Talk:Shire (Middle-earth)

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[edit] References?

Can anyone provide references for the material cited? Dystopos 15:34, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

They're accumulating, slowly. Elphion (talk) 21:00, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Area of the Shire

Factual dispute: Tolkien (in an essay on the Languages of Middle-earth) describes The Shire as having an area of 18,000 square miles (more than the size of Yorkshire). A triangular area 100 x 50 miles would have an area of around 2500 square miles, leaving a lot of territory unaccounted for. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.92.67.66 (talk • contribs) 18:36 4 June 2003 (UTC)

As with Glorfindel, it's worth adding a little discussion of the apparent contradiction, this being the kind of value that Wikipedia adds for the Tolkien reader. Stan 20:37 4 Jun 2003 (UTC)
I'm not sure why "A triangular area 100 x 50 miles" has any relevance; that doesn't describe the Shire. The figure 18,000 square miles comes from multiplying the east-west extent (40 leagues = 120 miles) by the north-south extent (50 leagues = 150 miles), as given in the Prologue. Tolkien mentions the 18,000 figure explicitly (as mentioned above) in his essay on translating names from LotR into other languages, reprinted in A Tolkien Compass. It is probably a high estimate (as there is nothing to indicate that the area is truly rectangular), but it won't be dramatically off. An elliptical region with the same extents would be 14,137 square miles, almost certainly a low estimate. Elphion 19:53, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
Image:002 westland with beleriand 2007-08-10.8a.png
Calculating from the data of my own vector map that was created from the folding C. Tolkien map that came with Unfinished Tales the Shire is 16491.1122 square statute miles. The map I posted to the left has a side length of 300 statute miles (meaning in the 1200px·1200px version one pixel side length equals a quarter statute mile). The extension from the northernmost point to the southernmost point (Sarn Ford) is ≈ 161 statute miles. The extension from the westernmost point to the easternmost point is ≈ 174 miles. Cush 13:02, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
I was immediately interested in your map, for I have never seen any Tolkien-generated map (in Unfinished Tales or anywhere else) that shows the boundaries of the Shire or the various farthings beyond the edges of the frustratingly limited Shire map originally published in The Fellowship of the Ring. It's a nice map, but the boundaries shown go far beyond any authorial authority that I have seen. What edition of Unifinished Tales has this information? I'm skeptical of the reliability of this additional detail (and the area figure you derive from it). For example, Tolkien's Shire map indicates that the boundary between the East and South Farthings follows the River Shirebourne all the way to the Brandywine. Elphion 12:26, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
If you think the map is inaccurate I can change it anytime. I'd be glad about more information. For now I have used mountain ridges and roads to interpolate reasonable borders. I have also looked at maps made by others. Cush 23:16, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

It's not so much a question of accuracy or inaccuracy (though there are some details in your map that don't accord with the evidence of Tolkien's books). The problem is that maps like yours are speculation: they go beyond what Tolkien has provided. The odds are minimal that your map (or any map drawn after the fact) would agree with what Tolkien would have drawn, and therefore it does not constitute reasonable evidence in a discussion (say) of the "true" area of the Shire.

Speculation is not always bad, but it's hard to do well. (Karen Fonstad's Atlas of Middle-Earth for example has a bad track record, with many details that contradict the evidence of the books.) What we should be posting in Wikipedia is information backed by Tolkien's books, not information invented because, for example, it would be nice to have a map. Anyone can draw a map, and any two of these are not likely to agree. Who's to say which is "right"? Elphion 18:10, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Image:Arda001.gif
Well, I suppose my way of map making is not any different from those who have published their maps in books so far. I put what I can obtain from text sources into my maps. Of course I have not read all there is, so I am more than happy to have someone point out geographic info to me. Right now I am trying to make a vector map out of one of Tolkien's own sketches to merge with the data I already have. Cush 22:27, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Bagendwide.jpg

Image:Bagendwide.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in Wikipedia articles constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.BetacommandBot 23:58, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Shirewide.jpg

Image:Shirewide.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in Wikipedia articles constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.BetacommandBot 15:49, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Smeagol and Deagol

The last edit claims that Smeagol and Deagol are brothers. It is well known that they were related, but as far as I can tell from other scources, they are cousins. Could someone please verify this? Hobbes543 17:37, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Changed brother to friend. From my research on this, Tolkien at best hinted that they were some how related, but he never fully defined their relationship, thus brother is an innaccurate term. Tolkien did how ever make it clear that they were friends. Hobbes543 03:08, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Scary?

Why did I get redirected to this page when I looked up "scary"?

The only entity with the name "Scary" is a village in the Shire. The redirect should have pointed to the Eastfarthing section. Súrendil 09:21, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
Or possibly a dab can be created... Súrendil 09:48, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Southfarthing

Can anyone provide actual citations placing Gamwich and Cotton in the Southfarthing? Or for Longbottom being founded by Toby Hornblower and not existing earlier (as seems reasonably clear from the wording of the Prologue)? Or for the Southfarthing being "rural and fertile" (a reasonable inference but not stated anywhere that I can find)? Thanks Elphion 16:48, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Hearing none, I removed these references. Elphion 02:33, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Images from Matěj Čadil

There are images included from this person. A quick glance in English Google shows no references to their art. The images appear to come from a Czech fan Website, where the copyright legitimacy cannot be established. Without any apparent legal connection to the books or films, and apparently fan art, these don't belong in Wiki. They are removed.

24.130.9.210 (talk) 05:11, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Iceland

Why is Iceland mentioned in the section about farthings, and, more importantly, why is there a map of Iceland? It's irrelevant, let's get rid of it. Ingridjames (talk) 05:07, 17 May 2008 (UTC)