Talk:Sholay

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[edit] English translation

Hey everyone,I'm kinda unsure whether Flames is a good translation of Sholay. this needs to be checked with an expert, but i think "embers" is a better translation. The movie is also about a subdued but violent emotion (eg. amitabh-jaya mute romance) I don't know - I'll think more. Thinking of writing an essay on Amitabh. --Fadereu 23:53, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

Both are proper official names with which the film was released outside India. What happened to you essay on Amitabh ? Jay 00:11, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] People behind the movie

Shoulden't the people behind the movie be mentioned? thinking of Salim-Javed, Director, Producer, Musician etc ? Dhirad 10:43, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

Sure! I've added them in the Credits. Jay 00:11, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Trivia

There is loads of Sholay-trivia... Why not start a trivia section?

I have a question someone asked me. I have'nt seen the movie.

"What is the name of the town where Basanti meets the two men?"

[edit] Interesting photo

There is an interesting photo on the 4 main male characters, Veeru, Jai, Thakur and Gabbar. The photo was shot during a break in the shooting. all 4 posed with smiling faces, and Thakur flaunting his 2 arms! That's a gem of a photo. I forgot where I saw that. Can anybody trace?--Dwaipayan (talk) 06:17, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

this one ? Jay 23:00, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

Yeah That one. Thanks. Excellent image.--Dwaipayan (talk) 14:59, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Citation provided

For the Citation asked for in the length of reel in the Awards section, I got the info from the book The Making of a Classic, by Anupama Chopra. Please add the relevant info in place of the Citation needed. Jay 23:00, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Famous dialogues

I think that section is bit silly because the english translation is meaningless (if not absurd). I understand that the dialogues from Sholay are part of the culture but it is 100% useless when translated. The sections "legacy" and "famous dialogues" should be combined into a "cultural impact" section which can mention the impact of dialogues in the film or something. Instead of giving translations that are meaningless write a prose about why the dialogue has had such an impact and also, what kind of impact. --Blacksun 07:29, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

Agree, it's pretty pointless on the English Wikipedia. Nobleeagle (Talk) 07:45, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

Shouldn't they be moved to Wikiquote with only a select few added and written in paragraph format? -Ambuj Saxena (talk) 08:52, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

Agree with Blacksun.--Dwaipayan (talk) 12:19, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Stills

Right now it has the DVD cover and poster, but could really do with some stills from the film. The picture of the cast together mentioned above would add a lot to the article - as would some sort of picture related to the reception such as crowds outside a cinema, or whatever. Vastu 08:33, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

Copyright would be a problem with that pic of cast. Some movie stills can be had from the DVD, and uploaded. Regards.--Dwaipayan (talk) 14:53, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

I know that some filesharing sites probably have stills - I dont have the DVD, but could get some from there. Also, I dont know how true this is - but apparently the original ending of the movie involved Thakur taking bloody revenge out on Gabbar, but this was cut, after being judged too violent - the footage may still exist. Vastu 10:20, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Yes that is true. This has been discussed in Sholay: Making of a Classic by A. Chopra. And that original ending's print is still available, and has been shown in some DVD editions.--Dwaipayan (talk) 11:22, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Two notes

First of all: Maybe the mention of the stereotypes of the village should be placed into a separate paragraph. And second: what's a mousi and why is a blind iman a stereotype? Have never seen one in a Bollywood movie, though I have been watching the newer ones. --Plumcouch 22:18, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Zora wields slashing sword of copy-editing

I worked over the article thoroughly. I removed a lot of gush. That wasn't hard, because I didn't like the movie. It may have seemed new and fresh to Indians, but it was same-old same-old to a kid who grew up watching Westerns on TV, and later became an avid Akira Kurosawa fan. I thought the humor was so broad, and so stupid, that it was embarrassing.

If you want to argue that it's a magnificent film, you're going to have to find some critics to quote, because it's just not right for WP to declare it a masterpiece :)

This may be a gender thing. I should think that men would find this movie more appealing than women would.

I'm braced. You guys can all scold me now for my lack of appreciation for this movie. Zora 09:38, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

I'll have the first go then! Actually, your rewrite sparkles in places, but the original version is much better. Usage of words like "revenge" by you to allude to filmfare award actually prove that - we become what we hate - your employing revenge being a case in point. Excising info is a strict no-no, e.g. Character of gobar singh in Chacha Chaudhury comics became extremely popular as it was modeled on Gabbar and the comic started doing even better (it was a success even before). Also, if you feel that something is uncited, slapping a "cite needed" tag may be much better than, say, deleting the info. Pls understand that only recently this was WP:INCOTW with a record no. of votes and that those editors find the previous version of the article to be good. --Gurubrahma 09:52, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Well, no, the version I edited was unfocussed, meandering, and fanboy. Really. The response section was particularly bad. It may be that you guys are so far INSIDE Indian pop culture that you don't understand that material that seems important to you is just "huh?" to anyone outside India. I'm somewhat up on movies, but I don't do Indian comic books -- and neither do most of the readers who will be consulting this article. You will have to explain why the comic is important and exactly what sort of innovation it was to have a bandit chief named Gobar Singh. Chacha Chaudhury comics are like WHAT Western comics? Or manga? Like Asterix? As successful as Asterix? Realistic? fantasy? Was the new character a major, continuing character, or just a one-issue allusion to the film? You're going to have to do some explaining or "unpacking" if you want that bit of trivia to mean anything. Ditto for much of the rest of it. Zora 10:15, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

True, however, adding an expand tag or explain tag would be more sensible than, say deleting the info because newer users would never know what happened or what the contents were before, right? And interested people can always go to the Chacha Chaudhury article - that is the advantage of wiki links, no need to explain each and everything and then find that someone else has extensively snipped and copyedited it ;) --Gurubrahma 10:27, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

I have just one comment, for the time being. The whole "response" section was referenced. If anybody wants, I can give inline citation for every single line. However, I had given inline citations for only 7 lines, in order to make a easy reading. So I am reinserting the old response. --Dwaipayan (talk) 09:56, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Another pont, bulleting should be avaoided as far as possible. "Trivia" may need bulleting. For bulleting in the rest of the article, rather making several good-sized paragraphs is batter.--Dwaipayan (talk) 10:02, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

The response section may have been referenced, but it didn't make much sense to an outsider. Also, it is not wrong to have bullet points. In fact, bullet points are a LOT more readable than a para that is nothing but a list. I have been replacing "list paras" with bulleted lists all over WP for years and no one has complained until now. It makes the article look longer, but space is of no concern here. Readability is. Zora 10:15, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Well, its ok to retain bullets. I did not really complain regarding that! Anyway, "response", whatever Zora may think, is referenced. Of course it may need clarification and explanation (so that anyone from any part of the world can understand easily). However, all the claims made in that section is based on the book by A. Chopra (see references), and so cannot be simply deleted. Please add citation needed tags where necessary. --Dwaipayan (talk) 11:24, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

OK, let's try to talk this out. We have the immediate response: long lines, audience memorizing script. Did they SAY it out loud in the theatre? That wasn't clear, which is why I removed it. Was it like a performance of The Rocky Horror Show?

Did any of the lines of the script (as opposed to whole scenes) become catch phrases? Other than parties, where did people act out the scenes? Or did they? Was that scene in Hum Aapke Hain Koun not typical? Then there's names -- kids named Veeru and Jai? more than before? Kids named after other characters? Names become more popular in movies? Really? Were bits of the movie used in ads? Hmmmm ... let's see, TV, ads, magazines, books, newspapers, radio -- how was Sholay refracted through the media? Responses in the villages? Gender differences in responses? I'm thinking like a social scientist here. If you say that Sholay became a popular craze, I want to know just how. Zora 11:53, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Thanks a lot Zora. This is what we expected from an experienced user like you. This will help immensely to upgrade the article. Now, one by one

"Did they SAY it out loud in the theatre?" - yes they did. I am making that clear.

"Did any of the lines of the script (as opposed to whole scenes) become catch phrases?" - absolutely. Almost every other. In fact, we had a list of dialogues that became catch phrases, but later it was removed (during the article was an Indian collaboration of the week).

"Other than parties, where did people act out the scenes? Or did they? Was that scene in Hum Aapke Hain Koun not typical?" - I did not understand that reference to Hum Aapke Hai Kaun. I have forgot that film. However, I remember a reenactment of the kitne aadmi the scene in Baazigar.

"Then there's names -- kids named Veeru and Jai? more than before? Kids named after other characters?" - no idea

"Names become more popular in movies? Really?" - not exactly. As the legacy pointed out, some pair in some movies were named Jai and Veeru.

"Were bits of the movie used in ads? Hmmmm ... let's see, TV, ads, magazines, books, newspapers, radio -- how was Sholay refracted through the media?" - some ads were made based on the famous scenes like kitne aadmi the scene. In fact, one ad was created with the same cast and used to be shown in the theatres during the internission. In fact, the book by A. Chopra says how people dids not move from the seats even during the intermission to see the ad. It was an ad of Britannia biscuites.

Responses in the villages? Gender differences in responses? - no references.

Regards.--Dwaipayan (talk) 13:07, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Zora - "how was Sholay refracted through the media?"... There must be hundreds of TV and print ads that are spin offs of Sholay. Channels like MTV and V keep making spoofs of the Kitne-Admi-The scene or the revelation at the end of Thakur's flashback tale, or even Veeru's-suicide-attempt. There are a lot of jokes based on the Basanti/Dhanno chase sequence. Comedy on TV is simply not complete without a reference to Sholay. For example, A K Hangal is ALWAYS mimicked in his Sholay avatar, so are Jaideep & Asrani. (No other role of theirs are spoofed.) All this (and a lot more) could appear in a 'impact on media' section. What say? Moreover, a lot of later movies had prominent references to Sholay... Like Jhankar Beats or Jodi No 1 or even a whole new remake of Sholay. I think it is important to note that, as Sholay is one of the most important films in Bollywood, whether you like it or not. Besides making the careers of so many in the supporting cast (and Amjad Khan in the main) and has had a huge impact on the popular culture. And if foreigners don't know about it, well, they should.

Dwaipayan - as late as 2005, Gabbar and Sambha's snippets from the movie, were used for TV commercial for Tetley Tea.

Anagha 22:52, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Mousi

I only know a few words of Hindi -- I'm just guessing, from the context, that "mousi" is the hijra who is comic relief. Shouldn't we use that word instead, since there's a Wikipedia article to explain it? Zora 05:50, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

No "Mousi" means aunt, specifically, an aunt from the maternal side of the family. However, the term is also used to denote a main figure/caretaker of prostitutes in a brothel. And in fact, a hijra community also often has such a central figure. But the real meaning is aunt. Regards.--Dwaipayan (talk) 06:00, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

That's Basanti's aunt, then, the one who refuses to listen to Veeru's wooing? Who drives him to climb the water tower? Zora 06:05, --Dwaipayan (talk) 06:09, 28 May 2006 (UTC)28 May 2006 (UTC)

Yes, exactly. The mousi is Basanti's aunt! I get really surprised sometimes by your knowledge of bollywood, given that you hardly speak Hindi. Do you see all the movies? :)--Dwaipayan (talk) 06:09, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

No, I've seen comparatively few. Not a big Indian community here in Honolulu. There's an Indo-Fijian community, and some Indian graduate students at the university. There's only one local grocery-spice-video store and then there's Netflix. I read books, I read Rediff, Outlook India, and Sepia Mutiny -- and I've been hanging out on rec.arts.movies.local.indian, on Usenet, for years. The regulars there are a great resource. I think all they did was watch movies, growing up!

If there's one thread running through my relationship with Bollywood, it's drooling fan worship of Aamir Khan. Though he is no longer my hero since he divorced his wife and his face started looking potato-ish. Zora 06:21, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Other minor characters

It's a lot easier to understand the credits section if you have a role as well as, or instead of, a name. It's been some four years or so since I watched Sholay. Could someone give role info for the minor characters? Zora 06:24, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Looks stupid without a list of main characters! Adding it. Anagha 22:06, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Films inspired by Sholay

It would be nice to have a list of films inspired by Sholay. I was going to put China Gate in the article, but I thought it would look pitiful all by itself. I know there are more films. Comments? Zora 08:36, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

China Gate. Ramgarh Ke Sholay. Duplicate Sholay. Ram Gopal Verma's Sholay. Well...I no know more.--Dwaipayan (talk) 08:50, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

The movie Karma with Dilip Kumar is very similar to Sholay too as it is about three men hired to capture a man who killed Dilip Kumar's family.Shakirfan 18:22, 22 June 2006 (UTC) Karma is more based in The Dirty Dozen- a man in uniform takes people from prison with no hope of getting out , trains them and takes them on a mission that's almost impossible. Haphar 19:34, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Pramode Chakraborty's Jagir (film) which also features Dharmendra is heavily inspired by Sholay. --Antorjal 06:39, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

There is also a 'Malegaon ke Sholay'. There is a B-Grade industry in Malegaon which makes spoofs of hit films using lookalikes. They are apparently quite successful in comparison to the time, money, and effort that goes into 'em. Also, you guys are forgetting the recent Jhankaar Beats. Though it wasn't exactly inspired by Sholay, the protagonists n the film were Sholay buffs. It had a LOT of references to Sholay. Anagha 20:43, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Merge

Someone put a merge tag on Sholay (2007 film) so here's for comments.

No merge because... it's a different film and deserves its own film box and whatnot... it can be mentioned briefly here... but this film is much more important and I see no signs that that will change or that these two movies should be on one page. gren グレン 12:33, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
No merge These are different movies.--Dwaipayan (talk) 15:01, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Okay. RGV has confirmed, that though it's a remake, it will be a completely urbansetting. No tonga rides for the 21st century Basanti. Too bad, will miss Dhanno! Anyway, point of the tale is that I've removed the merge tag. Peace. Anagha 20:44, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Synopsis

A new editor fiddled with the synopsis, adding details. I reverted. His/her prose was clumsy, and the extra details weren't necessary. When a synopsis fills up with details, it becomes absolutely unreadable. Boring. This happens so often! Fans read a synopsis of one of their favorite movies and their first thought seems to be, "I know something that's not there!" Do have some pity on readers who haven't seen the movie, please. They don't care about the details and they just want the general outline of the story. Zora 06:39, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Widow remarriage

Antorjal, do you really think that widow remarriage was even RARE in an upper-class provincial Hindu family thirty years ago? I'm not Indian, so I'm going only by what I've read and seen, but I was under the impression that city sophisticates would remarry, the lower classes might remarry, but provincial families with any pretension to gentility wouldn't allow such a thing. My sense of Sholay was that the undercurrent of attraction between Jai and the daughter-in-law was so poignant because nothing could come of it. I gather that things have changed in the last thirty years and that widow remarriage is no longer the scandal that it was. Comments? Zora 06:46, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the prompt comments. I always think it is safer to err on the side of caution. If you remember the film, even though quite progressive for the time (I'll admit), the Thakur did mention getting his daughter-in-law married to Jai in a conversation with her father. Also widow remarriage rates varied from region to region and family to family. As we can assume the Thakur's family not being adverse, I think it would be safer not to use a strong word such as unthinkable. But these are just my recollections of the film... and I was born around about the time the film was made so I can't comment from first-hand experiences either. --Antorjal 06:53, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't remember that conversation. I suppose I ought to watch the movie again. I watched it fairly early in my "finding out about Bollywood" quest and I think I'd get more out of it now. What IS strange that actors I thought unattractive at first are starting to look cute to me. I think my idea of "handsome" must have been recalibrated :) Zora 10:45, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

I totally hear you on that. I like your use of the word "recalibrated". I've spent most of my life in the US, but had the chance to be in India for a few years too. I never really got into Bollywood at a serious level, until I was in graduate school. Netflix which came along about the same time was a boon. Bollywood was the perfect "unwinder" because most of the films, at the core, have no pretense of being "high-art". I think part of what what appeals to me is at at the core - the storytelling ability (however inane). I'm pretty green at wiki, but I intend on working on a lot of films... and believe me, I would be glad to have someone read over some of the stuff I write to critique it (from NPOV). There's a lot of stuff out here, but unfortunately a lot of it is "Greek", not English. I guess I'll end my rant here. Your section on films inspired by Sholay has me thinking... and once I get out of the lab, I'll see if I can research that a bit more. --Antorjal 16:19, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

The conversation did happen but for a " Thakur" ( that's what Sanjeev Kumar was in the movie) in a village 30 years ago widow remarriage would have been a huge thing. In Rural areas where "thakurs" belong to it still is.Haphar 19:30, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Okay, the conversation between Thakur and Radha's father is actually one of those 'message to the masses for the betterment of society' kinda scenes which were very prevalent in movies of the 70s and 80s. When Thakur suggests a matrimonial alliance between Jai and Radha, Radha's father has doubts like 'What will the society say?", "Kya yeh thik hoga?" etc. Thakur convinces him saying, if criminals can be rehabilitated, why not widows? Moreover, Radha's conduct after being widowed is in step with the society's expectations of widows - they should be unhappy, depressed, subdued, and wearing white. I don't know how much effect the 'widow remarriage is okay' message had on the rural classes, but the message was definitely intended. Anagha 20:38, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Soundtrack

Current list seems complete to me. Can we remove the 'expand section' notice? Also I've added a bit of trivia regarding Sholay dialogue-cassettes. Should it be moved to the trivia section? Anagha 21:14, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Great job! I am an RDent RD fan (pun intended). I've listened to and analyzed the soundtrack innumerable times and know a lot about the various releases (both analog and digital). I'll hack that section pretty soon. Unfortunately I have a meeting in real-life tomorrow so I can't do that today. --Antorjal 17:29, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Worked through it. I added some material and reformatted the rest. I've destubbed the section. Feel free to edit/revert/recreate/discuss as you see fit. :-D --Antorjal 14:17, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Good work! I didn't know some of that! :) I have one small quibble though. sad version played to highlight a flashback... ummm... not necessarily. Sad versions of a happy song appeared, whenever the happy story started getting tragic. Latest examples: Kuch Kuch Hota Hai... Both the happy and sad versions occur in the same flashback. Similarly in Kaho Na... Pyaar Hai the heroine sings a sad version in the present. Wot say? Anagha 20:28, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] EXPAND!

The Production section needs to be larger, but not sure what you could put in there. Also, the Response section should have Critical response and Box office. Cbrown1023 02:05, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Good points. Good re-organization. Thank you! Zora 05:20, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Springcleaning

I fixed up small problems here and there. I rewrote the synopsis slightly. No need to mention flashbacks -- it's just confusing. I also dropped all discussion of widow remarriage. If we want to touch on that, perhaps a para later in the article, discussing how the film's treatment of widow remarriage was progressive for the time? Zora 22:49, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] What are the neutrality issues?

I noticed that this article was tagged for neutrality but no reasons were given in the talk-page? What are the issues with respect to neutrality? Please don't just tag an article without explaining how to improve it... or better yet without improving it yourself. Antorjal 17:28, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "Flames of Sun"?

Hi. Does sholay really mean Flames "of sun"? I must say this is the first time i've heard such usage. I think it just means embers or flames. Amit 05:19, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Rare Sholay Set Photo Old 0075.jpg

Image:Rare Sholay Set Photo Old 0075.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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BetacommandBot (talk) 03:58, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Versions

I added some text referring to the various release versions in appropriate places. I bought 4 different copies of the film to determine the differences!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.215.115.31 (talk) 17:44, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

And now some half-wit has reverted my changes.. Sigh. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.215.115.31 (talk) 19:40, 20 May 2008 (UTC)