and quite new here. But here's what I know about these two phrases in morden Mandarin: you never call you teacher in school 师父 or 师傅, but simply 老师. Even in pre-PRC times, as far as my literature readings show, one would not call his teacher in school 师父 or 师傅; they would use again 老师 or a more contemporarily popular 先生. What i came across in ancient writen Chinese is that they addressed their teacher of education as mainly 师. I think I'm making things complicated. My apology and I will put it as follows: 1. 师父 refers to those who teaches you other things than literary education. He may be a craftsman, a monk (like how Monkey King addresses Xuanzang), or a man from any walks of life. 2. 师傅 may not necessarily refers to a teacher. In fact, many Chinese like me distinguish 师父 and 师傅 quite sharply. I would only use 师傅 when I address some craftsmen or drivers who possess a certain kind of skill and live on it. 3.I am almost 100% sure your teacher in school would get annoyed if you wrote a letter, addressing him/her 师父 or 师傅, though the former can be comparatively less annoying. There's a strong tradition among Chinese intellectuals that they be distinguished from those who labour to live. Not a good one though. Chrisliu (talk) 18:57, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for pointing this out. Please feel free to amend the article to reflect the specifics of northern usage. If you know of a good Mandarin dictionary or grammar that mentions this, listing it (or them) as a reference would be very helpful. --Bradeos Graphon Βραδέως Γράφων (talk) 18:23, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Redundancy

Gweipo, Gweimui and Gweijai are all included in the Gweilo artcle. I don't think it's necessary to open new articles for Sigung, Sibak, Sisok, Sihing and Sidai — it's just superfluous. -- Jerry Crimson Mann 30 June 2005 05:43 (UTC)

You are suggesting that they be merged into one page?--Huaiwei 30 June 2005 08:53 (UTC)

Very likely... =.= -- Jerry Crimson Mann 1 July 2005 14:13 (UTC)

I created these separate pages expecting someone will fill in more contents to make each worth its own article. I feel that these martial arts school relationships can have much more meaningful contents than just Gweilo, Gweipo, Gweimui and Gweijai. Your examples are just variations of the same name given to foreign according to their gender, age etc. However, Sifu, Sigong etc. can be very complex and when you merge them all into one article, it may be very easy to mix up. For example, Sibak and sisok ("school uncles") are genderless, e.g. "school sisters" of your "school father" are called "school uncles", not "school aunts". However, Sihing and Sidai (school brothers) is named different from Simoi (school sisters). I have no objection if you can merge them neatly without mixing up the family structure. Kowloonese July 1, 2005 22:22 (UTC)