Talk:Siege of Port Arthur

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[edit] Does this belong in this Article?

I (re) wrote the ending of this page, esp. because the Russians in the person of the Tzar were decidedly reluctant to approach the peace table, and the previous ending, stating they had sued for peace thus gives an erroneous impression. (Blame Edmund Morris, not me!)

The following should obviously be included in the Russo-Japanese War ending, but it's late, I'm not sure either way, so I'm saving it here for comment (while it's in the cut buffer). Does it belong here as well? It needs some polish, but makes sense (I hope <g>):

The capture of Port Arthur, and the Japanese naval victory in the Battle of Tsushima five months later, did not convince the war-weary Russian government (Tzar Nickolaus II) to sue for peace but only a diplomatic tour de force by US President Theodore Roosevelt initiated after a secret request by the war weary Japanese government got the Russians to the Peace Table. The United States mediated and under the terms of the Treaty of Portsmouth, New Hampshire in September 1905, the Russo-Japanese War came to an end which established Japan as the dominant power in Asia. President Roosevelt was awarded the Noble Prize for Peace for his offices as intermediary and mediator. In the face of Russian willingness to continue the conflict, Roosevelt got the Japanese to concede terms unwillingly (esp. reparations), and these generated riots in Japan as they were percieved as a loss of face, and these same perceptions (i.e. That America and other western powers had treated Japan as the 'defeated party' of the Russo-Japanese war) subsequently became part of the Japanese rationale for the infamous sneak attack on Pearl Harbor, as they explicitly stated in the famously 'late delivered' comunication declaring war -- after the sneak attack began.

[edit] References

Thanks Fabartus 07:05, 31 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Comments

The first thing I would worry about is finding a second source. I assume Theodore Rex is a biography of Rooselvelt not a history of the Russo-Japanese war, so Morris is going to approach the subject from a Rooselvelt-a-centric view. What does a history of the war say on the subject? I guess the second question is how much of the discussion is needed here. For example, the fact that President Roosevelt was awarded the Noble Prize, and the long term effect on Japan and the start of WWII may not be needed here. Having said that, if the version above is more accurate than what was there before (and at least it has a citation) the change is a good idea. Andreww 09:26, 31 May 2005 (UTC)

not quite an rebuttal It's been my experience (after a lifetime of reading history) that you get a far greater detail and feel for the actual decision factors in history from the painstaking detailed research a biographer performs than you do from a contemporary writer of history, composing so soon after the fact that not all information is available, or declassified. Mr. Morris won the Pultzer Prize for his first book on TR, and the second's research (nearly 25 years later) is to the same high standard. Having access to now declassified source materials s.a. Brittish Diplomatic records documenting TR's requests through the Brittish (diplomatic back channels) give his account information that no other historical writer has yet had a crack at, or compiled together. The Brits generally classify things for a minimum of 75 years. In the main, however, there is little disagreement as the treaty of Portsmouth is a well documented fact; what's significantly 'new' is that TR was looking to mediate early on, that he put out feelers to both sides, the give and take, and especially the view from the back room that is available only after the principles have died. Of their 'reads' of the diplomatic activity and of the opposing diplomats themselves... Morris spent two chapters building the case for the synopsis I presented here. I have no pretensions that it is perfect in any way, save one - Nicholas II was reluctant as hell to come to the peace table and his intransingence in part resulted eventually in our entry into WW-II.

As to other sources, I'll have no less than seven books ordered in by the weekend, not counting the half dozen encyclopedias and four general histories of Japan and Russia I surveyed this evening on the Russo-Japanese war. These verify hard facts, but are too abbreviated and too general to address the diplomatic backchannels. A biography isn't, even the one's I've read where the biographer was clearly no friend of his subject. I will add a bio of Nicholas II to my list, as you've just made me curious, but Morris's case is iron clad and explains more 'better' than contemporary explainations ever did.

wrt -"I guess the second question is how much of the discussion is needed here." That's the answer as to why I put it here first. Unfortunately, I answered the question for myself overnight as I added a similar but more expanded version to the Battle of Port Arthur article this (well, yesterday) afternoon... which is how I got to the library. The answer I came up with is that connections like this are the exciting secrets of history that are a delight to discover. Is the link to the attack on Pearl Harbor significant in studying these old battles in their own day? Not! Is it of intermediary historical importance -- certainly, ask anyone that died at Pearl Harbor! Is Pearl important to our place in history today? Sitting out WW-II would mean we live in an alternate universe, so the answer must be yes. History is a concantative assembledge wherein individual events interact and interrelate in complex and marvelous ways, are sometimes tragic, frequently taudry, or contemptable (Morris's discussion of Kaiser Wilhelm's machinations makes me grin when using that word!), or underhanded, or noble, but always in contrast to, and along side of other significant events. The great thing to me about wikipedia is that is not shackled by the economic restrictions of a printed work. It can be thourough and complete without significant adverse costs. In a decade, it will be an authoratative source of general knowledge, and by providing such glimpses of the magic interconnections inherent to history we can stimulate thousands -- and brighten their day doing it. Thus, a good section covering the historical implications of such matters are an ideal we should strive for across the board. Something should be put there to satisfy that goal, and my piece is a good start on that at least. Tonight I learned that Japan had also taken over the Russian's Lease of Terratories in Manchuria as part of the settlement. That and a few other things need added in a judicious manner Fabartus 06:55, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

"The Tide at Sunrise" is a lengthy (628 pages) history of the Russo-Japanese War. It is expensive ($125.00 at Amazon) but you can still find it in libraries.

[edit] Well No More Comments

  • Since the above didn't generate any futher discussion, I'm posting in the Arty. User:Fabartus || Talkto_FrankB 30 June 2005 19:52 (UTC)

[edit] Copyvio? (August 2006)

After the major rewrite in August 2006 much of the article seems to be copied from battlefieldanomalies.com. I have blanked the latest version and restored the version from 25 July 2006. -- Petri Krohn 23:48, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Will work on a rewrite and submit in 2-3 days. However, arbitrarily blanking of an article without any prior discussion was a pretty abrupt step.220.104.154.59
I have restored the content based on last non-copyrighted version. -- Petri Krohn 12:26, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Mine Warfare

While the article seems to be dealing mostly with land operations, it does go into naval business when applicable. I think it would be well along the lines if we include a section dealing with sinking of japanese battleships "Hatsuse" and "Yashima" near Port-Arthur - especially considering that they were the only japanese battleships sunk by the russians in that war. With respect, Ko Soi IX 14:16, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Poison gas

I removed sentences concerning poison gas. I checked some evaluated books about Siege of Port Arthur or Japanese chemical warfare, but can't find any mentions. Please put back the sentences with appropriate sources.--Amagase 09:45, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Weight of the shells thrown by the 11-inch howitzers

I noticed some minor inconsistencies in the article shown by these three quotations:

"11-inch howitzers with 500-kilogram armor-piercing shells"

"the arrival of the first battery of huge Krupp 11-inch siege howitzers, replacing those lost on the Hitachi-Maru disaster. The massive Krupp howitzers could throw a 227 kilogram shell over 9 kilometers"

"Over 1000 of the 500-lb shells from the 11-inch Krupp howitzers were fired in a single day to support this attack."

I know nothing about artillery, but I'm betting someone who is reading this does! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wilson44691 (talk • contribs) 01:17, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

There are some inaccurate descriptions in the sentences. These howitzers were not German-made, but Italian and its copies made in Japan. There were no howitzers lost in the sinking of Hitachi-maru. I can't find any appropriate sources about the weight by now. --Amagase (talk) 09:42, 2 January 2008 (UTC)