Talk:Sie and hir
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This article was nominated for deletion on January 19, 2006. The result of the discussion was keep. An archived record of this discussion can be found here. |
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This article was nominated for deletion on 20 November 2006. The result of the discussion was Redirect to Gender-neutral pronoun. |
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[edit] Removed
"sie and hir are ugly and cumbersome." Says who? Gone. --cuiusquemodi 19:02, 11 Sep 2004 (UTC)
- I think it might be worth mentioning that many do hold that opinion about this and other sets of artificial pronouns, although obviously not in the voice of Wikipedia. —Casey J. Morris
Hey, can I note that "sie" is ridiculously not gender neutral? It is the German word for "she" (and also "they" and formal "you", but as a singular it distinctly means "she".) Who on earth came up with the idea that a foreign language word for "she" would be a good gender neutral pronoun? And "hir" only works in writing, what with it sounding exactly like "her" in speech... sigh... john k 02:16, 12 Sep 2004 (UTC)
- The point being precisely that sie might be related to the german word only accidentally, being a fusion of she and he. Hence both possible origins being presented, and as for hir, as I personally think of it, and apparently a sizable portion of people as well, is to be pronounced as heer, basically. So, less with the oh so superior sighing and more with understanding the whole deal...? Just a thought. Zeppocity 21:19, 11 September 2005 (UTC)
i think it is interesting/slighly problematic that there is very little about these pronouns as a source of positive personal identity. It all seems to be about approaching these pronouns from a general use or literary perspective. I feel like there should be a bit about people who claim these pronouns for themselves and prefer friends and peers to use them not necessarily in their whole life, but certainly in relation to that person. Unfortunately, i am not sure how to put this in...--Mattybird 21:46, 22 July 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Also Removed
"Supporters of "sie" and "hir" do not accept these criticisms, or feel they do not outweigh the advantages of these words."
This is conjecture. Every single supporter in the whole universe? I think not. How many did you ask? Some guys you know? A guy who lives down the street from you? or did you just make it up?..
9:24 AM UTC Monday, August 08, 2005.
- If they didn't feel the criticisms were outweighed by the benefits, presumably they wouldn't be a supporter, right? — ceejayoz talk
17:12, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
- hahaha point Ceejayoz. I agree with hir complete ;)Oreo man 20:13, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
[edit] LOL
Anyone think that "sie" is she in german and "hir" looks almost exactly like her. I found Ve funny too for the "Ve washes verself" looks overly feminine. Why can't people just use "He" when they don't know the gender? Chooserr 06:21, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
- Because it puts male before female, and as such is violently heteronormative and sexist in linguistic terms, and potentially very simply incorrect and even offensive...? Zeppocity 06:25, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
I support the use of gender neutral pronouns because gender does not equal sex. And some people dont want to be confined to a binary gender system, including me! cunstar , April 2006 (UTC)
[edit] My goodness
I'd like to note that there is, essentially, no sourcing whatsoever to this entire article. What evidence is there that "sie" and "hir" are commonly enough used to warrant an encyclopedia article? john k 07:49, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
- I think this article and Spivak pronoun are junk. I'm going to put up a vfd flag and see what the consensus is. Garglebutt / (talk) 07:39, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
Sadly, I see that the consensus was to keep. That being so, it would behoove advocates of this article to actually provide some sourcing. john k 05:43, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
Well, for what it's worth, a lot of people use "sie" (or "shi") and "hir" not as gender neutral, but to mean a hermaphrodite.. used in fictional/imaginary settings. To be frank, I've seen it in the furry community a lot. http://www.google.com/search?&hl=en&lr=&rls=en&q=hir+-wikipedia+hermaphrodite&btnG=Search for example. (Googling the phrase: hir -wikipedia hermaphrodite) Plenty of hits where one can see by just Google's summary text, people using it to refer to hermaphroditic characters. --AshyRaccoon 01:24, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Singular they
User:Uncle G has twice reverted my addition of singular they to the table comparing sie and hir usage with gender and gender neutral grammar. I believe it is appropriate to compare these uncommon words with conventional grammar. The singular they articles makes no comparisons while Spivak includes singular they but is missing neuter so all of these related articles are inconsistent. I detest getting involved in revert battles so I'll post my disagreement here. Garglebutt / (talk) 12:42, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
- The analogous articles are Xe (pronoun) and Ve (pronoun), neither of which mention singular they. Nor should they. As already explained twice, singular they has its own article and the tables in these articles are to show how these pronouns (which in use replace singular they) fit in with the sexed pronouns. The place for the side-by-side comparison table is gender-neutral pronoun (where, indeed, it can already be found). Uncle G 12:51, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
[edit] context for usenet quote
is there any evidence that the usage of "hir" in the usenet quote is intentional? imho, as it stands, it looks like a one-letter typo ("his" or "her" versus "hir"). thanks. Lunch 18:37, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
[edit] shi
Shi is sometimes seen as an alternative to sie, especially among the furry fandom. It is pronounced like shay.
How on Earth can 'shi' and 'shay' be at all similar in their vowel sounds ... ? IPA PLEASE!
