Talk:Sideshow Bob

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Contents

[edit] Auditor

Hehee ... he's an Auditor for Snohomish County, WA [1] =) 142.177.123.204 22:07, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Xeom?

Which episode is he called 'Xeom'? I don't remember anything like that, and can't find any good references from a google search :S 192.43.227.18 02:33, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Evil genius

He is similar to Lex Luthor. They are both evil geniuses, they can rise and fall repeatedley (creating reputations after another was tarnished), their aim is to kill Superman/Bart Simpson, but not always. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jw21 (talk • contribs) 02:11, 15 July 2006

[edit] Sideshow Bob's Middle Name

Does anyone besides myself think that Sideshow Bob's full name is really "Robert Onderdonk Terwilliger"?

I know it's an uphill battle here. Everyone, including the biggest fansite (snpp.com) and the series companion book (The Simpsons: A Complete Guide) list the name as "Underdunk". But consider the following:

1. "Onderdonk" is, like "Terwilliger", an uncommon but real surname in the United States.

2. The name, like "Terwilliger", has snooty upper-class associations.

3. The name is of Dutch origin, and there were (and probably still are) may wealthy Onderdonks in the Hudson Valley area of New York State. An area from which a well-heeled and well-connected family might send their children to nearby Yale or Princeton...

4. The first (and, to my knowledge, only) time his middle name was spoken aloud was by Mayor Quimby in the episode "Sideshow Bob Roberts". With Quimby's (Castellaneta's) thick "Boston Brahmin" accent, the vowels in "Onderdonk" could easily be mistaken for those in "Underdunk".

Does anyone agree? Am I crazy? Do I have far too much time on my hands? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jimcat (talk • contribs) 20:36, 14 October 2005

I do agree and you are correct. I am going to tell you why. Sideshow Bob is named after Onderdonk, more specifically my father, Dr. Andrew Onderdonk. The story as we have heard it from Conan O'Brien's father (Conan worked on the Simpsons), who worked with my father at Brigham and Women's hospital in Boston, is that Conan was looking at a Harvard directory (he went there and my father is a professor at the medical school) and saw the name and thought it was really cool - said something to his Dad. So he put it in the show. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.245.238.14 (talk • contribs) 01:37, 11 November 2005
I'm going to have to vote for "too much time on your hands." Either way, if the above story is correct you will need to have something more than "I heard a story that my dad heard from conan's dad heard from conan." sigh, maybe I have too much time on my hands, also :) Oreo man 14:19, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
Its definatly Robert Underdunk Terwilliger. Im sure about that! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.163.154.234 (talk • contribs) 19:47, 31 December 2006

[edit] Simon & Garfunkel

Another question: In one episode Bob is rambling about how much he likes the music of Simon & Garfunkel. Does anyone have details? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.178.153.167 (talk • contribs) 16:12, 17 July 2006

[edit] Desperate Housewives

It states in the article that "Bob had an appearance on Desperate Housewives as Gabby's love interest in 2005". Eeerm....what? Verify or remove this. 86.128.40.201 02:02, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Too Long?

Isn't it a little strange when the article for Side Show Bob is twice as long as Kelsey Grammer? Delmet 03:26, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

Patrick Stewart played Shakespearean characters for the Royal Shakespeare Company, and several of his characters are greater than the Stewart article, as well as being accused by bardolaters of being the method by which Shakespeare "created the modern human" (way we think of ourselves). Robert Terwilliger is simply that great. *grins* --Chr.K. 02:29, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Die Bart Die

Isn't "die" German for "the" anyway? Even if it is slightly grammatically inaccurate, why even bother including a rubbish thing like that? —Preceding unsigned comment added by GuidedByPavement (talk • contribs) 20:52, 16 March 2007

Feminine-the. Der, as another notable psychopath made famous, is the masculine form. --Chr.K. 02:33, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] On the Trivia section...

Isn't "Choices" a segment of Bob's kids show (renamed Cavalcade of Whimsey after Krusty was jailed), furnished with European modernist furniture (Mies or Breuer, I forget), in which Bob talks with kids á la Dr. Phil? He happens to call Bart to the stage for a chat, only to have Bart reveal his theory (correct, of course) that Bob framed Krsuty. In the Cheers reference, most of the series cast is shown in cartoon form, and as I recall most of them speak, voiced by the actual actors -- with the unusual exception of the Fraser Crane character, who is silent.PurpleChez 14:10, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Trivia?

I dont know if this counts as trivia,but should we put in that sideshow bob was reference in gintama episode 1? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 151.200.7.70 (talk) 05:30, 10 April 2007 (UTC).

Or the fact that he has a running gag with rakes along with his son. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.197.168.169 (talk • contribs) 02:25, 8 May 2007

[edit] Kelsey Grammar Record Beaten

I was thinking that Dan Castelneta, voice of Homer Simpson, recently beat Kelsey Grammar's record for portraying a character on TV for 20 years (Frasier Crane). What about Sideshow Bob, Grammar has been playing him since 1990 and will play him again next season 2008. That's eighteen years playing sideshow bob, is that good trivia? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Mattawa (talk • contribs) 14:05, 25 April 2007 (UTC).

[edit] pre-Krust Gets Busted

Was Sideshow Bob ever shown on Krusty segments prior to his first big appearance? --NEMT 23:45, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

yes in the telltale head —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.154.251.150 (talk) 16:44, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Restored full article.

I came to check the "Sideshow Bob" episodes section and saw that the article had been shrunk to only the biography. This is nuts. I had read the article a week before with fascination and delight. (I adore Sideshow Bob.) Cleaning up is one thing but deleting almost all of the article is another. I restored it. Eje211 23:50, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

It was removed because 90% of the section was already mentioned in the biography section. Take a look at Troy McClure and Homer Simpson and then this page and see if you can notice the difference. -- Scorpion0422 01:07, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
I'll at least put back the list of episodes that "star" Sideshow Bob. This is useful, no matter what. Eje211 02:08, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
No, it was previously decided that such lists are unencyclopedic. -- Scorpion0422 02:23, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
That is said of trivia sections. Listing the nine episodes where Sideshow Bob appears and making them stand out (which is what I did) is hardly limited to "fan sites". It is meant as being part of a reference to the character, which is what Wikipedia is. Once more, I originally came to this page originally looking up which episodes the character appears in. Now, all that's left is a "biography" for the character. Sideshow Bob's life was made up episode after episode: it's clear, for example, that before his brother was mentioned, such a brother had never been thought of.
Listing the nine episodes makes much more sense than cutting off anything that's not part of the "biography". Furthermore, the "biography" in question is, in itself, highly "unencyclopedic": it is somewhere between chronologically and thematically-based, it varies greatly in its level of detail and it does not mention the most important: the nine episodes. In fact, it would have been much more "encyclopedic" to remove the biography and keep the episode list and the trivia sections, re-arranged as a text rather than a bullet-point list.
Once more: Sideshow Bob is a character redefined, to some extent, each time he appears. He is not a "person" and so, limiting his article to a poorly constructed biography is absurd and counterproductive and certainly not useful to anyone.
If the biography had been carefully re-written, the result may have been useful, but it, too, has just been cut. This is chopping bits off more or less at random, an easy activity, and not "cleaning up", which is the product of hard work. Eje211 07:54, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
I have a better idea, since you are such a big Sideshow Bob fan, why don't you clean up the article instead of readding cruft? Model it after Troy McClure or Homer Simpson. -- Scorpion0422 21:30, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
I have decided to make the page my next improvement project and I will be working on it here. If you wish to help, you are more than welcome. There are 5 DVD commentaries to listen to that will have plenty of production info. -- Scorpion0422 22:07, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Third opinion

Yes, it's true that laundry lists of random items are frequently unencyclopedic. That doesn't mean that every list is automatically unencyclopedic. In this case, the list of episodes definitely complies with the style guideline for embedded lists. I don't see any reason why it shouldn't be included, and several why it should (Eje211 (t c)'s comment about the reason he came to the article, my roommate's comment as he was looking over my shoulder as I write this that he's frequently frustrated that Wikipedia doesn't have the information he came here to find, and the fact that this character is fairly unique in the Simpsons universe as to the rarity of his appearances.) --Darkwind (talk) 21:18, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Try adding such a list to a GAC or an FAC and see how far you get. -- Scorpion0422 21:30, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
Your reply, in addition to your edit summary for the edit you just made to the main article, indicates that you're taking this rather a bit personally. If you have a rebuttal to the points I made in my opinion, please rebut, don't retort. This article isn't up for FA or GA nomination, and even if it were, I'd like you to point out where in the FA and/or GA criteria it shows that a list is an automatic disqualification. If it were, then why is there an embedded list guideline in the first place?
If, on the other hand, you see something specifically wrong with the list as it stands, then please do improve it. My main point for inclusion of the list-format is that it improves the accessibility of the information as to which episodes, in order, the character appeared in. --Darkwind (talk) 21:44, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Sideshow Bob 2.PNG

Image:Sideshow Bob 2.PNG is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot 04:58, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Some comments

OK, I did a quick read-through and fixed a few obvious errors. Here are some issues that may require some discussion.

  • From the lead: Some viewers have described him as "Frasier as a homicidal maniac" (appropriate as his voice actor, Kelsey Grammer, played Frasier Crane). This is presented as if it comes from an outside source. Do we have a ref?
  • We switch between "Krusty the Klown" and "Krusty the Clown." I think both spellings have been used on the show, but our Krusty article uses the latter.
  • The tense shifts several times throughout the "Role in the Simpsons" section.
  • From creation: "In that appearance, his hair was blue and round in shape." Was it really blue? I swear it was red. I'll have to pull out the DVD, unless someone has a screenshot.
  • From development: In nineteen seasons of The Simpsons, Sideshow Bob has appeared in nine episodes, and has been the main focus of all of them. He's not the main focus of "The Telltale Head," and he makes other non-speaking appearances (eg, "Bart the Murderer").
I was also wondering if this article may be helpful. (It was originally published in TV Guide.) Zagalejo^^^ 20:23, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] GA Review

Hi, I'll be reviewing the article according to the Good Article criteria.

A good article has the following attributes:

  1. It is well written. In this respect:
    (a) the prose is clear and the grammar is correct; and
    (b) it complies with the manual of style guidelines for lead sections, layout, jargon, words to avoid, fiction, and list incorporation.[1]
  2. It is factually accurate and verifiable. In this respect, it:
    (a) provides references to all sources of information, and at minimum contains a section dedicated to the attribution of those sources in accordance with the guide to layout;[2]
    (b) at minimum, provides in-line citations from reliable sources for direct quotations, statistics, published opinion, counter-intuitive or controversial statements that are challenged or likely to be challenged, and contentious material relating to living persons;[2] and
    (c) contains no original research.
  3. It is broad in its coverage. In this respect, it:
    (a) addresses the major aspects of the topic;[3] and
    (b) stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary details (see summary style).
  4. It is neutral; that is, it represents viewpoints fairly and without bias.
  5. It is stable; that is, it does not change significantly from day to day and is not the subject of an ongoing edit war. Vandalism reversions, proposals to split or merge content, and improvements based on reviewers' suggestions do not apply.[4]
  6. It is illustrated, where possible and appropriate, by images.[5] In this respect:
    (a) all images used are tagged with their copyright status, and fair use rationales are provided for any non-free content; and
    (b) the images are appropriate to the topic, and have suitable captions.[6]

After scanning the article, it looks in good shape so the review shouldn't take long. Bookkeeperoftheoccult 03:11, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

  1. Overall:
    Pass/Fail: congrats! Bookkeeperoftheoccult 05:02, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

NOTES:

1. I still believe Bob's role should be placed after the "character" section, but its not enough of prevent the article from being promoted.

2. Reference 23 is now a dead link. This should either be replaced or removed.

3. Biggest issue: fair use for images. The following template should be used for fair use with all sections filled.

{{Non-free media rationale
| Article           = 
| Description       = 
| Source            = 
| Portion           = 
| Resolution        = 
| Purpose           = 
| Replaceability    = 
| other_information = 
}}

In addition, the images for most of the simpsons articles are well over 300px, which violates fair use. They should be reduced in size and uploaded again. I notice Featured articles also have the same issue, so again, its not enough to prevent the article from passing. Bookkeeperoftheoccult 05:02, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Source

There is a chapter that provides an analysis of Sideshow Bob in the book "Leaving Springfield". It is the first one and it is called "Use a pen, Sideshow Bob". If somebody wants to take it to FA status it might be worth looking into. I can't do it myself, because I don't have the time for it anymore. --Maitch 16:35, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Unfortunately I don't own that book, and I can't find it any any bookstores. Perhaps I'll be able to find it at a library.

[edit] The Road to FA

Ideas? We'll need a better cultural influence section, but based on the Troy McClure article, I don't think we're that far off. Just a little expanding, perhaps some info on the later episodes, and a few more cultural influences and I think we'll be there. -- Scorpion0422 01:50, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

I removed the statement and citation to an associated content article because it's inaccurate...AC did not come up with the list; it was the author's personal opinions (as stated on the article's first page). I could not find any independent confirmation that the author is a known expert on the Simpsons, and AC is a frequently diputed/questioned source several noticeboards, so I don't think the content/source strengthens the article. It looks like the info has been picked up and carried across several articles, but there are so many edits to all these articles, I could not trace to the original adds or any previous discussions about this source.Flowanda | Talk 22:09, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
Oh, so you mean its unreliable. Generally, if a writer writes something for a publication, then it is the opinion of the publication, so if we post a review, we would write "Entertainment Weekly gave it ____" rather than "Mr. Anonymous of Entertainment Weekly gave it ____"
The source has been used in several articles, and it was removed from several of them a while back, and nobody ever went looking for uses of that source. It's use as a source is clearly controversial and if you wish to remove the statement, then by all means go ahead. -- Scorpion0422 22:13, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
Yes, those atributions would be true for those publications, but AC is more of a directory or collection of content than an authoritative source on any subject. I think the article is great without the AC content...I'm not a Simpsons fan, but I enjoyed reading this article (as well as the others in this category) because it goes beyond just what fans would be interested in. I don't have strong feelings either way, and I'll be glad to help/concede if there's any gaps because of this. Flowanda | Talk 22:45, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Name

He's never been referred to as "Robert Terwilliger Jr.", so it really shouldn't be mentioned here. We shouldn't make any assumptions about names. -- Scorpion0422 18:06, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Agree. Do we even know what their middle names are? I don't know about Australia (where Alex apparently comes from), but I know that in the U.K. a father and son need only share a first and last name to be considered "Sr." and "Jr." However, in the U.S. the entire name has to be identical, which is why George Herbert Walker Bush and George Walker Bush are not "Sr." and "Jr." As the Simpsons is an American creation, American English is used in this article. Perhaps this is where the misunderstanding comes from? Cheers, faithless (speak) 18:25, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Copy editing notes

Scorpion0422 popped by my talk page the other day and asked if I'd give this article a bit of a copy edit. I'm taking my first sweep through this evening (I'll come back and do more) and will add questions/comments below that I think may help the primary editors to take this article to the next level.

  • As a reader who has miraculously escaped the daily barrage of Simpsons episodes (I hide in the other room with my headphones on while the rest of the family watches it), I think that a bit of a timeline incorporated into the article would be helpful. While I know that individual episodes are linked in, it would still be useful to know in which season Sideshow Bob made his first appearance, and what subsequent seasons he's shown up.
    • All of that information is in the citation templates. The point of the templates is so that you don't have to say "in the season ___ episode ____" every other sentence. However, if you would like an image which has a timeline of episodes, I could try to make one.
  • As you are incorporating additional material into the article, it's important to try to keep the tense of the sentences consistent. There shouldn't be much present tense in the article, particularly when discussing past episodes, critique, and so on.
  • "Once again, Bob was released from prison, and developed a plot to kill Krusty using Bart as a suicide bomber, but later helps Homer discover who is trying to kill him."
  • Who is the "him" at the end of that sentence? Krusty, Bart, Homer or Bob?
  • Fixed. The Sentence was a little long so I split it up.
  • "After the mystery was solved, he returned to murder Bart, but found he could not do it."
  • From the structure of this paragraph, the reader may think the plot mentioned just above and this return to murder Bart are from the same episode, but it appears that is not the case from the references; the sentence probably needs to be broken up to indicate that Bob goes away and then returns in a later episode.
  • "The family later returns and Bob fakes his own death..."
  • Is this in the same episode as the sentence before, where Bob's family swore a vendetta? And which family is returning, Bob's or the Simpsons?
  • Fixed.
  • Verify which year the amusement park ride opened in Florida.
    • Done.

That's about all I will get through tonight; I'll return again tomorrow to continue. Thanks for inviting me to collaborate. Risker (talk) 04:31, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for taking a look. -- Scorpion0422 04:50, 14 May 2008 (UTC)