Talk:Shrine of the Three Kings at Cologne Cathedral

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What are "unknown facts"? Are they anything like "known unknowns"? Hotlorp

For my part, I'm just mystified by this article. The first sentence should declare what the article is about (I had to use "what links here" to get a clue - it's a reliquary, right?), and some explanation of the English-only reader needs to see the long quotes in foreign languages that he/she won't understand anyway... Stan 03:41 Mar 3, 2003 (UTC)

Visiting Cologne and trying to find out some info on the shrine of the magi... could someone please translate this? Maria Hale. 21.11.04

See also: in other languages, Deutsch, and see also: www.google.com, Language Tools ... could someone please translate this unknown facts?

Dietmar Scherm 23:24, 24.11.2004

I'm adding a cleanup notice to this article, it currently needs quite a bit of work. I don't know enough on the topic to do it justice, all I know is that the remains were first discovered by Helena of Constantinople. Rje 01:56, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I've translated the german quote of 1864 - trying to stick closely to both words and ductus of the original, but I'm not educated in 19th century english, so might not have made a match of contemporary english at all. Unclarities in the original are mentioned expressis verbis: "rotten or moulded" could be either or both; a generic term was used for "the crosier (bishop's crook)", so I assume the coin does not allow distinction --Purodha Blissenbach 2005 July 6 11:23 (UTC)

Provable facts about the clothing in the Cologne cathedral treasure room, taken out of the shrine of the Three Kings: Dr. Walter Schulten is writing: Eyewitness bishop Baudri had seen and is writing in 1881, a piece of material for the treasure-vault was taken out of the shrine of the Three Kings.
"1881 schrieb der Kölner Weihbischof Baudri, der 1864 ebenfalls bei der Umbettung der Gebeine zugegegen war (Anmerkung von Dietmar: Sein Name steht unter dutzend anderen auch im Eröffnungsprotokoll des Schreines von 1864), daß man ein Stück eines alten byzantinischen Gewebes von Byssus (Bezeichnung für feines Leinen- oder Seidengewebe der Antike) für die Schatzkammer des Domes entnommen habe. Und: Kenner führen die Zeit dieser byzantinischen Textur in die früheste Periode der byzantinischen Herrschaft zurück. (Anmerkung von Dietmar: Insbesondere durch Franz Bock, sein Name steht auch im Protokoll.) Tatsächlich ist inzwischen der Nachweis gelungen, daß die Stoffe, in die die Gebeine gewickelt wurden, mit Sicherheit im 2. Jahrhundert, möglicherweise sogar noch früher, in Syrien gewebt worden sind.", in: Bayer-Berichte Heft 47, Leverkusen 1982, Seite 17, Autor: Schulten, Pater Dr. Walter, Der Kölner Dreikönigenstoff, Aus Seide im 2. Jahrhundert gewebt, Seiten 14-19. Pater Dr. Walter Schulten hatte ich 1992 noch persönlich im Kloster Knechtsteden gesprochen, und er sagte mir, die Stelle findet sich in der Bibliographie des Baudri über den Kölner Erzbischof und Kardinal Johannes von Geissel. 1881 hatte er nur folgendes Buch geschrieben: Baudri, Johann Anton Friedrich, Der Erzbischof von Köln Johannes Cardinal von Geissel und seine Zeit, 1881.
Other very important documents about the little pieces of clothes:
2. Bayer-Berichte Heft 47, Leverkusen 1982, pages 20 - 23, Zieleskiewicz, Paula Maria: Der Kölner Dreikönigenstoff, Fadenzählen für die Forschung
3. Bayer-Berichte Heft 47, Leverkusen 1982, pages 24 -29, Wagner, Dr. Hans, Der Kölner Dreikönigenstoff: Bayer - Labor wies antiken Purpur nach
4. Organ für christliche Kunst 14, Köln 1864, pages 235 - 237, Bock, Dr. Franz, Die Eröffnung des Schreines der heiligen Dreikönige am 20. Juli 1864
5. Bock, Dr. Franz, Die textilen Byssus Reliquien, Aachen 1895, pages 5 -7
Eyewitness-report of Dr. Franz Bock: "It was found many pieces of white-yellow clothing ...with small square sample (sign), firmly connected with the bones. " You can see three different parts of this clothing in: Photo No. 169 in: http://www.deca-forum.net/e_index.htm ,image database, simple search, write above in text: dreikoenigenschrein, search, next page No. 9. For investigations, little antiquity purple was taken from the visible threads by the material piece on the top right.

Dietmar 15:54 August 27, 2005 ---Translation is permitted

[edit] More history?

I am a little surprised that this article begins with events in the 1100s without explaining where these relics came from, why they are presumed to be the bones of the magi, etc. Perhaps there is enough material somewhere to create an article on "Relics of the three wise men," but I doubt it, so this seems like a good place to put at least a little more historical context. --Dmz5 22:56, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

I know that there has to be history about their discovery, if not. I don't have time now to look, but the story that should be mentioned (if apocryphal or real I do not know for certain) is that they were a gift to Queen Helen (mother of Constantine) given by Armenian Christians to her upon her archeological crew's believed discovery of parts of the True cross of Jesus on Holy Cross day. She brings them to Milan. Now whether or not she was given the "real" bones of three magi or not I do not know how it could be provable. deaghaidh 64.20.189.19 13:37, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Dating the remains - a question

How in 1864 the experts dated the remains to about 2000 years old? MathKnight 13:41, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Eyewitness-report by Franz Bock: Bei den heiligen drei Königen "waren einzelne Knochen von einem äusserst feinen Gewebe in weisslich gelblicher Farbe massenhaft umwickelt und verhüllt. Auch fanden sich grössere und kleinere Gebeine von solchen Stoffen umwickelt, die, kleinere Stäbchen formierend, so unendlich häufig übereinander gerollt waren, dass sie fast ein festes Konglomerat bildeten und mit Mühe, bei der grossen Zartheit der Gewebe, kaum voneinander geblättert werden konnten. ... Wir waren überrascht, bei näherer Untersuchung dieser altorientalischen Byssusgewebe die fernere Wahrnehmung zu machen, dass in dieser Menge von Byssusresten ein kleines quadriertes Muster, immer wiederkehrend, deutlich zu erkennen war. ... Es wurde bestimmt, dass diese seltenen textilen Ueberreste in dem Archiv des Kölner Doms, unter Glastafeln verschlossen, sorgfältig aufbewahrt werden sollten." (Bock, Franz, Die textilen Byssus-Reliquien, Aachen 1895, pages 5-7; vorhanden in: Erzbischöfliche Diözesanbibliothek Köln); Franz Bock: "In the shrine of the Three Kungs at Cologne Cathedralmany individual bones were wrapped again and again with an extremely fine textile fabric, whitish-yellow in color and mass veiled. ... Upon closer examination we were suprised to see clearly a lot of little squares in the very old tissue. ... We determined that these rare textile remains should be carefully preserved in the archives of the Cologne Cathedral, closed under glass panels." See also photo no. 169, great fragment No.1 (left), in: Image database DECA - Digital European Cathedral Archives. Requires some navigation: go to "image database", click "simple search", type "dreikoenigenschrein" in "text" field, and click "search". In the beginning of 1981, Professor Daniel de Jonghe (Royal Museums of art and history in Brussels), an internationally recognized expert in the field of ancient materials, was contacted by the Archbishop Diözesan-Museum. In his opinion and after the technological features the cologne-clothes belongs in the group of "Late silk Blöckchendamaste", which was woven in the period from 2.bis 4th Century in the Middle East. This grouping of silk Blöckchendamaste also concurs with the oldest substances, the findings from clothes in a tower in the Syrian town Palmyra which was destroyed in 272 AD. This little grave-tower is called tower of Elahbel. See also [1], [2] and a video and most important [3]. These towers are built between 50 BC and 200 AD (not 272 AD!). Based on the research results of Pfister, the Silk fabric from the neighbour tower Iamblik (Tombeau Jamblique) (82 AD) also concurs with the Cologne clothes full directly. [4] Therefore this type of cloth was already known in 1. century. In particular there are similarity to the thread count, the yarn twist, the direction by warp and weft, the Köpergrat of counter-binding and Blöckchenmuster. The weft yarn is made of wool and, with real dyed purple. Such substances were only made in imperial workshops. Also gold was found - a silk thread wrapped with gold foil. At the end of 1981 it was investigated by Royal Patrimoine Artistique Institute in Brussels. The institute was determined that this gold is pure gold with only minor or admixture of silver and copper under 1 percent. Such gold was used at the time of Christ. Of significance to the dating of the tissue was also the knowing how to dye the wool with this fragment No.2 dyed (quite right, see photo above). This question about dark red colour - of whether it is indeed ancient purple, could accurately answered with help of scientists by "Bayer Leverkusen". The antiquity purple color of antiquity was removed from the secretions of thousands of purple snails in Sidon and Tire. About 1.4 grams of pure color additive to win, had about 10,000 snails lost their lives. No wonder that purple was in the finest ancient and valuable red-purple dye. The chemical constitution of ancient Purpurs- 6.6 `Dibromindigo - was elucidated in 1909. It belongs to the application class of "Küppenfarbstoffe". A well-known color manufacturers such as Bayer Ag has the necessary experimental requirements and experience to carry out qualitative dye analysis. Of the surveyed fragment No.2 of the Three King's clothes substance were only about 3 cm². Consequently, it was possible to analyze only very little fragments which were removed while respecting the nature of the substance No.2. This investigation offered - without doubt - the evidence for dark purple rope of Cologne Three King's clothes that it is ancient purple substance. -- Dietmar 15:46, 10 November 2007 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.59.225.196 (talk)