Talk:Shiny Shoe Music

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Articles for deletion This article was nominated for deletion on July 16, 2006. The result of the discussion was keep.

Contents

[edit] Origins

I don't know if I would consider Shlomo Carlebach the origin of Shiny Shoe Music. In fact many would argue that he is the father of modern Jewish folk/rock music. I'm not sure who the first Shiny Shoe Musician would be, though I would suggest Mordechai Ben David - C. Rubin

I don't disagree re: Carlbach, but I'm not entirely sure MBD was the first. I just moved it, then put it back when it was deleted, because it needed someone :-) Hudgie 22:07, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
Better no information than wrong information. Also, read WP:NOR.—msh210℠ 16:08, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Name lists

Please keep name lists alphabetical by first. I don't know enough Wiki coding, is there a way to have lists automatically sort alphabetically? Hudgie 22:07, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Deletion discussion

[edit] Where this article belongs

I nominated this article for deletion because its title is a neologism and not an accepted term. This is usually acceptable as a reason to delete, but on the deletion-discussion page people noted that that might not be a good enough reason here because, although the title of the article ("shiny show music") is a neologism, the topic of the article (this type of music) definitely exists and is not something new that someone just thought up. So it was suggested that I withdraw the nomination for deletion and instead we try here to find an appropriate title for the article. Thoughts on an appropriate title?—msh210℠ 23:56, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, as I said during the afd discussion, I think it fits quite well at Hasidic music unless there is more than one kind of Hasidic music [which there certainly is]... And so, therefore my recommendation morphs into either "write an article on Hasidic music, in which the subject of this article is mentioned, and move this article to Hasidic music (style)" or, move this article to Hasidic music and make sure to mention prominently in the article lead that the article is not about the music of Chasidic Jews, but rather about a particular style of music called "Chasidic music" (or whatever it's called)... and if, as I said in the afd discussion, at some point someone else comes along and writes an article about Chasidic music in general as opposed to this specific part of the spectrum of Chasidic music, then the parts of that article that refer specifically to this style of music can be, at that time, excised and moved to Hasidic music (style) [or whatever]." Cheers, Tomertalk 03:42, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
Whatever it is, it's not "Hasidic music", it covers quite a large genre actually. The Hasidim do have their own "modern" music, but this is not primarily it. IZAK 08:58, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Contemporary Jewish Orthodox music

How about Contemporary Jewish Orthodox music as the name for this article? IZAK 09:10, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

No, "contemporary" is not a good idea, in my opinion, as the article is about the genre of music that's current now, and now what'll be currnet in 100 years; someone in 100 years reading "Contemporary..." will say "Huh? That's not contemporary!". In other words, that title is too now-centric. Perhaps something like Jewish music of the late twentieth century? (Although that title is way too clunky (long) for my tastes.)—msh210℠ 16:05, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
Frankly, Shiny Shoe Music is a better name than both of your proposals, which are descriptions rather than names. What is it called? It is called "Shiny Shoe Music". It is called "Chassidic Music". Nobody calls this style of music either "Contemporary Jewish Orthodox music" or "Jewish music of the late twentieth century", both of which read like category names, rather than article names, which is what this discussion concerns. Tomertalk 23:39, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
To msh210: Don't worry, about 100 years from now we will all be dead and this entire encyclopedia will be dated cyber-garbage! Obviously someone has jumped the gun here and created a name that no-one has heard of (what are the "Shiny Shoes" in any case? If say someone is wearing sneakers when they listen or dance to this music does it become "Smelly Sneaker Music" ?), whereas the word "contemporary" accurately describes what is heppening at the present time and which is also a major job of this encyclopedia. IZAK 07:37, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
To Tomer: I assure you that if you were to walk over to a random collection of people who actually listen to and are "into this music" (including many people I know personally) the words "Shiny Shoe Music" would draw a blank stare from 99.9999999999% of them. This seems to be some name coined by a DJ and as such is just a crass neologism whereas Contemporary Jewish Orthodox music calls it what it is. And there is absolutely no problem if it sounds like the name of a category, because actually important categories almost always have articles that are the mirror-images of the main articles connected with thme, indeed that is what the template {{Catmore}} is used for on category pages -- to connect the category with its main article! IZAK 07:37, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
IZAK, I have no doubt that your assertion is "spot on", the point I was making is that people call it "Chassidic music", which is why I said that makes such a title appropriate. I honestly don't have a dog in this fight...I seriously don't know squat about this "style" of music. My only interest here is in rescuing what seems to be a relevant phenom in Jewish music from deletion...along with stylistic interest in making sure that the random reader isn't faced with compleley bewildering information. Tomertalk 08:55, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
Tomer: I do get where you are coming from. Your argument boils down to that since all very religious Jews are basically called "Chassidic" by their less-religious brethren, therefore the music of the "Chassidic-looking" Jews should be called "Chassidic music". But this is incorrect because there are huge differences between the various types of so-called "Chassidic Jews" who should correctly be called Haredi Jews in this discussion -- with Hasidic Jews being a sub-set of Haredi Jews but not making up the entire group. To repeat my point, as above, that to call this music "Chassidic music" would be a misnomer because the people who listen to it and play it are generally not that genuinely "Chassidic" and even they would know what real Chassidic music is. You need to understand that every single Hasidic group has its own genre and tradition of music (often composed by their rebbes themselves) and it's not the type you find in this article's menu. This so-called "Shiny Shoe Music" borrows much more from MODERN secular (and even heathenistic) pop, country, band music and that its listeners are often warned by their rebbes, rosh yeshivas, and mashgiach ruchanis in yeshivas and bais medrash NOT to listen to it because in their view it is treif and forbidden, which as you see cannot make it "Chassidic" regardless of what assimilated Jews who don't pay much attention to it (and why should they, they can listen to Madonna or Simon and Garfunkel etc, etc) may think it is. On the other hand, there is a real field of genuine Chassidic music with it's own tunes, lyrics, compositions, and times when sung, almost always at weddings, Shabbat, Jewish holidays, and any kind of festive occasions, and I have heard with my own ears when instructions are given at such events NOT to play what is labelled here as ("goyish") "Shiny Show Music" or anything of its kind. So "Chassidic" music it's not. Honestly, it does not have name, as that would be too sophisticated for it at this stage, and I guess that's why some dude is trying to push this neologism of "Shiny Shoe Music" to stick his proverbial foot/agenda into the door via Wikipedia. And thus my NPOV original suggestion of Contemporary Jewish Orthodox music is accurate and valid, and most importantly it's very parev. IZAK 09:58, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

My dear IZAK...despite your claim to the contrary, you clearly don't know where I'm coming from. I do not regard all blackhatters as Chasidim, and the assertion that I do is more than just a little bit offensive to me. The only reason I've said that "Chasidic music" makes a good choice for the article name is because that's what User:msh210 has said on several occasions is what some people call it. Unlike your suggestion, I'm interested in using a verifiable name instead of inventing my own. Tomertalk 16:49, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Might I attempt to clarify? The term, in Hebrew, for this type of music, is "Chasidic music" or "Chasidic songs" [in Hebrew] (as the article itself indicates, but which I know independently). That's what it's called, despite the fact that people who use the term know that many -- most -- of the songs have nothing to do with Chasidism.—msh210℠ 16:57, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] What would it be called if secular?

What would non-Jews unacquainted with this type of music call it if it were the same tunes (and tempos, etc.) but with non-Jewish words? Is it, for example, a type of rock and roll? Or a type of rhythm and blues? Or what? Whatever it is — let's say it woudl be called Whatever — we can then name this article Jewish whatever. What do you all think about this?—msh210℠ 02:53, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Other suggestions

Perhaps, there could be other ways of doing this:

  • Jewish music (modern); or Jewish music (Orthodox)
  • Jewish music (Hasidic);
  • Jewish music (Sephardi); etc

But the "Shiny Shoes" have to go! IZAK 09:58, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

I dislike Jewish music (modern) for the same reason I disliked "contemporary" above (and still do).—msh210℠ 16:58, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Hello folks

Just because this article was rescued from deletion is no excuse to lose interest in it. ALL the discussion in the AfD indicated agreement that the article is inappropriately named. Having been spared deletion, however, a new name remains the highest priority for this article, presently. Tomertalk 07:12, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree wholeheartedly. We must move this article.—msh210℠ 02:53, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

If necessary, I will open a strawpoll. Please do not vote based on kneejerk "but Chasidhim don't listen to this kind of music!" arguments. Such rationale relies far too heavily on original research. Tomertalk 07:15, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

  1. Rename Chasidic music.
    1. Tomertalk 07:14, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
  2. Rename some other random title.

[edit] Request for comment: title of this article

There has ben discussion at AFD and on this talk page about where this article belongs (what its title should be). Consensus seems to be that the article must be moved, as the music in question is not called "shiny shoe music", but no consensus has been reached about wjhither to move it, and discussion seems to have hround to a halt. Attempts to include WikiProjects [1] [2] have failed: no one from those WikiProjects has commented here. So I am requesting comment.

Suggestions that have already been made
  • Shiny Shoe Music (ChaimR [3])
  • Hasidic music (Tomer [4])
  • Chasidic music (ibid.)
  • "Hasidic music (style) or whatever" (ibid.)
  • Contemporary Jewish Orthodox music (IZAK [5])
  • Jewish music of the late twentieth century (msh210 [6])
  • Jewish /whatever/, where the same style of music, were it secular, would be called /Whatever/ (msh210 [7])
  • Jewish music (modern) (IZAK [8])
  • Jewish music (Orthodox) (ibid.)
  • Jewish music (Hasidic) (ibid.)
  • Jewish music (Sephardi) (ibid.)
Comments

[edit] Another idea: merge

{{mergeinto|Jewish music|September 2006]]

Done.—msh210℠ 17:33, 28 September 2006 (UTC)