Talk:Shoot the Piano Player

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was no consensus. -- tariqabjotu 22:32, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Requested move

Tirez sur le pianiste → Shoot the Piano Player — It's the common English title as per WP:NC(CN) and WP:UE. Doctor Sunshine 02:46, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Survey

Add  * '''Support'''  or  * '''Oppose'''  on a new line followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion using ~~~~.

• Support That Doctor Sunshine's got a good head on his shoulders, I agree with him. --Doctor Sunshine 02:47, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
• Support per nom. --Akhilleus (talk) 20:22, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
• Oppose, pending evidence that this really is well known by its English name. It is well known (in English) by its French name, and listed under this name in the (English) IMDB. Andrewa 21:12, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
• Oppose. Although the recent DVD releases seem to carry the title Shoot the Piano Player, I believe the film is more well-known by its original title. Prolog 17:50, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Discussion

Add any additional comments:

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was still no consensus —Mets501 (talk) 02:26, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Requested move

Tirez sur le pianiste → Shoot the Piano Player — Per above. Doctor Sunshine 05:10, 14 December 2006 (UTC) [Edit: I'm getting the impression people think I listed this again randomly, by "per above" I mean my above post (now elaborated at the bottom of this discussion) and not the previous move request. I'd accidentally not clicked the watch button, I'm only human.] Doctor Sunshine 00:14, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Survey

Add  * '''Support'''  or  * '''Oppose'''  on a new line followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion using ~~~~.

• Speedy close. Sorry, but losing track of one's RM is not a reason to start another one. Your previous request closed 10 days ago, so I suggest you respect the closing administator's decision. Also see WP:POINT. Prolog 05:57, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
• Oppose French Title for French film. Generally, movies and novels follow this formula on Wikipedia.--Vercalos 09:22, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
  • CommentSee Wikipedia: Naming conventions (films) Doctor Sunshine 12:06, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
• Speedy close - sorry, but 127k vs 79k is not overwhelming, the previous decision is not patently wrong, and so should not be re-opened so soon. -- Beardo 19:59, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
• Comment - Do NOT speedy close - the last one was improperly closed before consensus was reached; usually, it's just relisted. -Part Deux 20:22, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
• Support - as the lead statement specifically says "released in English countries as...". Per WP:NC, we are supposed to use the most common term in English. Part Deux 20:23, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
• Support, the majority of English usage favors the English language title. And official DVD releases should have extra bearing on the matter, since that is how they are commercially released into the world. As for the IMDb argument from the last debate, it holds no water because all IMDb entries are listed by their original title, regardless of usage. Furthermore, the 127k vs 79k is compelling in the face of the fact that a large proportion of the 79k hits are coming from French-language sites. Girolamo Savonarola 21:39, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment. There is not one English language title, but two. One is used in North America and one in the UK. This raises WP:NPOV (nationalistic bias) concerns, as this is neither the American or the British Wikipedia. The original title is a good compromise. Prolog 07:37, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
• Support. The IMDB comment above is irrelevant: IMDB lists ALL films under their original language titles. The Criterion Collection (see this link for the CC page on the film), a major authority on foreign films in the English-speaking world, refers to it exclusively by the English-language title. No less than the New York Times refers to the film by its English-language title in its review (reg. required). Benzamin 8:54, 18 December 2006 UTC
• Oppose, per comments above and below by Prolog. This film is known by different names on either side of the Atlantic, and there certainly shouldn't be any bias either way. Retaining the original French title of what is a French film would seem to be the best solution. PC78 10:41, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
• Strong oppose. No reason for relisting. No wonder we have a backlog! Andrewa 13:02, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Discussion

Add any additional comments:

• Prolog, you'll notice the only other opposition stated "pending evidence" and I've supplied that. This strikes me as a pretty natural move and I've yet to see any evidence against my illustrations. Instead of accusing me of "gaming", please show me how Tirez sur le pianiste is the more common title. Doctor Sunshine 16:04, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
  • I haven't accused you of anything. I merely noted that a second request so soon is not appropriate. Prolog 04:44, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
• Might this be a UK vs US thing - I get the impression that the UK seemed happier to accept oroginal titles whilst the US prefers to translate. -- Beardo 19:59, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Even http://amazon.co.uk lists it only as Shoot the Piano Player. If anyone can show me any evidence at that my research (Talk:Tirez sur le pianiste#English vs. French title) is wrong please enlighten me and you'll have made me a happy man. Doctor Sunshine 21:25, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
    • Actually, the UK release by Tartan is listed as Tirez Sur Le Pianiste (aka Shoot The Piano Player) (aka Shoot The Piano Player) (Subtitled). Also, since you mentioned Google hits above, in terms of unique hits "Tirez sur le pianiste" gets 790, whereas "Shoot the Piano Player" 776. Another problem is that there are two English titles, also Shoot the Pianist (see, for example, Artificial Eye's UK VHS release and Cinema Club's UK DVD). The original title is the most stable option. Prolog 04:44, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Well, first, I appreciate that you took the time to do that. Thank you. However, regarding your first link, if you take a look over to your left the image still reads Shoot the Piano Player. The Shoot the Pianist title doesn't come into it as it's frequency comes nowhere near the other two. And, finally, your google search is still slightly in favour of the English title as it would obviously include French websites as well. As for the rest, I was totally unaware that there was a required grace time inbetween move requests but am happy to comply. I don't agree with the policy because, in this case, it's just going to waste more of our time the next time someone (...okay, it's gonna be me again) does this. Why not just get this over with properly now? I've been able to make my full case and I remembered to watch the page this time. I'd prefer we were able to settle this now instead of waiting however long. Speaking of, since we've got the rule book out, how long is the grace period? Doctor Sunshine 05:44, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
• Quite frankly I'm surprised by the resistance here. This isn't La dolce vita here - in fact, is there any documented evidence that this film was ever released in an English-speaking country without a translated title? Girolamo Savonarola 21:43, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
• I don't see how we can choose a North-American title over UK title, or the other way round, and expect that to follow WP:NPOV. Shoot the Pianist is widely used in the UK, as shown on VHS/DVD and several film websites [2] [3]. In such cases, especially when the original title is well-known and used in English language countries, the original title is the most neutral option. If Shoot the Piano Player was the international English title, this would be very different. Prolog 07:37, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
• It has been released on DVD in the UK twice as Shoot the Piano Player [4] and [5], and once as Shoot the Pianist [6]. Given the inconsistency and the fact that 2 out of 3 of these are the North American title, I think that's a compelling argument in favor of Shoot the Piano Player. Girolamo Savonarola 10:58, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
  • That is incorrect. The first one is the US release by Fox/Lorber (Amazon.co.uk sells it since it is region-free, "PAL" in the description is incorrect). The second one is the Australian release by Umbrella. So, in fact, it appears the film has been released in the UK only by the title Shoot the Pianist. Prolog 11:16, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
• Prolog, the links you provided list Shoot the Piano Player as the predominant title, and thus more common title. Doctor Sunshine 18:42, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
  • No they don't. Every single link I've provided lists the film as Shoot the Pianist, except for the Tartan Amazon.co.uk link further above, which lists the film as Tirez sur le pianiste. The cover behind that link is again the US release by Fox/Lorber, which is why it reads Shoot the Piano Player. Prolog 19:05, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
    • They're so similar I didn't even notice. Still, I don't see any covers supporting your claim, they may marketing links at the amazons. Doctor Sunshine 22:47, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
      • I'm not sure what you mean, but covers like this and this? The Tartan UK DVD, instead, has still not been released, hence there is no DVD cover for it. Rewind says "Please note that Tartan are releasing a UK release in the coming months which will probably contain a DTS track." Masters of Cinema says "Francois Truffaut's second film Shoot the Pianist will be released on DVD in the UK by Tartan on January 5, 2004." Prolog 23:37, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
• Guys, I'm getting 5 times as many hits on amazon.com (e.g., US) for "shoot the pianist" as for "Tirez sur le pianiste". I think the US title is more common in English as well. Patstuart^talk|edits 19:13, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
  • No one is disputing the wide use of "Shoot the Piano Player" in the US. As the country is bigger than the UK, the film has seen several DVD releases there, most big English language film websites are US-based etc., it naturally results into that title becoming more "common". Also, now that I checked Amazon.com too, it seems that the Canadian release by Alliance Atlantis carries the title "Tirez sur le pianiste". [7] I don't see any point in picking a US title over UK one, when there is a good compromise available; a widely used original title. Prolog 19:56, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
    • That one Canadian release is an import. I believe there's a German one too. Shoot the Piano Player is still the most common. The topic at hand here is between the Shoot the Piano Player and Tirez sur le pianist. Are you saying you'll accept the more common title and that the more common title is Shoot the Piano Player? If so, you can strike out your vote above, just like I did my comment, and vote again. Here's a link to Rotten Tomatoes too, another nail in the coffin if we need one: http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/shoot_the_piano_player/ By the way, no ones saying we can't list Shoot the Pianist as an alternate title as well. Doctor Sunshine 22:47, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
      • It's not an import in Canada. This is not about two but three titles. I would support the move if "Shoot the Piano Player" was the international English title, but as it stands, "Shoot the Piano Player" is not a good choice, because it is common in North America but in the UK the most common one is "Shoot the Pianist". Rotten Tomatoes is one of the big US-based websites I mentioned above. As a compromise to avoid nationalistic bias, the original title can be used, which I think is reasonable considering how well recognized it is. Prolog 23:37, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
        • Check the product details on the Canadian release. I'm still seeing a lot of Shoot the Piano Players at amazon.co.uk. I'm sorry, and I don't mean this to be rude, but we're not going to use a less common title just so you can save face. And, again, you're off topic, we're discussing Shoot the Piano Player and Tirez sur le pianiste here. Doctor Sunshine 01:31, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
          • I have checked the product details section. What about it? And what does it matter which imports Amazon.co.uk sells? Theatrical release and all UK DVD and VHS releases are still with the title "...Pianist", as proved by the British Board of Film Classification. [8] This is not off-topic. You are proposing a move to a title that is used in the US and Canada, but is not used in England, Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales. I'm recommending keeping the current title to avoid nationalistic bias. Also, commenting on other editors should be avoided. See Wikipedia:No personal attacks. Prolog 02:31, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
            • It says import. And that's hardly an attack. Anyway, come on, be a good sport. Doctor Sunshine 04:30, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
              • Probably not, but it wasn't very civil either. Whether the Canadian release is imported to country X is irrelevant, as I only mentioned it to point out that such DVD does exist (regardless of where it is sold, at what price etc.), because you mentioned in your move request that it doesn't (not at all as Tirez sur le pianiste). It was supposed to be a sidenote and nothing more. Prolog 05:21, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
                • So if Canada has an import that's a valid point but if the UK has many imports that's not relevant at all? It is available widely as Shoot the Piano Player in the UK. I like that you're so adaptable, you've presented a lot of different arguments, from speedy close, to original language, to NPOV, to compromise, to national bias. It's kept it interesting, for me at least. Your dedication is admirable but knowing when to concede is a positive attribute too. Doctor Sunshine 07:33, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
                  • Once again, I linked the Canadian release to point out that such DVD has been released in Canada, not to point out that some store in the US stocks it. Naturally import discs between the English language countries, and even outside, is common. Why should I concede? No-one has been able to answer to my points about NPOV concerns, and I'm not alone with this concern either. First you invited users to prove your research wrong, and now your upset since I proved the research to be US-centric and partly factually incorrect. Instead of commenting on me and assuming bad faith, please comment on my replies. Either way, this is now up to the closing admin. Prolog 12:11, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
                    • I'm not upset and I hope you're not taking this personally. I already answered your NPOV over at WP:NC(F), namely listing something first or giving more space to something that's more notable does not break NPOV. You've tried to turn this into a UK vs. the US which is not the case. There's an option on Google to search only the UK, do a search for "Shoot the Piano Player" and "Shoot the Pianist" and it's 848 to 359, respectively. But even with Shoot the Piano Player more common by a ratio of 2:1 it proves they use both titles, meaning this has nothing to do with national variations. It has everything to do with the fact that Shoot the Piano Player easily the most common title in English speaking countries. Doctor Sunshine 18:08, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
                      • I'm not taking this personally, but negative comments on other editors don't really help in solving disagreements. More notable according to what/who? It's obvious that a US title gets more Google hits, especially after a release by a label like Criterion (even I as a Finn collect Criterion releases), as the country is big as a whole, big in the film industry and big on the Internet. But does that mean that Wikipedia, as an encyclopedia, can give less value to a title used in England, Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales? This is why I suggested that naming conventions should deal with multiple English titles, and the idea did receive support. Google hits are nice, but they don't override reliable and official sources such as the BBFC. Prolog 21:51, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
                        • Good. I don't believe I've commented on you personally, rather the methods you've employed here. I could just as easily say that in these constant essay citations, such as opening this move request with the implication that I was causing a disruption, are an attempt to paint me as a villain. So let's call that a wash. So you'll admit that Shoot the Piano Player is recognized the English speaking world over (enough to justify it's use by Wikipedia policy) but you'll not approve it as a political statement? Are there any essays for WP:Wikipedia is not the place for anti-globalization campaigning? Shoot the Pianist is less common. End of story. Doctor Sunshine 22:54, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
                          • I wouldn't have a problem in choosing the US title over the UK one, if the original title in this case wasn't so well-known. My main point is; why go down that road, when we can continue using the neutral and widely recognized original title? And I didn't intend to make this into a long, messy debate about the two English titles, US vs. UK, et cetera. I only looked into this deeper after Beardo's comment and your own invitation to do so, actually. Prolog 23:56, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
                            • You like Criterion, I like Criterion. They often use the native language title but don't in this case. Using Shoot the Piano Player gets it listed higher in search engines most often and won't confuse the masses who aren't as savvy when it comes to foreign film titles as you and I. Because I want people to be able to find this article as easily as possible, which has the potential to become a definitive free source of information on said subject, I defer to Criterion. (And it will still contain all three titles within the first half sentence of the article.) Doctor Sunshine 01:22, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
                              • There is currently a guideline proposal directly related to this issue at Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (films), so we should probably continue the debate there and try to reach a consensus, or at least see if we can agree on some points. Prolog 01:43, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
                                • I don't think this is relevant over there, I'll explain. You've said that it's "obvious that [Shoot the Piano] gets more Google hits" in the UK but discount that because, why? If it comes from the nasty Americans it doesn't count? It's more common in North American and the UK. You've provided no proof to say otherwise. Hypothetically, let's say that we did choose a compromise of Shoot the Pianist, what about the the people that use Shoot the Piano Player? Is that fair to the majority? There is no neutral title unless you want to use the Swedish translation or maybe Shoot the Pianist Player. (By the way, I appreciate that you've indulged me this long, I don't really expect anyone to read all this and even if you did change you're vote it wouldn't make much of a difference. This is more cathartic than anything, I've never debated a politically correcter before.) Doctor Sunshine 19:52, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
                                  • I don't like repeating myself, but; Google hits for websites hosted on servers located in the UK do not override reliable sources. I have not provided proof? Proof like this: "Theatrical release and all UK DVD and VHS releases are still with the title "...Pianist", as proved by the British Board of Film Classification. [9]". I have gone by reliable and official sources and your comments, instead, have speculated with Google and Amazon results. The film was released in 1960 in the UK (as Shoot the Pianist), only in 1962 in the US and WWW was popularized as late as the 1990's. Two users have already agreed with me that the US title vs. UK title issue needs to be specifically settled, whereas no-one but you has claimed that Google, Amazon and US-based websites are the way to choose between different titles. Thus, it does not make sense to continue this both here and at Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (films). Shoot the Pianist does not work either, although it is actually used in more countries than Shoot the Piano Player. How is Tirez sur le pianiste not the most neutral option? It is well-known in the English-speaking countries, encyclopedic, and as PC78 mentioned in the survey section, the original French title of what is a French film. Also, there are no votes here and consensus for the move is needed. Prolog 02:17, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
                                    • Let me repeat myself: They use both titles in the UK. It plays on the BBC as Shoot the Piano Player fer chrissakes.[10] If you don't like using US-based websites, find a better way. Tirez sur le pianiste is not a neutral option because it defies Wikipedia policy, using the most common title among English readers. I don't know what happened in your last sentence but there are votes here, people edit Wikipedia in their spare time so we're just waiting for a consensus. If you don't believe me about google and amazon go ask the good people at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Film. And these questions I've been asking you aren't rhetorical, I really would like to know why the presence of the "American" title in the UK isn't relevant to you. It seems rather key to me. Doctor Sunshine 03:36, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

• If you're just joining us, I don't expect you to have read everything above but this is the evidence we've gathered so far on this seemingly simple debate: The Criterion Collection, the definitive consumer DVD line, uses Shoot the Piano Player.[11] Rotten Tomatoes favours Shoot the Piano Player.[12] You can check both http://www.amazon.com and http://www.amazon.co.uk and Shoot the Piano Player is the winner. Finally, English-language specific Google searches reveals the following results: "Shoot the Piano Player": 111,000, "Tirez sur le pianiste": 22,100 and "Shoot the Pianist": 16,500. Don't forget to check out our newly updated Wikipedia policy at Wikipedia:Naming conventions (films). Cheers, Doctor Sunshine 19:52, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
  • This "summary" only repeats your points and directs users not to read the responses I have written above, so please do not give the idea that it represents a "the evidence we've gathered". Also, Rotten Tomatoes is a US-based website, and no-one is claiming that the US title is not used in the US. Prolog 02:17, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was PAGE MOVED per discussion below. -GTBacchus^(talk) 02:50, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Tirez sur le pianiste → Shoot the Piano Player — Relisting this. There's been no discussion for a couple months but I believe all the previous concerns have been addressed. Recapping, this is the common English title, per WP:NC(F). It also take precedence over the alternate English title, Shoot the Pianist, per WP:ENGVAR. My Google searching was a little off last time so the correct English language-specific results are actually now overwhelmingly in favour of Shoot the Piano Player which can be seen—along with many other pieces of evidence—above and below. Doctor Sunshine talk 02:52, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Survey

Add  # '''Support'''  or  # '''Oppose'''  on a new line in the appropriate section followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion using ~~~~. Please remember that this survey is not a vote, and please provide an explanation for your recommendation.

[edit] Survey - in support of the move

1. Support as nominator. Doctor Sunshine talk 02:53, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
2. Support. Not only does the Google evidence make it clear that the predominant English-language reference to this film is Shoot the Piano Player, but also I believe that since this is the English-language version of Wikipedia, films should be referenced by their English-language titles as general policy, except in cases where they are widely and primarily known by their native-language title (such as Rashomon, Les Miserables). Shoot the Piano Player is not one of the latter. Benzamin 16:42 5 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Survey - in opposition to the move

1. Weak oppose. If you go by the unique results on Google then you get more or less the same number of hits (about 700) for each of the three titles; on the other hand, if you add 'Truffaut' to the search then it does favour Shoot the Piano Player. But it should be noted that Google is not the be-all and end-all. The film was released in the UK before the US [13], so Shoot the Pianist would seem to be the original English-language title, and that's also the title used by the most recent UK dvd release [14]. Sorry, but I don't see what's changed since the last move request. I still think that using the French title is the best compromise here. PC78 19:24, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

There's quite a bit of non-google evidence here. What else would you like to see? Which English country it was released in first doesn't impact which title is more common (if we want to go with cultural ties, it's based on an American pulp novel). What WP:ENGVAR says is that if we can't agree which English country's variation is more common—for the record, it seems clear to me—go with the variation that is common to all (Shoot the Piano Player); failing that, stay with established use (Shoot the Piano Player has been in the article since it's inception where Pianist hasn't); failing that, follow the first contributor (same). Doctor Sunshine talk 05:44, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

That's a rather generous interpretation of WP:ENGVAR. Established use doesn't apply to a French title; preference of the first major contributor should only be "considered" "if all else fails". I mentioned the current UK dvd above, and Shoot the Pianist is also used by prominent UK sites such as Film4 [15] - I think this title has far more common usage over here than what you'd like to believe. As I recall the sites you mention below have been discussed previously, and I don't see you bringing anything new to the discussion.

I don't want to enter into another lengthy debate with you, I've said my bit and I'll leave it here. I will change my vote to a weak oppose though, because although you still haven't convinced me that this move should go ahead, I don't disagree with your arguments entirely. PC78 17:02, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

This has become a question of ENGVAR. Has not all else failed? And in what way have I interpreted it "generously"? Shoot the Piano Player is used in the UK, I'm not claiming it's the dominant title there, only that it's common to North American and the UK. And, failing that, Shoot the Piano Player has been used in the article since it's inception March '05. I'm not looking for a lengthy debate either but if you'd let me know what's missing in the case I've made here I'll be happy to provide it (In the meanwhile I'll provide a few more UK links below). Doctor Sunshine talk 21:07, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Discussion

Add any additional comments:

Here's the updated English-language specific Google search. I'm a little older, a little wiser now, I guess. Wish someone'd caught this last time.

"Shoot the Piano Player" -wikipedia: 490,000

"Tirez sur le pianiste" -wikipedia: 18,300

"Shoot the Pianist" -wikipedia: 16,000

And recapping further, Shoot the Piano Player is more common on amazon.com, amazon.co.uk, excusive at Rotten Tomatoes and used in the UK by such organizations as the BBC and Guardian Unlimited. Doctor Sunshine talk 03:09, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Adding a few more UK links which use Shoot the Piano Player:

• http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/3368375.stm
• http://www.allocine.co.uk/film/fichefilm_gen_cfilm=77315.html
• http://www.allposters.co.uk/-sp/Shoot-the-Piano-Player-Posters_i1570769_.htm

And for good measure, some David Goodis novel covers, listed under "DOWN THERE was also published as SHOOT THE PIANO PLAYER", (the UK version is titled Shoot the Piano Player):

• http://mysite.orange.co.uk/david-goodis-books/bibliog.html

Doctor Sunshine talk 21:07, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.