Talk:Sibel Edmonds

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Contents

[edit] Judges edit

I have little problem with stating "three Republican judges", but it would be much better to instead just name/link the judges. Sherurcij (talk) (bounties) 17:13, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] English

Just a guess, but shouldn't she be listed as fluent in English as well? Easytoremember 12:09, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Sure, tossed it in, thanks Sherurcij (talk) (Terrorist Wikiproject) 19:47, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] 911

Here is a intervju she had with Alex Jones: [1], it should be added to the article. --Striver 09:56, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Webpage

Does she have a personal homepage?--Pejman47 11:05, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Yes, http://www.justacitizen.com/ and apparently she has been hired by the National Security Whistle-blowers Coalition. Check out this press release. Excerpts:
The report filed by SA Graham bolsters another FBI whistleblower’s case that became public several months after Graham’s official filing with the Justice Department in 2002. Sibel Edmonds, former FBI Language Specialist, also worked for the FBI Washington Field Office (WFO), and her assignments included the translations of Turkish Counterintelligence documents and audiotapes, some of which were part of espionage investigations led by SA Graham. After she filed her complaint with the DOJ-OIG and Congress, she was retaliated against by the FBI and ultimately fired in March 2002. Court proceedings in Edmonds’ case were blocked by the assertion of the State Secrets Privilege by then Attorney General John Ashcroft, and the Congress gagged and prevented from investigating her case through retroactive re-classification of documents by DOJ.
Edmonds’ complaint included allegations of illegal activities by Turkish organizations and their agents in the United States, and the involvement of certain elected and appointed U.S. officials in the Department of State, Pentagon, and the U.S. Congress in these activities. In its September 2005 issue, Vanity Fair ran a comprehensive piece on Edmonds’ case by reporter David Rose, in which several former and current congressional and Justice Department officials identified former House Speaker Dennis Hastert as being involved in illegal activities with the Turkish organizations and personnel targeted in FBI investigations. In addition, Rose reported: “…much of what Edmonds reportedly heard seemed to concern not state espionage but criminal activity. There was talk, she told investigators, of laundering the profits of large-scale drug deals and of selling classified military technologies to the highest bidder.” In January 2005, DOJ-OIG released an unclassified summary of its investigation into Edmonds' termination. The report concluded that Edmonds was fired for reporting serious security breaches and misconduct in the agency's translation program, and that many of her allegations were supported by convincing evidence.
Another Former Veteran FBI Counterintelligence and Espionage Specialist at FBI Headquarters in Washington DC also filed similar reports with DOJ-OIG and several congressional offices regarding violations of FISA implementation and the covering up of several espionage cases involving FBI Language Specialists and public corruption cases by the Bureau. The cases reported by this whistleblower corroborate those reported by SA Graham and Sibel Edmonds. In an interview with NSWBC investigators the former FBI Specialist, who wished to remain anonymous, stated: “…you are looking at covering up massive public corruption and espionage cases; to top that off you have major violations of FISA by the FBI Washington Field Office and HQ targeting these cases. Everyone involved has motive to cover up these reports and prevent investigation and public disclosure. No wonder they invoked the state secrets privilege in Edmonds’ case.”

James S. 09:50, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Edmonds’ complaint included allegations of illegal activities by Turkish organizations and their agents

I thought they included allegations of illegal activities by Israeli organizations and their agents as well —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.18.82.93 (talk) 04:23, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Turkish-American???

Sibel Edmonds is not Turkish American, she was born in Iran like her parents. She lived for a few years in Istanbul and can speak Turkish, that does not make her a Turk.Orrin_73

[edit] Needs a re-write

Entire first paragraph stolen from the web. Look at http://www.huffingtonpost.com/topics/Sibel%20Edmonds. Copied word for word. Woodsstock 12:33, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

That page is an excerpt from Wikipedia and even has a link that says "More from Wikipedia". --MattWright (talk) 16:35, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
"Stolen" LOL Even if this allegation is true [which it isn't] how much did huffington lose in the paragraph being placed here? I wish people would focus more on writing articles, not on policing them. 69.155.234.250 02:11, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Sibel Edmonds is Turkish-American, NOT Iranian-American

Orrin_73 has intentionally changed the page twice now - apparently for his own purposes - without any supporting evidence. Please check any and all articles relating to Sibel Edmonds. Orrin_73's posting is erroneous and misleading, and if he changes it again, he should be barred from Wikipedia. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Aajeffersonian (talk • contribs) 20:02, 15 March 2007 (UTC).

Aajeffersonian you are an ignorant bigot! You are the one putting erroneous and misleading information in wikipedia, if anyone should be banned thats you. You have no guts to answer my comments, she is no Turkish american. Edmonds is born in iran, she lived for a few years in Turkey. Are you by any chance armenian or greek? Orrin_73

You apparently believe that people have to be born in Turkey to be Turks or to have "Turkish" in their ethnogeographic identity. That is an incorrect assumption. She is not a Turkish national; she is of Turkish ethnicity (or possibly of Turkish descent). I pointed this out to you before in the edit summaries but you don't seem to quite get it. When you see a hyphenated term like something-American, the two words mean different things. The 2nd word is a nationality; the country of which the person is a citizen (notwithstanding the possibility of dual citizenship). The 1st word can be a nation as well, but often it's not, and in any case it denotes descent, culture, and/or ethnicity, NOT NATIONALITY.
For example, when someone identifies themselves as Arab-American, the "American" part means they are a U.S. citizen, but the "Arab" part doesn't mean they're a citizen of "Arabia". It means they are one of the Arab people. Arab (go read the article) is an ethnicity, a sort of pseudo-race and cultural type, with a population found worldwide, but originating in and concentrated in various Middle Eastern nations.
That's why something like Italian-American doesn't usually mean "naturalized American citizen born in Italy" but rather any American citizen (born anywhere) who identifies with the Italian culture (or some diluted American form of it). As I mentioned before, please read Iranian Turks, Turkish people, Turkmen people, ethnicity, etc., and don't change it again. —mjb 00:56, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Sibel Edmonds - Turkish-American

I am Matthew Edmonds, Sibel Edmonds' husband of 15 years, and would like to put this issue to rest. Sibel's birth cetificate was issued by the "Republic of Turkey", as was her passport before she became a U.S. citizen. Orrin_73 has it exactly backwards; rather than, as he claims, being an Iranian who lived a few years in Turkey, Sibel is a Turk, who lived a few years in Iran. Over the years we have traveled many, many times to Turkey, visiting her Turkish family and friends, and making many new Turkish friends of our own. It is wonderful country, full of natural beauty, history, and the most generous, friendly people one could ever hope to meet, and Sibel is understandably very proud of her Turkish heritage.

Orrin_73 is apparently Turkish, and I can't understand why he & other like-minded Turks try to brand her as somehow being "un-Turkish". Criminals & corruption exist in all countries & all governments - neither the United States nor Turkey is exempt. When, because of what Sibel has experienced and what she has done to try to bring the corruption & criminals to light, her case points to corruption & criminality by U.S. citizens, she is viewed in the U.S. as the heroic patriot that she is - not as being un-American. Why is it then, that when this same information points to corruption & criminality of some Turkish persons, those such as Orrin_73 try to brand her as un-Turkish, or by some, even as a traitor to Turkey? Do they condone corruption & criminality by Turks?

Lmedmonds 17:12, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Matthew Edmonds dont be an idiot, where did I say sibel edmonds is a traitor. Dont write things I have not said and wrote. Read what I wrote before you write next time about me! Orrin_73


I know for sure only one thing: The important thing is what she considers herself; maybe we should find a way to ask herself about her nationality? --Pejman47 18:02, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Don't you think that during 15 years of marriage that would have been addressed? We had to present her birth certificate to get married. She had to present proof of her nationality to apply for U.S. citizenship. Of course she considers herself Turkish because she is Turkish.

Lmedmonds 18:24, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Because this is somewhat controversial, it would be helpful if you can provide some evidence that you are actually Sibel's husband Matthew. I don't mean this as an insult, but we have had impersonators in the past. Would it be possible to make some sort of posting on your official website? Thank you. DS 19:20, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm not insulted, it just seems a little strange having to prove who I am, but I understand, I'm sure there are millions of guys out there who would love to be Sibel's husband and might engage in a little fantasy by posting here. I don't have a website of my own - never had a need - but Sibel does have a website "justacitizen.com" that I could post a message on. Would that be sufficient proof? Lmedmonds 19:56, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure that proving your identity is really necessary -- is anyone disputing that she is Turkish-American with a cited source? The ACLU bio page says Turkish-American, and I can't see where anyone has provided a source saying otherwise. --MattWright (talk) 20:04, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
I see that in the german wikipedia they (maybe by stating that she was born in Tehran and lived several years there) is Iranian.[2] . So, I think it will make no harm to post it in a temp page in her website. After that you may delete that page, and I will go to german wikipedia and change the problem forever. --Pejman47 21:19, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

I have just posted a link on the front page of "justacitizen.com" that reads "March 16, 2007: Sibel Edmonds, Turkish American by Matthew Edmonds, which links to the "Kill The Messenger" trailer. I will leave the posting up until tomorrow. This should give all concerned sufficient proof of my identity. Lmedmonds 01:22, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Well, I'm convinced. DS 02:53, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
I'm sorry, but that doesn't really cut it. What needs to be placed is a file such as http://justacitizen.com/wikipedia.html which states "Lmedmonds is the Wikipedia identity of Matthew Edmonds, husband of Sibel Edmonds". Once it is verified by a few established users here, it can be deleted (it also doesn't need to be linked from the site's main page). You see, anyone could have waited for the latest post to go up on that site and say "see, I added this". Sorry for the skepticism, but we recently had a controversy that has prompted discussion of credential verification if you wish to use your credentials in an argument on the talk page of an article. Obviously you do not need to prove your identity to edit the article and contribute -- cited sources and provable facts should be used at all times anyway over someone who claims any sort of credentials. --MattWright (talk) 17:38, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

To MattWright: I believe your skepticism is a little overblown, and I don't really follow your logic. Are you saying that you don't believe that justacitizen.com is Sibel's site? Or is it that you believe a person having the ability to post to that site would be someone else? You say that anyone could have waited for the latest post to go up - but who would have wanted to post the identical message to the site that I gave here - do you think that it is by "accident" that the latest posting on justacitizen.com says "Sibel Edmonds, Turkish American", with my name (when no other postings on the site carry my name) and only links to a page that already has links to it (Kill The Messenger)? Why would Sibel or the legitimate Matthew post such a strange and unnecessary message on the front page - except just for verification? And your rationale for verification by just creating a page stating that I am who I am & waiting for others to verify it doesn't make sense to me - who is going to verify that & what are they going to use to verify it? Anyone who has the ability to post "March 16, 2007: Sibel Edmonds, Turkish American by Matthew Edmonds" on justacitizen.com can just as easily create the page you are suggesting. It seems my posting is a more solid verification. What am I missing?

I am now going to modify the posting on justacitizen.com by adding "--" between Turkish & American" (currently there is just a space)- there would NO rationale for anyone to do that, so you certainly cannot believe that someone waited for that to happen & then posted this message, and if that isn't enough verification for you I will be truly puzzled. Lmedmonds 01:25, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

OK, I have believed you all along, I guess you just missed the point of what I was trying to say. It is like if I went to cnn.com, read the top headline, came here and said, "I'm going to post 'headline x' to cnn.com to prove I work there" when in fact the headline was already there. I just had no way of knowing whether what you posted here was done prior to the posting on the site or not -- does that make sense? Whereas the method I suggested very clearly shows you are one of the people capable of posting a specific message to justacitizen.com and that the official site is confirming your Wikipedia identity (it also wouldn't have required that you modify the main page for something as little as identification). No one has provided any sources countering what you are trying to verify at this time, anyway (Turkish-American), but maybe this thread can help if the issue comes up in the future. --MattWright (talk) 01:39, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Matt: Thanks. This is the first time I have ever had to prove that I am who I say I am, so I might have been a little testy. I do understand your point - my point was that my posting was so specifically addressed to the issue that it would not have been posted for any other reason. But glad we're now on the same page. Hopefully this won't come up again. It is unfortunate that some misguided person tried to make an issue of it. I am now going to remove the posting from justacitizen.com, since it is rather silly & we have gotten some inquiries as to why it is there. Lmedmonds 02:51, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Wow, I figure I might as well join the fun here. Under the "Early life and education" section it states, "The daughter of an Azerbaijani doctor..." Is this her father or her mother? If father, then her mother is a Turk? Or vice versa? Does that mean she is Azerbaijani-Turkish-American? If so, then we need to update her "ethnogeographic identity." Also, it states that she is fluent in "Azeri." As far as I can tell, looking through Wiki, there is no such specific language. Is this referring to the "Azerbaijani" language or the "Old Azari" language (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azeri_language)? Of course, the entire section is unsourced, so maybe none of this is accurate. Mr. Edmunds, perhaps you can shed some light on all of this? Or maybe somebody has a decent source... Tubbyty (talk) 20:44, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

By the way, folks: often an easier way to do this when there is a site involved is for someone to email _to_ an address posted on that site, and have a response come back including the email initially sent and saying "yes, such-and-such on Wikipedia is me." - 69.17.114.183 (talk) 06:05, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Reminder about unsourced statements

WP:BLP Unsourced or poorly sourced contentious material — whether negative, positive, or just highly questionable — about living persons should be removed immediately and without discussion from Wikipedia articles, talk pages, user pages, and project space.

This entire article could be removed as worthless if all the controversial information that is missing references was removed as very little other than her name and DOB would remain. Even whole sections referring exclusively to the content of a single public document have no source for that document. Seriously. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Attriti0n (talk • contribs) 09:45, 19 June 2007

Your citation-needed template refs and inline comments are appreciated, and I especially appreciate the constructive approach you've taken, rather than the aggressive and counterproductive removal of potentially contentious material as some would advocate. I wrote a bit about this disturbing trend on my user page, if you're so inclined; it's distressing, especially in the non-BLP space, that the relatively recent attention to such matters is often addressed in a bureaucratic manner, without regard for prior consensus about what topics are covered and what phrasing was worked out to stabilize the article. Such hit-and-run deletionists consider themselves heroes, but they leave behind a trail of article volatility unless they get someone to continue the aggressive enforcement. So thank you for not being one of those people.
Anyway, I digress. You're right, we do need to improve the detail and precision of the existing citations, and we need to add some new ones, but I think you exaggerate the depth of the problems. For example, the first one of your complaints that I looked at was for a somewhat vaguely cited but nevertheless verifiable and completely accurate quote that you didn't like just because it was taken from a large PDF. I've beefed it up with page numbers, more quotes, an HTML link, and other details, but it was verifiable as it was, which doesn't bode well for your other citation requests.
I will do what I can, but I could use some help from other folks who've taken an interest in this article. See Wikipedia:Citation templates as well as the more robust examples I've provided in the article already. Thanks! —mjb 11:56, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
That said, it's been another 6 months and there are still large, uncited portions of the "Litigation" section. - 69.17.114.183 (talk) 06:01, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] for people with an eye on the article

Betcha $5 that not only will one of the networks take up Sibel on her dare, but we'll get a barrage of traffic related to it when it happens. q.v. http://www.bradblog.com/?p=5197 ~Kylu (u|t) 00:58, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] UK Sunday Times interesting comments regarding 911

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article3137695.ece —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.106.211.130 (talk) 21:20, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

“I cannot discuss the details considering the gag orders,” she said, “but I reported all these activities to the US Congress, the inspector general of the justice department and the 9/11 commission. I told them all about what was contained in this case file number, which the FBI is now denying exists.

“This gag was invoked not to protect sensitive diplomatic relations but criminal activities involving US officials who were endangering US national security.”

Is that any better?

Interesting, indeed, though I don't see a 9/11 connection. This article is now in the external links as For sale: West’s deadly nuclear secrets, but someone should really follow it up. She has now made some much more concrete public allegations, and the article should incorporate these. Sorry I don't have time right now to work on this myself, but this seems to be an article with several active editors. - Jmabel | Talk 18:35, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
Another, London Times 20th Jan 08
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article3216737.ece
"FBI denies file exposing nuclear secrets theft"... The FBI has been accused of covering up a file detailing government dealings with a network stealing nuclear secrets
London Times 27th Jan 08
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article3257725.ece
Tip-off thwarted nuclear spy ring probe —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.106.211.130 (talk) 13:57, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] New revelations

To add to article: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article3137695.ece . Badagnani (talk) 09:58, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] UK press questioning silence of US press

"US journalists ignore Sunday Times scoop on FBI nuclear scandal" from a Guardian columnist. MilesAgain (talk) 21:16, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Nukes for Turkey

I found the following extremely interesting:

lengthy comment on a White House press release 

MilesAgain (talk) 14:58, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Nothing mentioned on AIPAC case?

Why is their nothing in this article mentioning AIPAC case? See here: "Sibel Edmonds Case: the untellable story of AIPAC" (watch the videos) and here: "Found in Translation" 86.133.26.209 (talk) 15:04, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] 9/11 conspiracy theories

Why is there nothing about Sibel Edmonds and what she discovered on 9/11 conspiracy theories? --Espoo (talk) 10:47, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

She does not believe in the 9/11 conspiracies. People have said it to either say she's just a conspiracy theorist, and people who believe in the 9/11 conspiracy believe she agrees with them. She's never mentioned these theories, and, besides, it can't be in the article without a source. 69.220.2.188 (talk) 01:19, 26 March 2008 (UTC)