Talk:Shopping mall

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[edit] Discussion

descended from French arcades, department stores

A claim is being made that the first use of the term strip mall was in 1984 in South Carolina. I think the term is older than that. Will take some research. Kingturtle 08:00 13 Jun 2003 (UTC)
Hmm, looking around the Internet, it appears that Southdale in Edina, MN came first, though that seems to conflict with the oral history in Minnesota... —Mulad 15:22 16 Jun 2003 (UTC)
A "leasing information" PDF on Rosedale's website indicates the building opened in 1969—many years later than Southdale (1954). —Mulad 15:32 16 Jun 2003 (UTC)
Or was that 1956? —Mulad 15:37 16 Jun 2003 (UTC)
I'm a bit confused about this article. My understanding is that in the US, the word "mall" is sometimes used to describe a large building containing many shops. In Australia and the UK, such a building would be called a shopping centre, but definitely not a mall.

In contrast, a pedestrian-only street would be called a mall, while a covered mall -- an elegongated, mostly linear, hall with shops off it -- would be called an arcade.

This isn't at all what the article says, so perhaps someone can correct my perceptions? -- Pde

Hi, all of the terms used in the article are US terms. Perhaps you can clarify the UK/Australian terms in the article. Ed Sanville 12:32, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
Seconding Pde's comments; the article presently reads as though 'mall' is the preferred term in the UK with 'shopping centre' and 'shopping arcade' playing second and third fiddle. Arguably the only people in the UK who would refer to shopping centres as malls are North Americans on holiday here! :-)

In Australia, the terms "Shopping Centre" and "Shopping Mall" (or just "Mall"), are used interchangeably to refer to medium or large-size complexes, both open or enclosed. They would normally contain at least two major grocery chain outlets, at least two liquor outlets, at least one mid-range department store (K-Mart, Big W, Target, etc), and a number of smaller specialty stores. These centres will also usually contain a "food court" where patrons can purchase and consume a meal. A smaller version would usually be referred to as simply a "Shopping Centre (single grocery outlet, single liquor store, and perhaps no department store or food court at all), while a larger example (sometimes referred to as a "Super Centre")is usually designated by a specific name. (eg: Charlestown Square, Roselands, Chatswood Chase) The larger examples often contain multiple Department stores and food courts, as well as Medical Centres and Cinema complexes.

Generally, Australians don't hold too much to convention when it comes to referring to these centres. The names with which they are designated (mall, shopping centre, square, etc), are usually designated by the developers, and nobody argues the point after that. MR

I should also note that this is from the outlook of a New South Welshman. People from other states may have different opinions on the matter. MR

I can't speak for what word Australians use, so perhaps it's worth splitting out Australian terminology from that of the UK. Matthew 18:41, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

In my understanding, the phrase "shopping mall" normally implies an enclosed or semi-enclosed facility (at least here in the Frozen North), and "shopping center" is a somewhat more general term (that might include, for example, a complex of single-tenant buildings surrounding a central parking lot). "Strip mall" to me implies a very specific form, in which a long multi-tenant building runs parallel to a highway, and fronts a parking lot which is directly off that highway.

Somewhere in this article should be a mention of Kansas City's Country Club Plaza, which is supposed to be the first of its kind, but I don't have the energy to research it further. 18.24.0.120 03:20, 29 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Why do people keep erasing additions to the shopping mall list? Some of these are quite noteworthy, especially Water Tower Place in Chicago.

Dunno. Some people might be trying to self-promote by removing some of the competition. At any rate, I've moved the list to list of shopping malls (where it originated) so it can grow more freely. —Mulad 05:56, Mar 17, 2004 (UTC)

Regarding Southdale, I have to say I grew up in Washington, where I was always told that Seattle's Northgate Mall was the oldest mall in the country. See [1] here where the date of 1950 is given. I wish we could get reliable data....as it is, I think we may need to change the sentence about Southdale to indicate that its status as "first" is disputed. Jwrosenzweig 00:02, 30 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I believe the key is southdale was the first enclosed mall, northgate was enclosed later ... dml 01:57, 30 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Hi, just a thought - I came to wikipedia looking for a definition of strip mall as opposed to shopping mall... it's fairly obvious now I think about it, and the more modern UK phrase would be a "retail park".

On a related note, strip mall doesn't return a search on the wikipedia page - I'd look up how to implement a link but I've had a couple of beers and don't want to make too many changes.

I think it would be great if we could come to some sort of conclusion as to how the many shops under one roof are called (maybe differently in various parts of the world, but we could make a note of that, couldn't we?).

Meanwhile, the usual, rather boring signs of capitalism in this field—to build even bigger, better malls—has already led to various people and places claiming they've got the biggest shopping centre, mall, whatever. I've just come across one of them, the Shopping City Süd near Vienna, Austria (see my comments). For me it's a horrifying vision to go through the List of shopping malls and find, say, 13 different largest outlets. What can we do about that? Are there any official international statistics? What is counted? Space? Number of employees? Customers/Visitors? <KF> 21:55, Oct 18, 2004 (UTC)

[edit] strip malls

i always thought of strip malls as distinct from shopping malls. anyway, there's enough info here to warrant a seperate page. anyone agree? (thought- i just saw the Outlet mall page. is this considered seperate from a strip mall? they look the same to me.) Joeyramoney 04:38, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

I agree that strip malls are distinct and should have their own article. I believe that outlet malls are distinct from both strip malls and shopping malls because (1) many outlet centers are built as full-size shopping centers rather than just one long building or "strip" as in the conventional strip mall, and (2) outlet malls generally allow only factory outlets as tenants. --Coolcaesar 16:54, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
Add to that the fact that some outlet malls are built as fully-enclosed shopping malls, such as Potomac Mills. SchuminWeb (Talk) 20:32, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
I agree, these ought to be split. --Brandon Dilbeck 05:09, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] many small stores in one building

What are buildings with many small retailers called? This has been common in the US for many decades and is an increasingly popular form of shopping and leasing/owning for both consumers and small retailers. It often also includes collaboration and cooperation in marketing and other things. --Espoo 12:55, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

I wonder if "mini-mall" is the word you're looking for, or if "mini-mall" is too small for what you're thinking of. SchuminWeb (Talk) 14:16, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
I can't think of the term now, but it definitely does not include "mall". The whole idea is sort of like an anti-mall, i.e. small, individually owned "real" stores in which the salespeople are often the store owners and are usually professionals in their field who know what they're talking about. They originally often existed in (renovated) abandoned downtown factories etc. but are sometimes found even in newer buildings. This is rare however because these specialist stores are on a tight budget due to the cut-throat competition of "real" malls selling junk and using armies of usually clueless slaves. --Espoo 08:04, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
I think I know what you're talking about---certain renovated buildings in tourist-oriented areas that are full of small boutiques. I have seen those in Seattle and Monterey. I think they're shopping centers. Does anyone know? --Coolcaesar 18:23, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Someone confused strip malls with shopping centers

It looks like someone confused the strip mall with the shopping center in the section on strip malls. I have only seen the term "strip mall" applied to a long rectangular building where all the tenants face a single small parking lot in between the building and the street. The important thing is that they face the street and they can be easily seen from the street. If the building is large enough that it "wraps around" the parking lot, especially to the extent where some tenants face away from the street, it is a shopping center and not a strip mall. If the building is fully enclosed and all or almost all the tenants face an enclosed interior walkway, then the building is a shopping mall. At least those are the usages I have seen in my travels throughout the western United States. Does anyone have any objections? If there are alternative definitions in use elsewhere, we need to note where and rewrite the article accordingly. --Coolcaesar 19:01, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Super-regional Malls

"Super-regional malls are usually shopping centers with over 1 million square feet of retail space and serves as the dominant shopping venue for the region that it serves."

I don't see how this could be true. I live near several very large malls and none of them dominate the shopping in their areas. A super-size mall attracts people from a large area but it doesn't dominate any part of that area, except maybe the few blocks around itself.

Well, when we say "dominate", I believe that it more refers to in that people don't come to the area for all the facilities that have popped up around the mall. For instance, Potomac Mills has a huge amount of shopping centers and facilities all around it, but I'd say that people from far and away don't go to Woodbridge with the main intention of going to these outlying shopping centers. They travel to go to Potomac Mills itself. That's the "dominate" in it, as I see it. SchuminWeb (Talk) 19:43, 6 July 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Notability guideline being developed

Please see WP:MALL where there is an ongoing attempt to create a guideline for which malls are deserving of articles. Your thoughts are appreciated. Edison 06:34, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Retail park

I suggest merging retail park with shopping mall. Retail park is completely redundant with shopping mall, so we might as well merge. Thoughts? SchuminWeb (Talk) 14:37, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Wouldn't it be better to merge retail park with strip mall? These seem more related, and are both mentioned in the same paragraph within the shopping mall article. Adavidb 17:34, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
Oooh, good point. I forgot that we'd split that one out... SchuminWeb (Talk) 03:42, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

I also support the idea that retail park is just another name for a strip mall. It would be a better merge that to merge retail park with shopping mall.

Afil 03:48, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

I concur. Retail park appears to be much closer to strip mall than shopping mall. --Coolcaesar 13:13, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

I moved the merge template tag to Strip mall and reset the tag at Retail park, for any further discussion before an actual merge. --Adavidb 18:42, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

I think a merge would be a poor decision. The retail park described on here is a very British thing, and merging it into an article which is as American as strip mall (I'm an educated Brit who understands American wordings, but a not so informed Brit wouldn't have a clue what the strip mall page was talking about) would either make the article a bit of a mess (yo-yoing between American and British terms), or effectively remove 'Retail Park' from Wikipedia. NeilSenna 01:25, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

  • As I noted below, "Shopping center" redirects here. This results in an effort to include all types of shopping centers in the "Shopping mall" article. If "shopping center(centre)" is a generic term common to most or all English speakers, the general article should have that name, not "Shopping mall."--orlady 02:55, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "Shopping center", anyone?

In my interactions with the article Shopping mall, I have been dismayed to see that Shopping center redirects here. IMHO, and apparently in the opinion of many other English speakers who have commented, "shopping center" (or "centre") is the broadly applicable term and "shopping mall" is a relatively narrow term that means an indoor enclosed center. I see no evidence that there was discussion before Shopping center was made to be a redirect. Any interest in splitting the article to make Shopping center into a broad article, with Shopping mall being more focused? --orlady 19:36, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

I felt the same way, but assumed that there had already been some form of discussion. If this is not the case, then I would definitely support the splitting of the article in two. Shopping Centers can take on many different forms, while as shopping malls have a very limited definition and are generally a large type of shopping center. If anything, Shopping Mall should redirect to Shopping Center, not the other way around as is the current situation. Perhaps a formal vote could be conducted? -- RedPoptarts 21:22, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Just purged unsourced original research

I just purged the following from the article:

However, most states defer to the property rights of mall owners to prevent expressions of political speech. For example, New York state law upheld the arrest of a 61-year-old man in a mall near Albany who refused either to take off his t-shirt, which said "Give Peace a Chance", or to leave. The United States Supreme Court has upheld the aforementioned California law to expand the right of free speech in malls and balance it with the rights of shopping mall owners to utilize their property as they see fit. See also Kaiser Aetna v. United States, 444 U.S. 164 (1979).

This text is unsourced and inappropriate. I have never heard of this alleged "Give Peace a Chance" arrest incident. The line re the USSC is unnecessary (and violates the "take a worldwide view" policy) as these issues are further explored in the Pruneyard Shopping Center article (which I drafted). Finally, the cite to Kaiser Aetna is shockingly inappropriate since that case deals with the extent of navigable waters, not free speech on other persons' private property. In California, a lawyer who cited such an inappropriate case to a court would be sanctioned by the court and then fired (but of course, such an incompetent person would not be able to pass our state's rigorous bar exam to begin with). --Coolcaesar 18:06, 1 April 2007 (UTC)


If you haven't heard of it, you've never heard of google as its the 2nd and 3rd page that comes up using "mall censorship" as a key word. Maybe instead of ripping out a specific event in the article you should have actually spent the minute it takes to actually read about it. 71.86.194.211 05:05, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

The source cited (the Smoking Gun Web site) only supports the assertion that the defendant was charged. That is vastly different from the assertion that "New York state law upheld the arrest." The only bodies that could authoritatively make a final determination about the meaning of New York state law would be the Appellate Division of the New York Supreme Court or the New York Court of Appeals. The arrest is so recent that there is no way that case could have been tried to a jury and appealed. And if it was appealed, the correct citation would be to the opinion of the appellate court as published in a reporter like the New York Supplement.
What the local authorities charged the defendant with is meaningless, since prosecutors are always overcharging defendants under all kinds of creative theories in hopes of obtaining a plea bargain.
Obviously whomever keeps reinserting that passage is not a lawyer! I am purging that improperly sourced and irrelevant nonsense again. It violates Wikipedia official policies like Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not, Wikipedia:No original research, Wikipedia:Neutral point of view, and Wikipedia:Verifiability. Take a look at User:Ericsaindon2 to see what happened to the last editor I ran into who failed to conform his edits to those policies. --Coolcaesar 06:50, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Classes of Malls

The figures in this entire section refer to only one source, International Council of Shopping Centers. Not only are these numbers typically american-centric, there is no way to tell if these are numbers that people would universally agree upon or if they are only those that a few people hold to. Mathmo Talk 21:25, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Well, the ICSC is the only body for the shopping center industry of international scope. So its system of classification is better than nothing in my opinion. --Coolcaesar 23:29, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
True, but that does mean the section needs to be reworded to make this very clear so that it doesn't mislead people. Mathmo Talk 02:43, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
(edited) The figures are given in square feet and in square meters, the latter unit being rarely used in the US. It is the "International" organization that set the standards, not a "U.S." organization. In the 1999 version [2](listed as a ref) the definitions and size ranges are not restricted to the US. In the latest version, published 2004 by the ICSC (and claimed to be still current) [3] they are listed as US standards. But that leaves us with no standard for outside the US for terminology. Medium sized centers in another country have been reverted from "regional shopping center" (based on the definitions which are still in this article, and which are not stated in this article to be for only the US) to "major shopping center" [4] , [5] . Is it to be up to the opinions of individual editors, or is there some other industry group which has defined "major shopping center" versus other types for various countries? One could quote directly from a reference which characterizes a center, I suppose, if such an article could be found were a reliable and independent source calls a center "the largest in the country" or "the dominate shopping venue of the region" and ignore any objective classifications. Edison 03:20, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
Um, if anyone has bothered to read the standards from ICSC, these only apply to classification of malls in the US, and there is a separate document for Pan-European malls. Outside of these areas, these standards are not designed to apply. Read WP:CSB Thewinchester (talk) 03:34, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
So do you think it is ok to make up any superlative term to characterize a mall outside the US and Europe, or should it be restricted to terminology which can be sourced to a reliable and independent source? This does not seem to be a case of systematic bias unless the bias is calling something by more extravagant terms in one's own country than would apply in other countries. Edison 03:37, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
Did you read the above comments? There's no opposition to the terms, just opposition to using a method of classification on articles to which are not subject of the classification mechanism you're seeking to implement. The classification system used in my neck of the woods is this document from the state government's planning authority, and all articles in my neck of the wood have been correctly classified. I'd suggest you step back and learn more about the subject matter before going any further. Thewinchester (talk) 06:52, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
It is insulting and nonproductive for you to keep implying that I had not read the references or your comments,when clearly I did. Do you have access to the book you cited, "Retail shopping policy 1982 / The Metropolitan Region Planning Authority. Published Perth [W.A.] : The Authority, 1982?" Does it actually provide terminology for shopping malls of different sizes or characteristics which call for one of a size which would be "regional" in the US by ICSC to be called "major" in Western Australia? If the book says things useful in classifying shopping centers, or has a table similar to those by ICSC for the US and for Europe, then please edit this article and add the classifications. Otherwise what is the point of your citing the 1982 book? It appears to be a book available for local checkout at your state library in Western Australia, not something that most of us could access. I will take on editing of this article to clarify that the regional and superregional classifications were amended by ICSC in 2004 to apply to the US, whereas the 1999 classifications which were in no such way limited. Edison 16:00, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Lake View Store

Seems the section on "Lake View Store" is sufficient to become Lake View Store. Thoughts? SchuminWeb (Talk) 03:43, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

I agree; there appear to be plenty of sources to support the information as verifiable and notable. —Adavidb 03:51, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
Agreed; It also needs to be wikified. vıdıoman (talk • contribs) 11:32, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
I added some wikilinks to the section. —Adavidb 04:26, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "Center" vs. "Centre"

Considering we've had a minor flap over spelling, it seems we have something to discuss. I don't care one way or the other which spelling - British or American - that ends up getting used. But right now, the spelling choice is thoroughly muddled, as "center" and "centre" are used about equally in the article. For consistency, we probably should go all one way or all the other, but we need to figure out which way to go. SchuminWeb (Talk) 21:17, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

The general rule I use is: Use whichever spelling dominates in the English dialect spoken in the region in which the article subject originates, or, if there is no dialect, use British English. If it is in the US, words should be center, color, organize, program, etc. If it is located elsewhere, such as Canada, the UK, Australia, or Argentina, use the other spellings; centre, colour, organise, programme, etc.
The article for Abasto de Buenos Aires spells the word centre, which is why I reverted the change. Buenos Aires, being a Spanish-language city, has no native English dialect, so centre is used. If you check that article, you will see centre appears twice, and center does not appear at all. If that mall was located in the United States, I would have left the change alone. For this article, anything referring to something in the US should use an American spelling, while all other spellings should be International. However, considering it is such a minute thing that most people don't notice, it doesn't really matter. At the very least, links should conform to the articles to which they link, which is why that instance of the word should be -re, and not -er. vıdıoman (talk • contribs) 21:36, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
Yes, it is a minor detail, but still, inconsistency is also a bad thing. My main thrust here is that we need to pick a dialect and go with it. SchuminWeb (Talk) 03:36, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
Well I highly doubt either side is going to change. Americans are way too anal about it and the rest of us have it ingrained in our minds. We're always going to have both versions of those words, there isn't really anything we can do about it. Unless you put in some sort of program that changes all instances of one version to the other, you're going to have to deal with both. vıdıoman (talk • contribs) 15:33, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
WAY beyond what I meant. I was just referring to on this one article. I didn't mean people in general. SchuminWeb (Talk) 16:05, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
Well you can do it if you want. Don't be surprised if someone else changes it back, though. vıdıoman (talk • contribs) 16:07, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
While there may be argument about the inconsistencies, people who are editing have to remember when it is connected to a specific country, that country's language should be used. It is shopping centre if it is in Britain and shopping center if the mall is situated in the US, for example. 09:29, 10 April 2008 (UTC)