Talk:Shuafat

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[edit] refugee camp

This page is about the neighborhood of Shuafat, which is not the same as the refugee camp, which has a different status entirely. I believe the material on the refugee camp should be placed either in a separate section of the article, or in an article by itself. --Gilabrand (talk) 19:16, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

I don't think that's possible actually, given that the two are often discussed in tandem. See this for example Indeed, depending on who is using Shuafat, it refers to an area of varying size, made up of a number of smaller villages as well. We have to look at more sources before arbitrarily deleting information that seems to be associated with just the camp. Please restore it until we can decide how to cover the refugee issue. We can always farm it out to an article on the refugee camp (should we decide it is in fact separate from Shuafat village or town) later. Thanks. Tiamut^talk 19:42, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

There's also this source which indicates that Shuafat refugee camp was declared to be part of the Jerusalem municipality in December of 1988 by the Civil Administration. Shuafat is also considered part of the Jerusalem municipality by Israel. It seems strange to parse out the refugee camp info from this article. Where is the divide between the two exactly? Tiamut^talk 19:48, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Also Btselem refers to "Shuafat refugee camp" and "Shuafat" as though they were one in the same, placing them both inside Jerusalem along with part of the neighbouring town of Anata which is separated from the rest of Anata by the separation barrier. Tiamut^talk 19:56, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

I know that there is confusion between the two, but they are not the same - The refugee camp doesn't receive services from the Jerusalem municipality but from UNWRA. The camp was created by King Hussein of Jordan, who moved the population there in 1966 (see the article linked to the bottom of the Shuafat page). The Palestinian Authority may one day take control of it, but in the meantime, UNWRA is supposedly in charge, and apparently not doing a very good job. The article states that Shuafat is a Palestinian Arab town annexed to Jerusalem, but the refugee camp doesn't fit that description. So maybe the article should have a separate section devoted to the camp and the goings on there which explains this. Here is the perfect opportunity to develop an article that clarifies a situation which is muddled in people's minds.--Gilabrand (talk) 20:42, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

I agree. It could be compared to the articles on Rafah camp and Deir al-Balah camp. Obviously this is a slightly different situation but I believe the separation of the town and its camp should apply here as well. --Al Ameer son (talk) 20:53, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, but I disagree. At least for the time being. I don't understand how we can separate the two, when the sources indicate that they are in fact connected and that both are located in the Jerusalem municpality according to Israel. I would prefer to continue developing the article referring to both, and then if the distinction is indeed made clearly by a source (which to date, has not been the case) we can farm out the material on the refugee camp at that point. Right now, what's being proposed is throwing out any information just on the refugee camp without any clear understanding of where it is or whether the other sources here are discussing the camp or the town (since both are referred to simply as Shuafat by many of the sources cited).

So, could someone please restore the material deleted as a good faith step? Thanks. Tiamut^talk 19:12, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Deletions and change to sentence

Canadian Monkey, you made an edit deleting a study on the effects of violence on children in Shuafat, with an edit summary that it wasn't notable. I think that's debatable and would like to see the information restored, given that it's cited to source that specializes on the effects of violence on children. You also changed the text regarding Jordan and Israel's occupations of Shuafat so that there is "parity", but your change is factually incorrect since Jordan never annexed Shuafat. Might I propose the following wording instead:

After the 1948 Arab-Israeli war, Shuafat was occupied by Jordan who administered the West Bank and East Jerusalem until the 1967 Six-Day War when those areas were occupied by Israel. Shuafat was subsequently annexed by Israel into the municipal area of Jerusalem.^[1] Residents of Shuafat were offered Israeli citizenship, but most refused it, considering themselves to be illegally occupied, though many accepted permanent residency status instead.^[1]

Tiamut^talk 19:19, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

I am not sure what you mean by "Jordan never annexed Shuafat". Transjordan annexed all the territory of the former British Mandate it occupied in 1950. Was Shuafat excluded from that annexation?

As to the deletion of the comments regarding the study, the comment I deleted was "Studies exploring the impact on children and youth in Shuafat at this time found...". The source cited for this actually talks about a single anecdote, not even a study, let alone multiple studies, whose focus is not Shuafat. It says "At MEND we have worked with several front line schools in the Ramallah and Bethlehem areas, e.g.in the Kalandia, Amari and Aida refugee camps and in Tekoa and Beit Jala, and have found very high levels of stress and fear. In one school I visited, quite near the beginning of the violence (in Shuafat refugee camp, which was under attack from settlers), when a group of teenage children..." It is misleading to describe this as "Studies exploring the impact on children and youth in Shuafat". Shuafat is mentioned in a parenthetical comment, as an anecdote. As such, this offhand mention is not notable enough for an article about Shuafat. Another issue is the claim that Shuafat was attacked by settlers. If this indeed happened, it needs to be sourced to a reputable source, such as a news report, not to an parenthetical comment in an article about a different topic which mentions the alleged attack in 6 words. Canadian Monkey (talk) 03:49, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Hi Canadian Monkey. Thanks for responding. I was unaware that Jordan had annexed the West Bank but after doing a little reading, I agree that the term can be used with reference to Jordan. It would have been nice if you had provided a source to save me some time and embarassment, but no matter.

Regarding the information about students in Shuafat having difficulties concentrating and the reference to the attack by settlers, I think it should be included. The source is a reliable, expert source on the problems faced by youth in conflict zones, so he's not speaking outside of his area of expertise. I don't think the reference to the drawings made by children in Shuafat is "anecdotal", it's part of his findings from his stay in the region. I'd be happy to look for other sources attesting to settler attacks, but the information doesn't seem to be irrelevant to this article at all. It speaks to the conditions of life in the camp and town. Tiamut^talk 00:00, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Sorry - I certainly didn't mean to cause you any embarrassment, or to waste your time. I'd have gladly provided you with a reference had you asked for one, I just assumed it was a pretty well knwon fact, which is mentioned quite prominently in our articles about Jordan and the West Bank.

With regard to the students reference, there are actually 2 issues here: (1) was Shuafat attacked by settlers, and (2) is the reference to Shuafat in your source which is about a group working to protect children notable enough for inclusion in this article. With regards to the first question, it is certainly possible that settlers attacked Shuafat (we have plenty of references to attack by Hebron settlers on their neighbors, for example), and if they did, it would certainly be relevant to the article - but we need to source such a claim to a reliable source (such as a newspaper article) that explicitly describes such an attack. The off-hand mention of such an alleged attack in a non-historical article about different subject matter is not enough. By way of analogy, it would be ok to write, in a manner similar to your edit, that "During the Second Intifada, terrorists from the Shuafat refugee camp attacked and murdered Israelis and then fled back to the refugee camp", and source it to this or this news report, but it would not be appropriate to make that claim and source it (hypothetically) to an article in the journal of RENEWABLE ENERGY, which mentioned a type of soil found near the north entrance to Shuafat (where Palestinian terrorists murdered Israelis). As to the second question, I don't think there's any doubt that Shuafat is part of what the MEND group describes as "front line schools", and that students in such schools may suffer from the conditions described. But the study (to the extent there even was such a study) is not about Shuafat, but about children in front line schools. The article does not describe "the conditions of life in the camp and town" - it describes children with conflict-induced stress, and mentions a school in Shuafat as one example, among many. It is inappropriate to highlight this non-notable anecdote about Shuafat. Are we going to include a similar line in the article about Tekoa? In the Kalandia article, too? and the Beit Jala one, too? If Wikipedia has an article about war-induced stress syndromes, we might mention this MEND group there, but not in every article about every locality in which the group members visited. Canadian Monkey (talk) 04:12, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Image

is there a better image we can use for this article? the current one is badly underexposed, and you can hardly make out anything from it. Canadian Monkey (talk) 05:06, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure what happened to the picture, but it wasn't this dark before (which might sound stupid), I deleted it and I will upload a better version of it, but please discuss before just deleting it, deleting things then discussing why you deleted them is usless, since it can be readded, infact, up till now I had no clue why you deleted it, so I kept adding it. shaqip (talk) 11:57am, June 09, 2008 —Preceding comment was added at 08:54, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

I don't know what you're on about. You are responding to a note I put on this talk page nearly 4 months ago, explaining what is wrong with the picture, and asking for a new one. I didn't remove it, but waited for people to provide a better picture, or respond explaining why this one is good. Once a better picture was provided, I removed the old one, and clearly explained why I was doing so. Please take a little more care in the future, to read both edit summaries as well as talk page discussions, and then you won't find yourself with "no clue why" things happen Canadian Monkey (talk)`